Tiering System Revisions - Part 4 (Staff Only)

[Ultima_Reality]

CM Yog will probably be 0 alongside Azzy if Fan's revisions go as expected, idk about Demonbane Yog though.

 

[Ravenous4th]

Masadaverse from what I heard are all in the same hiearchy but just infinitely more powerful than another.

Not saying that they are all High 1-A as that matter is up to debate and will be discussed soon, but High 1-A beings can have their own meta-hierarchy.

 

[Siperri123]

As far as I see, the characters who are solidly High 1-A (at least in my book) are the following:

Wait, I looked at the records of the leviathan, anu, padomay, utu, enil, I found it only from level 1-A to 1-A +.

I apologize for commenting on staff-only topics.

 

[Antvasima]

Why would the Overvoid, Anu, and Padomay be tier High 1-A? They do not seem to remotely qualify to me.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Anu and Padomay qualify because they transcend an infinite hierarchy of timeless, spaceless chaotic realms which each represent higher infinities in relation to lesser ones, and themselves exist beyond of infinitely-dimensioned realms like Oblivion and Aetherius. I made a revision thread about that.

The Overvoid qualifying is due to more abstract reasons, mainly due to the fact it's supposed to be literally the blank page of the comicbook from which everything springs, and would be completely outside of the "ground" or "perspective" (as Sera and DarkLK put it) / whateveridontcarewhatwecallit of power shared by lesser entities who are themselves Outerversal in the verse. Though that's assuming they'll still be 1-A in the new system and mostly from Final Crisis. I may need to catch up to more recent mentions of it, since I haven't been following Justice League and all that jazz as of late.

There are also some statements I've seen in Animal Man regarding the "Real World" and its relation to the world of the comic which may put it at this level, though I may need to take another look at the scans.

 

[Antvasima]

1) Okay. That seems fine then.

2) I am still very uneasy with placing perceiving base level 1-A characters as fiction on a level with characters that transcend an infinite number of such differences/hierarchies. As such, I would prefer if The Overvoid was just placed as a regular 1-A.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

It's not really about just perceiving baseline and above baseline 1-As as fiction as much as surpassing the state of being which they occupy, though; I believe we had already went over this in the previous thread. To quote an argument from DarkLK:

To prove the transcendence of a hierarchy, we do not necessarily need an infinite hierarchy, although its presence greatly simplifies the proof.

Let us assume that we have three outerversal characters: Ou-1, Ou-2 and Ou-X.

Ou-1 is baseline or somewhere higher.

Ou-2 is superior to Ou-1 by one qualitative step, one level of infinity or something like that.

And Ou-X is superior to both so much so that from this point of view there is no difference between Ou-1 and Ou-2. This is a completely different type of superiority. That is, the expansion of the number of steps (levels of the same order as the difference between Ou-1 and Ou-2) will not allow you to somehow approach to Ou-X.

In this way, Ou-X can get a higher tier even without the actual endless steps. It simply has to surpass the very perspective that shares such steps. You just need to prove that its superiority cannot be achieved by just multiplying the power differences (even endless) that exist between other entities within this fictional Verse.

 

[Malomtek]

We have characters such as the Presence, who are already well above baseline 1-A, as literal fiction in the Mind of Monitor, although I myself would more-or-less equate the two, as they're both basically aspects of DC's supreme god.

Then we have stuff like The Leviathan, itself well above base 1-A, which would also be seen as either equal or lesser than the Overvoid.

In fact, I could write a whole blog post about all the times Monitor-Mind *basically* appeared, even before its *proper* appearance in Final Crisis.

 

[Antvasima]

The Unwritten is not a lesser part of DC cosmology. In fact, I think that it wanted to include all of DC Comics as a minor part of its hierarchy at one point, but it ended up as being separate.

Anyway, the problem is that I thought that each reality-fiction difference step in Umineko no Naku Koro ni or Ichiban Ushiro no Daimaou was equal to what Ultima described, so I remain very skeptical about The Overvoid.

 

[Agnaa]

I am kinda worried about the Overvoid's reasoning but I can sort of see where it's coming from.

There is a hierarchy below the Overvoid with multiple steps, which the Overvoid transcends in a completely different fashion.

But then again, I'd expect that this sort of thing with reality-fiction differences could easily crop up within more metafiction-focused outerversal verses that we wouldn't want to put this high. Since as it seems from DarkLK's post, all this would require is there being three characters, two of which have different power levels within the same level of reality, and one of which has a reality-fiction difference on them.

Now that I think about the implications of it, I wouldn't be fine with Overvoid-type high 1-As.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Of course people are still saying only the animanga profiles get the highest of tiers. No, it's not just Umi and Ichiban that take the tier.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

I believe the explanation given by DarkLK is moreso just an example to drive the point home. The main reasoning behind it, I believe, is whether the character represented by Ou-X can be reasonably defined as being just one step removed from Ou-1 and Ou-2, when it just completely supersedes both of them to an extent where there is no real difference between the level of existence occupied by the former and the one occupied by the latter.

I think it just comes to be about how the verse defines the transcendence which Ou-X holds in relation to Ou-1 and Ou-2, since it can either be a linear progression in size or one which bypasses it altogether, sort of like how some characters don't really need infinite dimensions in their verse to be 1-A. Obviously just seeing the two as fiction is too vague to be anything higher than 1-A without context.

Although, like I said, in the particular case of the Overvoid there are a few statements in Animal Man which may still put it this high anyways, but I'd have to read the whole comic myself to be sure. I am mostly arguing towards the idea itself here, just to clarify.

Also, I don't think bringing that up helps things in any way Cal.

 

[Antvasima]

There aren't only anime and manga rated that high actually. The Elder Scrolls and the Cthulhu Mythos are both western, as is The Unwritten. I am just extremely uneasy with handing out the highest tiers with very insufficient justifications, regardless if others get upset at us about it.

 

[Antvasima]

Also, thank you for the support Agnaa.

 

[Agnaa]

If it needs more context then I guess it makes sense. But I'd like to have an idea of how those interpretations affect Umineko and Ichiban, to see if it leads to an explosively high increase in their perceived power level, beyond what is reasonably expected.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

How would these changes now effect True Plantonic Concepts? Transcendence of all reality no longer makes you 1-A, so would platonic concepts now be 1-A by default? While I understand that they do transcend dimensions, this is not enough anymore.

In addition, I'm not sure how the theory of forms would relate to this new tiering system based more on sets and cardinalities.

 

[Agnaa]

We already had a discussion on how this would affect type 1 concepts, starting here.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Looks like it wasn't resolved tho

 

[Agnaa]

Looks to me like it was.

Type 2 being local concepts and type 1 being those that actually govern all spacetime regardless of scale seems to make sense to me as a distinction.
	~ DontTalkDT​

That seems fair enough
	~ Ultima Reality​

 

[Lemongifted101]

Sorry to interupt you this only for staff but I think Hajun and Habiki boosted should be 1-A+ but don't know that they qualified for high 1A or not.

 

[Lemongifted101]

It isn't Outer Gods of Cthulhu Mythos qualified for high 1-A ???

 

[I'm_Blue_daba_dee_daba_die]

Overvoid doesn't just view DC as fiction. He already transcends the already above baseline DC cosmology and can't even be in a hiearchy and his scale is unquantifiable

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

It isn't Outer Gods of Cthulhu Mythos qualified for high 1-A ???

No.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Also the Overvoid isn't just one "Reality-Fiction Interaction", it is a completely different thing.

Also Daimao is something I have read, it can be argued to not be that much more impressive.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

If it needs more context then I guess it makes sense. But I'd like to have an idea of how those interpretations affect Umineko and Ichiban, to see if it leads to an explosively high increase in their perceived power level, beyond what is reasonably expected.

I think that people DEFINITELY overrate Reality-Fiction stuff over feats, that's for sure.

 

[Antvasima]

If all the hierarchies and feats within a fictional setting are as less than nothing to a character that completely transcends it, I definitely do not think that we overrate reality-fiction interaction hierarchies, and I still do not agree that we should give the Overvoid special treatment in this regard.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

You misunderstand it completely once again, I thought this issue was completely solved last thread. You absolutely overrate it by assuming that Reality-Fiction interaction needs to conform to this singular interpretation across all verses.

Do you even realize how silly it is. "Oh, it need to be a writer to a writer to a writer to a writer..." Endlessly?

If I am writing fiction I could just write that there's fiction within the fiction and that would make it two layers. It's called Metafiction. Frankly I don't see what's so impressive otherwise.

 

[Antvasima]

It doesn't matter if you dislike the concept. There are still several settings, such as The Unwritten, that are built upon it, and I strongly disagree with that a single such difference should be given a free pass to be rated far above what is warranted due to personal preferences. It sets a very bad precedent. If we establish a new system, we should stick to following the rules within it as well.

 

[Andytrenom]

I think his point is that reality fiction stuff can mean different things for different verses. Even if two kinds of transcendence can both be called a reality fiction difference, they may not be equally as impressive depending on the context of the verse

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

It doesn't matter if you dislike the concept. There are still several settings, such as The Unwritten, that are built upon it, and I strongly disagree with that a single such difference should be given a free pass to be rated far above what is warranted due to personal preferences. It sets a very bad precedent. If we establish a new system, we should stick to following the rules within it as well.

Once again you misunderstood completely. There's no set of rules here, Ant, this is just you putting your assumptions in front of everyone else.

Also, I read Daimao, it only has two Author - Fiction levels of interaction. The only difference is that stories about characters discovering they are fictional and then ascending to a higher level to cease to become fictional are, per their own nature, still fictional, so despite gaining fictional awareness and even trying to escape the bounds of their fictional reality the characters remain fiction. Much like the whole story.

So you using Daimao as an example is particularly funny because it's nothing like you're assuming it to be.

Again

Do you need to be above infinite dimensions to be 1-A? No.

Do you need to use reality-fiction interaction in your verse to be 1-A, or 0? Absolutely not.

Do you REALLY need to use infinite reality-fiction levels to be 1-A or 0? NOOOOOO.

That's my point. You're acting like the only way to be 1-A or High 1-A or whatever is to follow Umineko. Which itself is kinda wanked.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Also what even is with this sudden notion that "Reality - Fiction Hierarchies" are suddenly always 1-A hierarchies and inherently more impressive than any other type of layered fiction? As far as I know it came out of nowhere.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, that is not the way that I had IUND explained to me.

Nevertheless, reality-fiction interaction obviously isn't necessarily superior to Outerversal hierarchies if all that is transcended is universes or a few higher infinities of space and time.

However, if everything including several degrees of outerversal hierarchies is perceived as insubstantial to the point of being fiction, that is obviously impressive, and if such a being has yet another infinite order of infinities above him/herself along with many orders of outerversal hierarchies, and that in turn has an author who perceives it all as insubstantial fiction, which is transcended by yet another such hierarchy, and so onwards an infinite number of times, that is obviously quite impressive, comsiderably more so than just one such hierarchical layer.

Part of the entire point of this tiering system revision is to make a distinction between these different types of characters, not to mix them up and create even more confusing illogical precedents.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

I think his point is that reality fiction stuff can mean different things for different verses. Even if two kinds of transcendence can both be called a reality fiction difference, they may not be equally as impressive depending on the context of the verse

I believe that's what Matt is trying to express here: Reality-Fiction Differences are not necessarily the same in all verses.

Of course, we first establish a solid measuring stick (the hierarchy of aleph numbers in the case of 1-A) and then equate such differences within an hierarchy to a single step within it when there is no further context to the sheer extent by which a succeeding layer surpasses the one which comes before it, but said layers can obviously be defined in such a way that the progression in size between them can be equated to more than adding single steps to the hierarchy we default to.

As I said, in the end it comes down to how the author defines the difference between what is surpassed and what surpasses it. In this case it can either be a dimensional-like difference or allow one to bypass hierarchies altogether depending on context.

 

[Antvasima]

But the Overvoid has simply been defined as the background that the entire setting is written on, and the setting in question has never been defined as particularly impressive, comparatively speaking. I continue to disagree with defining it as somehow being more impressive to see one such layer as fiction than an infinite number of them.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

"Well, that is not the way that I had IUND explained to me."

Don't believe everything you hear, my dude.

 

[Antvasima]

There is an ongoing revision thread about IUND, and DarkLK and DontTalkDT seem to perceive it the way that I described.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I have a ton of respect for the both of them but neither of them are Einstein, even combined. They're not infallible gods with the intellect to make Athena look like Spongebob.

 

[Antvasima]

No, but they are two of our most reliable members when it comes to issues like this.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

No, but I read it and it's not what they said it is.

Relying and parroting the word of others like gospel is the worst thing you can do as a leader, Ant.

 

[Andytrenom]

Best to just ask Donttalk what's what than discussing his interpretation amongst ourselves