Tiering System Revisions - Part 4 (Staff Only)

[Ultima_Reality]

So

1

2

The explanation page is not fully finished, but the bulk of the important stuff is already there. I am just hoping I managed to explain all of that as simply and concisely as possible, so, if anyone is confused by anything in those pages, I believe now is the time to ask questions. If not, then that's great.

By the way, I believe some of you have noticed that in this draft I made for the new tiering system page, there is no High 2-A tier, and infinite 5-D stuff is placed under Low 1-C instead. This is something I've been meaning to ask for a while but...

Is High 2-A even necessary as a tier? I don't see much reason to keep it separated from Low 1-C, especially since Tier 1 is supposed to be where higher-dimensional / higher-order stuff starts in the first place, while Tier 2 is supposed to be for more basic Multiversal shanenigans.

I am aware that I may be straying away from the topic of this thread, and will gladly bring it up later on (or never again) if now is not the time. I just want to know people's thoughts on the matter.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

5-D being in the same tier as multiversal stuff was always strange to me, i agree with it being Low 1-C.

 

[Nepuko]

I have no real problem with it being in Low 1-C. I'd say I'm neutral .

If I may ask tho, I'm confused about how we would rate or be able to..separate what's countable infinity and what isn't. I get the mathematical reasoning (R^5 if I'm not wrong), so I'm rather asking this :

"On what criterias would you rate a fictive feat when you see it as "uncountably infinite universes" level?"

An actual exemple from a verse that reached High 2-A via destroying uncountably infinity of universes would be very welcomed.

Apologies if the question was already answered previously.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

These cases would be fairly rare, but they do exist. Oryx is an example of that, as far as I am aware, and I am fairly sure Transformers has similar statements, though the god-tiers of the verse are rated at 1-B currently.

 

[Antvasima]

I do not mind moving it to Low 1-C either.

The old rationale was that 2-A brane universes were supposedly strung together along a 5-D axis, but given the revisions, this seems redundant now.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, I think that the explanation pages seem fine, but I am not the best person to ask.

 

[Ovrhide]

i know this is staff only, but i do have a question. im aware of certain verses that have insane statements comparing gods to even higher gods with insane gaps in power. for example, the gap between a 1-A character to a simple human like us is... almost impossible to imagine(probably impossible completely). so what tier would someone get, if say, X character transcends 1-A chracters, as those 1-A chracters transcend regular humans like us? because no amount of sets of inifnities would get those 1-A characters to X characters level, its just too ridiculous (its a comparison from a certain verse) .would it be high 1-A?

its complicated to me, but hopefully i would learn to understand. and i promise this is gonna be my last response. sorry for breaking a rule.

 

[ÆONS]

High 1-A, its hardly even a question at that point honestly.

 

[Ovrhide]

thanks. the requirements are a bit confusing for me.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

so what tier would someone get, if say, X character transcends 1-A chracters, as those 1-A chracters transcend regular humans like us?

a higher degree of 1-A.

 

[Ovrhide]

This, pretty much. You could also compare 1-A+ and High 1-A to how High 1-B and 1-A themselves interact, although that comparision is a bit misleading, and the difference between former two is far larger in scale.
the gap i metioned seems infinitely more higher than this

sounds more like 1-A+ "1-A+ = Infinite steps above baseline Outerversal"

 

[Ultima_Reality]

I already explained why perspective shenanigans like the one you described aren't really that much of a big deal here, I think.

 

[Ovrhide]

I already explained why perspective shenanigans like the one you described aren't really that much of a big deal here, I think.

seems bit different from what i was trying to get across.

the R*R*R (endlessly and uncountably) doesnt get you to 1-A, agreed. and the same for 1-A, it doesnt get you to 1-A+ or above. but is it the same when comparing an outright outerverse character (1-A) to a human? the gap between them goes far beyond multiplying R endlessly and uncountably. my comparison sounds like 1-A+ to me (if not high 1-A).


but maybe im not getting it

 

[Maxnumb231]

I hope u are aware of how big each aleph is.

 

[Ovrhide]

of course. thus why Ultima used the comparison between high 1-Bs and 1-As with it, to note how ridicously huge the gap is

 

[Antvasima]

Stop quoting long posts.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

@Ovrhide

The point was that, when you (using the terms from the simplified explanation I wrote there, for convenience's sake) jump from R ^ R to R ^ R ^ R, you are actually repeating the entire process which led you from 11-B (R) to Low 1-A (R ^ R), on a far larger scale, as each additional exponentiation of R is basically equivalent to the product of uncountably many copies of R in the first place. So, yeah, that's why I say perspectives and comparisions like the one you gave aren't that much of a big deal unless they have some additional context to them.

 

[Doctor_129]

Because this system is based on cardinal now´╝îi think this is the time to ask these questions about

the verse which have no cardinal stuff like Cthulhu Mythos´╝îmasadaverse

for example ´╝îif someone ask a question´╝îWhat is the cardinal of first gate in Cthulhu Mythos´╝ƒno matter what your answer is´╝înot so credible from my point of view

Because verse like Cthulhu Mythos or masadaverse is not based on mathematics cardinal´╝îyou give any cardinal seem arbitrary and you can never say this character is must be the size of this cardinal because there will be no scan can clearly prove it . You can't expect a worldview with no cardinal stuff to prove it

and how about this question´╝îhow to handle the hierarchy of concept like rewrite´╝ƒwhat is the cardinal of non mathematics hierarchy´╝ƒyou konw there are clear definitions of mathematics stuff´╝îbut the non mathematics stuff is vague´╝îHow can you give a convincing cardinal to these tings´╝ƒ

 

[Ultima_Reality]

A work of fiction doesn't need to explicitly mention cardinals and set-theoretical concepts verbatim in order to be able to be measured by the system, because it works primarily by analyzing the size of a given cosmology / character and approximating a cardinal number to it.

For example, if Character A is baseline Outerversal (associated with aleph-two, roughly) and Character B perceives them as fiction, then the latter will be associated with aleph-three (or more specifically a size equivalent to |R ^ R ^ R| many dimensions/layers). It gives off a very natural and linear progression of size and power which works fine as an external measuring stick that we can default to, regardless if a verse actually delves into set theory or not.

and how about this question´╝îhow to handle the hierarchy of concept like rewrite´╝ƒwhat is the cardinal of non mathematics hierarchy´╝ƒyou konw there are clear definitions of mathematics stuff´╝îbut the non mathematics stuff is vague´╝îHow can you give a convincing cardinal to these tings

A "set" is just an arbitrary collection of objects that satisfies certain axioms that allow for its construction, you can make one out of anything, really, and concepts are not excluded from that. Again, the system is primarily based off of size that is equated to a most appropriate infinite number, and "levels of transcendence" in an hierarchy are just the most common way of jumping from one infinity to another.

 

[Duedate8898]

Maybe some actual examples would care to clear the air a bit more for people. That way it can be that much clearer for those who don't have a grip on cardinal numbers.

 

[Agnaa]

Many examples have been given already.

Random non-staff keep coming in and asking for explanations while refusing to read the history of these threads where their questions were already answered.

Can we please stop derailing this thread with stuff like that? Take it to Ultima's message wall or something.

 

[Doctor_129]

For example, if Character A is baseline Outerversal (associated with aleph-two, roughly) and Character B perceives them as fiction, then the latter will be associated with aleph-three (or more specifically a size equivalent to |R ^ R ^ R| many dimensions/layers).

about fiction reality gap´╝îi dont know why you think 1 level of gap can be equal to the gap of Consecutive aleph number

for example´╝îwe can write aleph infinite in the fiction´╝îthen one 1 level of gap is aleph infinite´╝îand we can also write any kind of large cardinal in the fiction´╝îthen one 1 level of fiction reality gap is large cardinal.

'and I' dont think this have solved the problem of gate´╝îfor example´╝îthe first gate and second gate in Cthulhu Mythos

assume you give first gate aleph 1´╝îsecond gate aleph2

then´╝îcan you give me a scan which can prove the gap is as huge as aleph2 from aleph 1´╝ƒ why not aleph3 from aleph 1´╝ƒor just bigger ordinal number ´╝ƒof course´╝îyou dont have the scan

so´╝îthis is why I think its very difficult maybe impossible to give a proper cardinal of a verse dont based on mathematics

A "set" is just an arbitrary collection of objects that satisfies certain axioms that allow for its construction, you can make one out of anything, really, and concepts are not excluded from that. Again, the system is primarily based off of size that is equated to a most appropriate infinite number, and "levels of transcendence" in an hierarchy are just the most common way to jumping from one infinity to another.

yes ´╝îi understand what you said and set theory power ´╝îbut my question is also ´╝îwhat is the cardinal of rewrite hierarchy´╝ƒ i want to know how the new system solve real problem.can this system solve problem smoothly and Convincing´╝ƒ

 

[Sandman31]

What are you even arguing about? Theyre just labels, theyre not physical things that exist, just like Ultima said, a verse doesnt need to explicitly mention cardinals, sets etc.

(assume you give first gate aleph 1´╝îsecond gate aleph2 then´╝îcan you give me a scan which can prove the gap is as huge as aleph2 from aleph 1´╝ƒ why not aleph3 from aleph 1´╝ƒor just bigger ordinal number ´╝ƒof course´╝îyou dont have the sca)

Because the 2nd Gate transcends the 1st Gate and if this transcendance is dimensionlike/reality-fiction then the difference between them is infinity. The 2nd Gate is inaccessible from the 1st gate because the difference between them is infinity, you cant reach the 2nd gate from below. This difference can be represented by labeling Gate 1 as Aleph 1 and Gate 2 as Aleph 2

Like based on what youre saying we cant really measure anything because of this "what ifs"

Your question is basically how do we know that this one transcendence is not really equal to 3 transcendence?

We'll never know unless the it was explained in verse that the difference between these 2 realms/gates etc is actually 3 infinities. Otherwise we just assume that 1 transcendence is = 1 infinity

or just bigger ordinal number ´╝ƒof course´╝îyou dont have the sca

If the difference is just a "bigger ordinal number" then that means that theres no transcendence to begin with

 

[Doctor_129]

i understand what you said ´╝îbut i dont want to argue with you here and now´╝îand tbh ´╝îi dont want to talk with two people at same time´╝îif i have time´╝îmaybe i will response at you massage wall

 

[Antvasima]

Many examples have been given already.

Random non-staff keep coming in and asking for explanations while refusing to read the history of these threads where their questions were already answered.

Can we please stop derailing this thread with stuff like that? Take it to Ultima's message wall or something.

Agreed.

 

[Antvasima]

Just a mention that I do not think that we should instantly place all tier 1 and 0 profiles as having unknown statistics after the system change, as it would turn too chaotic, especially given the upcoming forum move. It seems better to gradually revise them, and maybe place a note about the "under revision" nature of these profiles in the tiering system page.

 

[Doctor_129]

Just a mention that I do not think that we should instantly place all tier 1 and 0 profiles as having unknown statistics after the system change, as it would turn too chaotic, especially given the upcoming forum move. It seems better to gradually revise them, and maybe place a note about the "under revision" nature of these profiles in the tiering system page.

Ok´╝îthat sounds good idea

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Me seeing the current state of this thread

 

[Sandman31]

Again, Reality-Fiction is not the only way to represent transcendence. If youve got problems with the ratings of Cthulhu mythos then make a seperate thread, this thread is already getting clogged up.

 

[Antvasima]

Staff, honorary and former staff, and invited regular members only please.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Dimensions can lead to higher infinities, and it doesn't actually matter if they are higher planes or just axes of movement, it's just that you're gonna need more context for the latter to qualify than the former, which are almost always basically self-explanatory in regards to tiering.

Anyways, those revisions are a hair breadth away from being applied, and this thread was reduced to mostly random people sliding in and asking questions that were already answered (No offense to anyone here, of course). So, should I close this until further notice?

 

[Antvasima]

I suppose that you can close this if you think that it is best, yes.