Tier 9-B Enter the Octagon Tournament: Chris Jericho vs Tsukasa Shishio

[RandomGuy2345]

Sorry, I saw Chris and Tsukasa so I had to read through it..

The arguments were very fun to read so I hope ppl actually read the arguments and vote based on the arguments presented by both sides

I was (mostly) joking.

But yeah, hopefully they don't just see your comment and vote Tsukasa.

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Pika and DD please hurry up and give your input

 

[The_Legendary_Vin]

I say to hold off on voting for now, my argument boils down to "Strong sword man vs more skilled strong man"

 

[DemonicDude]

Isn't weak tiers of WWE such as Madcap Moss able to react to a sword.

 

[The_Legendary_Vin]

Isn't weak tiers of WWE such as Madcap Moss able to react to a sword.

equalized speed I think makes this more difficult

 

[The_Legendary_Vin]

a swords only going to be as good as it's weilder

 

[DontTalkDT]

Alright, time to use my 15 minutes before I gotta get to work for some brief argument.

Jericho can just duck under the first swing, and then do a take down, which ends up disarming Tsukasa. He can also just strike Tsukasa's legs, which will Jericho the advantage.

A good sword strike is often on waist level to prevent ducking without getting on all four (getting on all four basically looses you the game, as the position is incredibly vulnerable).

But even assuming he can duck below the sword, he would then approach Tsukasa while ducked. And Tsukasa isn't like a swordsman that can't fight without his sword. Quite the opposite, he is primarily a hand-to-hand fighter.
If Chris ducks and closes in, Tsukasa won't just stand there for a take down. He will follow the strike up with another attack and ducked down Chris is in no good position to deal a counter that follow up. That could be a backhand strike, a kick or, if Chris already got really close, a strike with his knee. Tsukasa uses things like Muay Thai, which are perfect for doing a follow up counter attack like that, as it involves extreme close range fighting with knee and elbow strikes.

We should also not forget that Tsukasa is unlikely to simply let go of his blade even when hit. He is too experienced for that and with his LS he can't be forced to let go. And then he could always recollect it shortly after even if.

---

Now, to show some Dr. Stone feats.
Look at this fight:

Remember, Tsukasa is superior to everyone there in skill. In fact, he could probably take all of them together...

Anyway, from this clip I want to point out two things. First, everyone and their mother can easily jump several meters high and far... useful for spacing.
But mostly I wish to point out Kohaku's move: Jumping on the sword blade of someone and then jumping off of the blade again.
That move she casually does need so much precision and control, that I have my doubts someone can actually do it in reality. (especially with her shoes...) It's much harder than walking on ropes or something, after all, and even that is hard for most.

 

[Pikaman]

Jericho does not have the Judas Effect in his WWE key, it's just his Codebreaker (which is still going to end the fight when connected).

Oh yeah sorry I got that mixed up my had

we really should make the Keyes more clear in his profile...

 

[Pikaman]

equalized speed I think makes this more difficult

I mean, Drew should outspeed Moss, considering the two are at damn near opposite ends of the scaling chain in terms of overall power, so speed equalised should make things worse for Tsukasa

 

[Pikaman]

So if he can dodge the attacks 100% of the time, then what's the point even of equalized speed or such

Dodging is just as much an issue of skill as it is speed

 

[Pikaman]

I'm not seeing how this is a total wincon

It absolutely is, it’s Jericho’s finisher, his “ultimate technique” if you will, finishers are always portrayed as vastly above any other move in a wrestlers arsenal, and 99% of the time, it’s lights out for whoever’s on the receiving end. It’s massively above Jericho’s standard AP, and will absolutely KO anyone in this tournament who isn’t careful with the damage they rack up in the opening/mid stages of the fight. Even if you entertain the idea that Tsukasa does get up, it’s damage that he isn’t going to recover from. He’ll be extremely vulnerable at best and incapable of fighting at worst. Jericho has the moves to match the impact on him that being stabbed would have, onto Tsukasa, the two ultimately cancel each other out, so it comes right back to issues of skill, which we have already extensively explained and debunked arguments to the contrary of the fact that’s a category Jericho takes, is even with Tsukasa in if we’re being really nice.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Isn't weak tiers of WWE such as Madcap Moss able to react to a sword.

That swing's so bad I could react to it like that...

 

[Pikaman]

That swing's so bad I could react to it like that...

What do you want the actors to do, actually deliver a sweeping rapid blow with no cue?

Honestly I really don’t like the argument of “that’s not what happened” in cases where it’s painfully obvious that while they could not actually perform the feat for the safety of the actor, the creative intention was obviously for the feat to be interpreted a certain way

 

[Pikaman]

If we took everything literally and straight up in WWE it would be a 10-A or 9-C at best verse

 

[DontTalkDT]

What do you want the actors to do, actually deliver a sweeping rapid blow with no cue?

The fact that the medium has trouble portraying feats doesn't turn bad feats into good feats.
If you want to claim that it is more impressive than it looks you need proof.

 

[Pikaman]

The fact that the medium has trouble portraying feats doesn't turn bad feats into good feats.
If you want to claim that it is more impressive than it looks you need proof.

The very nature of WWE is evidence to the fact that this is not a feat accurately portrayed to its Kayfabe status, it is common sense that Drew is more adept with his sword than that in verse, and that the swing is only so dull in order to guarantee the safety of the actors, it’s an insult to the skill of the verse to say that it’s level is as poor as that sword swing was in reality.

The reason it is so slow is that Drew raising his sword is a clear, distinguishable cue for the actor to jump down, it needs to be that obvious the swing is coming in real life for the actor’s safety, but WWE has enough skill showings that it simply leaves the realm of common sense to assume in kayfabe that the swing was not more adept/deadly

 

[RandomGuy2345]

DD, you need to update the votes.

Jericho has 3 votes (Me, Pika, and you?)

Tsukasa has 4 votes (DT, Spinoirr, Vin, and Nierre)

 

[The_Legendary_Vin]

What do you want the actors to do, actually deliver a sweeping rapid blow with no cue?

right, if someone weaker and slower than me can dodge a punch, does that automatically mean that I can dodge all punches in a fight as well?

Just because you CAN do something, doesn't mean that you can ALWAYS do it, it's not like the sword blow is a grand ultimate attack, Tsukasa's primary wincon isn't a flashy finisher or special magical NLF 1 hit KO combo blow, it's something that Tsukasa can keep in use for numerous attacks and sweeps, not all of which need to hit, legit only one has to, in order to weaken his opponent

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Also, does Tsukasa open with his sword, or Martial Arts? Just curious.

 

[Pikaman]

right, if someone weaker and slower than me can dodge a punch, does that automatically mean that I can dodge all punches in a fight as well?

Just because you CAN do something, doesn't mean that you can ALWAYS do it, it's not like the sword blow is a grand ultimate attack, Tsukasa's primary wincon isn't a flashy finisher or special magical NLF 1 hit KO combo blow, it's something that Tsukasa can keep in use for numerous attacks and sweeps, not all of which need to hit, legit only one has to, in order to weaken his opponent

Yes, but my point is that people who scale ridiculously below Jericho in skill have showings dodging mid range swinging objects and even swords exactly, and that this means Jericho has the skill to dodge the sword attacks, he only needs to do that long enough to

A: Disarm Tsukasa

B: Hit him with an attack heavy enough to get Tsukasa to drop it

Both of these options neutralise Tsukasa’s sword, and in a pure martial arts contest Jericho takes it, even if Jericho was injured by the sword, he can still manage to tip the scales in his favour with the equally devastating Codebreaker. I acknowledge the sword poses Jericho heavy challenges, but him and the WWE verse have the consistent showing in skill in similar or exact situations to prove he can hold out and dodge the attacks enough to get a crucial opening more times than not.

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Also, I'm still questioning if Tsukasa opens with his sword, or Martial Arts.

If he opens with his sword, then this fight can go either way.

If he opens with Martial Arts, then I'm inclined to believe that Jericho can pull off the win before Tsukasa uses his sword.

 

[Spinoirr]

If he has his sword on him at the start he opens with his weapon

 

[RandomGuy2345]

If he has his sword on him at the start he opens with his weapon

Alright, so this fight can go either way.

Jericho just has to avoid this sword as much as possible, and pick his spots carefully.

Pika and I have already listed the many ways Jericho has of countering this, so no need to summarize.

Also, I'm inclined to believe that Jericho would be more desperate to end the fight quicker if he sees that he's facing an opponent with the sword, which also means he'd be more likely to use his Codebreaker early on.

 

[RandomGuy2345]

I'm gonna contact people here to vote.

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Btw, for the people I contacted, there was decided winner yet.

This match could go either way, so vote for who you think has better arguments.

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

I read brievfly everything and this is inconclusive

So I will have to vote jericho just to try to make this inconclusive, because 1 vote in inconclusive does not change anything

But Tsukasa has a extreme advantage against people in doctor stone because he has formal training and skill that the characters from the new generation of humans lack, I can´t remember anything about him being so skilled in 2019 Earth, but if he could beat soldiers and stuff, then gg for him I guess

 

[Bruhtelho]

honestly reading through and looking at the profiles, im more inclined to vote Tsukasa

 

[Spinoirr]

yes, he beat a bunch of US trained solders and a US solder who was a UFC Champ and only lost by getting sniped by a sniper

the trained USA solders were even scared of him expect the one who was a UFC Champ

 

[RandomGuy2345]

So a vote for Jericho and Tsukasa?

 

[RandomGuy2345]

yes, he beat a bunch of US trained solders and a US solder who was a UFC Champ and only lost by getting sniped by a sniper

Pretty sure Jericho can match this.

 

[Pikaman]

Pretty sure Jericho can match this.

Yeah this isn’t really unheard of level of skill in WWE lmao

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Andre the Giant was undefeated for 15 straight years.

Hulk Hogan was able to defeat Andre the Giant, breaking his undefeated 15 year streak.

The Undertaker was able to defeat Hulk Hogan on two different occasions.

And like I said before, Jericho is able to fight on par with The Undertaker.

 

[The_Legendary_Vin]

yes, he beat a bunch of US trained solders and a US solder who was a UFC Champ and only lost by getting sniped by a sniper

the trained USA solders were even scared of him expect the one who was a UFC Champ

what branch and if known, the specialization of it?

 

[Spinoirr]

well they are xenos branch and just like Stanley they probably are like him but not as skilled. While in uniform in the flashbacks Stanley is shown wearing a variation of the US Parachutist Badge.

The Power Team consists of the members of Stanley's military unit, who are warriors with years of combat experience and are led by their persistent leader Stanley. This team is easily the largest in the American Colony as most of the inhabitants are former Military Soldiers. Other prominent figures of the power team is the Pyrotechnician soldier and the Naginata soldier.

• Stanley Snyder - Commander and Sniper.
• Maya Biggs - Martial Artist, Guard and Soldier.
• Charlotte Bony - Pilot and Sub Commander.

 

[RandomGuy2345]

well they are xenos branch and just like Stanley they probably are like him but not as skilled. While in uniform in the flashbacks Stanley is shown wearing a variation of the US Parachutist Badge.

The Power Team consists of the members of Stanley's military unit, who are warriors with years of combat experience and are led by their persistent leader Stanley. This team is easily the largest in the American Colony as most of the inhabitants are former Military Soldiers. Other prominent figures of the power team is the Pyrotechnician soldier and the Naginata soldier.

• Stanley Snyder - Commander and Sniper.
• Maya Biggs - Martial Artist, Guard and Soldier.
• Charlotte Bony - Pilot and Sub Commander.

Warriors with years of combat experience is nothing new whatsoever for the WWE.

 

[091Franky]

That is generally true from an eye's perspective but UFC fighters showed up in WWE and was squashed under 1 minute by Lesnar such as Lesnar vs Cain Velasquez Crown Jewel PPV fight.
Lesnar is a UFC fighter and Triple H can defeat him who I'm pretty sure scales to Jericho)
(So yes in verse WWE top tier talents such as Lesnar can squash a UFC fighter and Jericho is in the top tier as well)
It all depends on the scaling of Jericho plus his moves

Probably not related to the match at this point but cain is not even 100% healthy during this fight or any recent fights altho the reason for the loss is something else, there are times when wwe top tiers tried and don't do anything rememberable as cm punks had lost without even putting up a fight and batista barely won despite him against a mediocre fighter. They both defeated jericho in wwe. Only thing that scale them relatively is brock lesnar

Btw after reading the both sides voting tsukasa.

 

[Pikaman]

I mean if we can’t convince people of something as simple as WWE ~= UFC it’s a lost cause for the verse in terms of people actually recognising it’s skill...

 

[Pikaman]

Several wwe god tiers have been labelled the GOATS at their styles, of course they can measure up to UFC, and surpass certain periods of it without too much trouble

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Probably not related to the match at this point but cain is not even 100% healthy during this fight or any recent fights altho the reason for the loss is something else, there are times when wwe top tiers tried and don't do anything rememberable as cm punks had lost without even putting up a fight and batista barely won despite him against a mediocre fighter. They both defeated jericho in wwe. Only thing that scale them relatively is brock lesnar

Btw after reading the both sides voting tsukasa.

What...

Are you talking about CM Punk vs Brock Lesnar? Cause if so, then Punk put up a hell of a fight.

And who is this "mediocre" wrestler Batista faced?

Jericho has legit pinned The Undertaker before (and can even damage him), so I don't see your point here.

Jericho is able to fight on par with someone who defeated someone that ended a 15-year winning streak. And if you looked at all of the other skill arguments I made, it's pretty clear that Jericho is at the very least equal to, if not superior in skill to Tsukasa here.

 

[DemonicDude]

Probably not related to the match at this point but cain is not even 100% healthy during this fight or any recent fights altho the reason for the loss is something else, there are times when wwe top tiers tried and don't do anything rememberable as cm punks had lost without even putting up a fight and batista barely won despite him against a mediocre fighter. They both defeated jericho in wwe. Only thing that scale them relatively is brock lesnar

Btw after reading the both sides voting tsukasa.

His health was Not in any way shape or form mentioned by WWE when he faced Lesnar so in Verse it was hyped as a legit 1 vs 1 fight and that UFC guy Cain Velasquez squashed.