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Tier 9-B Enter the Octagon Tournament: Chris Jericho vs Tsukasa Shishio

Pikaman, A human being is not going to be able to fight with muscles being severed, a sword swing also moves typically faster than a punch, as it has more weight and force behind it, what I'm saying is not that he can't survive the first hit, but that the first blow he takes tremendously weakens him from bloodloss, shock, and having muscles severed and taken out of the equation, plus he'll have to make sure that he doesn't bleed out to death by moving quickly, as there WILL be widespread bleeding, that first hit makes it so that he is fighting at a disadvantage, also, does he have any experience fighting blade users btw am curious on this, as I don't know WWE's lore and feats very well (I say lore and feats, as I see WWE as staged and scripted for the most part
 
Obvs continue discussion, but I know I wouldn’t wanna draft a big ass debunk of arguments only to see that people voted to ratify them while I was away 💀
 
Pikaman said:
Kendo Sticks, Steel Chairs, Sledgehammers and even ladders have been utilised commonly in WWE as weapons, Mick Foley also wielded a baseball bat wrapped around in barbed wire if you wanna talk about piercing weapons
Click to expand...
I'mma say a sword is more deadly than those, but with the sledge hammers being wide swinging weapons, he should have an edge with avoiding the blows, I'm just not sure how he'll handle a long slash to the side, but I don't think it'd stop him from disarming it, possibly after taking a blow, at which he might be able to weild it instead
 
Pikaman said:
Kendo Sticks, Steel Chairs, Sledgehammers and even ladders have been utilised commonly in WWE as weapons, Mick Foley also wielded a baseball bat wrapped around in barbed wire if you wanna talk about piercing weapons
Click to expand...
My point is that Jericho has fought with a range disadvantage, he has disarmed people, some I’m sure with higher LS, none of the disadvantages presented here are ones he has been shown to struggle overcoming before, bar maybe the issue of being stabbed, but skill and patience can prevent that
 
And again, while being stabbed will hinder Jericho, he can level its ability to tip the scales of the match with his codebreaker
 
Yes the Judas Effect would be another one of his finishers, so it’s another option as well
 
He could technically get Tsukasa to forfeit with the Walls of Jericho too, but I see that as less feasible than his K.O. based finishers (not impossible, just not likely)
 
I personally think Jericho takes it high diff through his skill and vast wealths of knowledge and experience pulling him through, will be very interested in how RandomGuys response tips the scales (if at all, we could all just end up being stubborn lmao)
 
Honestly, these sword arguments are pretty flawed.

1. Jericho had dealt with weaponry that does more damage than normal wrestling moves (steel chairs, steel ladders, steel steps, thumbtacks (which do piercing damage btw), and much, much more). A sword, while different from what he's usually faced, will be nothing out of the norm for Jericho.

2. Jericho has good enough Pain Tolerance to where he can survive an attack from a sword (Jericho has suffered from severe amounts of blood loss before, and continued to fight on). Heck, in his matchup with Dolph Ziggler, Jericho had ****** up ribs, and he was still able to pull off a win, so to say Jericho won't survive one sword attack is ridiculous.

3. Jericho can just... dodge it? Not only due to skill, but his Instinctive Reactions as well. Jericho has been shown to automatically counter moves into finishing maneuvers. Jericho was hit by Rey Mysterio's 619 (finishing move btw), and when completely stunned by the move, Jericho automatically countered Rey's aerial move into a Codebreaker. Jericho can also counter grounded moves into a Codebreaker.

4. Jericho can make Tsukasa drop the sword by hitting him hard enough. Simple, but effective. Heck, Jericho can get rid of the sword by just hitting it out of Tsukasa's hand.

5. If Jericho were to get his hands on the sword, he'd be able to use it proficiently as well. He has Weapon Mastery after all.

Overall, Jericho can survive more than one sword attack, he can simply dodge it, he can get the sword out of Tsukasa's hand, he'd be able to use the sword proficiently himself, and dealing with a sword is nothing out of the norm for Jericho. He'll sooner or later find a way to counter this.

Btw, my vote is for Jericho via his being able to match Tsukasa's skill, his experience of facing a variety of opponents, as well as being able to nullify most of Tsukasa's advantages he has over him.

Jericho FRA extremely high diff (if we were to run this 100 times, Tsukasa would deadass win somewhere in between 40-50 of those matches, so Jericho just clutches it out here).
 
Pikaman said:
Yes the Judas Effect would be another one of his finishers, so it’s another option as well
Click to expand...
Jericho does not have the Judas Effect in his WWE key, it's just his Codebreaker (which is still going to end the fight when connected).
 
Also, if Tsukasa was trying to attack Jericho with his sword, Jericho can just target Tsukasa's legs, which will definitely cause Tsukasa to drop his sword.
 
RandomGuy2345 said:
1. Jericho had dealt with weaponry that does more damage than normal wrestling moves (steel chairs, steel ladders, steel steps, thumbtacks (which do piercing damage btw), and much, much more). A sword, while different from what he's usually faced, will be nothing out of the norm for Jericho.
Click to expand...
Alright, 1, you can't possibly think that a thumbtack does as much damage as taking a heavy sword strike to the side, or being pierced by a sword blow

RandomGuy2345 said:
2. Jericho has good enough Pain Tolerance to where he can survive an attack from a sword (Jericho has suffered from severe amounts of blood loss before, and continued to fight on). Heck, in his matchup with Dolph Ziggler, Jericho had ****** up ribs, and he was still able to pull off a win, so to say Jericho won't survive one sword attack is ridiculous.
Click to expand...
Pain tolerance doesn't negate blood loss, in fact, it can hasten his end, by fighting despite crippling injuries, the argument being made isn't that he can't survive a sword strike, it's that he will be physically weakened by having his side split open from the strike

RandomGuy2345 said:
3. Jericho can just... dodge it? Not only due to skill, but his Instinctive Reactions as well. Jericho has been shown to automatically counter moves into finishing maneuvers. Jericho was hit by Rey Mysterio's 619 (finishing move btw), and when completely stunned by the move, Jericho automatically countered Rey's aerial move into a Codebreaker. Jericho can also counter grounded moves into a Codebreaker.
Click to expand...
Ah yes, because he can clearly perfectly dodge several sword strikes off this alone, if this was the case, then I want proof of him Ultra instinct style dodging several swings of a longer reach and larger weapon without taking a hit

RandomGuy2345 said:
4. Jericho can make Tsukasa drop the sword by hitting him hard enough. Simple, but effective. Heck, Jericho can get rid of the sword by just hitting it out of Tsukasa's hand.
Click to expand...
Would require him to enter sword range, which outranges him by a decent bit, the issue here is that he runs the risk of taking a hefty blow from the sword impact on the edged side, which while he might be able to survive a single hit, he's going to be weakened by it for the rest of the match, the swords reach means that he'll have to close into range, if he isn't already being attacked, I'm not sure how aggressive Tsusasa's style is with the blade to make a full argument with him on the defensive, the issue here being, that the heavy bloodloss of a sword gash, and possibly ripped and sliced muscles, will make it more difficult to fight without extending the amount of damage he's taken
RandomGuy2345 said:
5. If Jericho were to get his hands on the sword, he'd be able to use it proficiently as well. He has Weapon Mastery after all.
Click to expand...
weapon use of one weapon doesn't mean weapon mastery of all weapons, a Dual bladed sword in the hands of an untrained weilder (And even a trained one) can easily strike the user of the sword itself, he's more likely to injure himself trying to use a weapon that in concept, is a generally bad idea



RandomGuy2345 said:
Overall, Jericho can survive more than one sword attack, he can simply dodge it, he can get the sword out of Tsukasa's hand, he'd be able to use the sword proficiently himself, and dealing with a sword is nothing out of the norm for Jericho. He'll sooner or later find a way to counter this.
Click to expand...
once again, my argument isn't that he kills in one strike, or even five from the blade (I don't think he'd be able to land 5 of the sword strikes even), but that he takes a blow somewhere to the chest, or possibly even losses use of an arm from having the muscle severed, and is faced with a major disadvantage from having to fight with a crippling injury, pain tolerance doesn't mean that you can magically make muscles that are split work, or face tank attacks, it means you can fight in spite of them and a lot of the side effects. taking a huge gash to the chest, particularly the abdomen or upper arm, is going to leave him with a significant disadvantage, meaning that once Tsukasa is disarmed and it gets hand to hand, the skill difference is mostly, if not entirely taken out of play by Jericho having a handicap, which I think is enough for Tsukasa to pull a win
 
The_Legendary_Vin said:
Alright, 1, you can't possibly think that a thumbtack does as much damage as taking a heavy sword strike to the side, or being pierced by a sword blow
Click to expand...
??? That was never my point. The point was that a sword isn't completely out of the norm for the verse. Jericho has dealt with things that deal with piercing damage before.

The_Legendary_Vin said:
Pain tolerance doesn't negate blood loss, in fact, it can hasten his end, by fighting despite crippling injuries, the argument being made isn't that he can't survive a sword strike, it's that he will be physically weakened by having his side split open from the strike
Click to expand...
Bruh. Jericho can fight on despite severe amounts of blood loss (in fact, fighting with severe amounts of blood loss isn't a problem for him whatsoever), so it does negate it pretty well. This is all assuming that Jericho would let this happen btw.

The_Legendary_Vin said:
Ah yes, because he can clearly perfectly dodge several sword strikes off this alone, if this was the case, then I want proof of him Ultra instinct style dodging several swings of a longer reach and larger weapon without taking a hit
Click to expand...
Bro what??? I was just saying that Jericho can just dodge with little problems. Just because the sword has a longer reach, or is larger, doesn't mean Jericho can't dodge these strikes without much problem. He can literally just duck the attack, and this is just not me basing off his Instinctive Reactions btw. Jericho can just dodge off of skill alone. It's common sense. Not some complicated Ultra Instinct bullshit.

The_Legendary_Vin said:
Would require him to enter sword range, which outranges him by a decent bit, the issue here is that he runs the risk of taking a hefty blow from the sword impact on the edged side, which while he might be able to survive a single hit, he's going to be weakened by it for the rest of the match, the swords reach means that he'll have to close into range, if he isn't already being attacked, I'm not sure how aggressive Tsusasa's style is with the blade to make a full argument with him on the defensive, the issue here being, that the heavy bloodloss of a sword gash, and possibly ripped and sliced muscles, will make it more difficult to fight without extending the amount of damage he's taken
Click to expand...
Okay? Like I said, Jericho doesn't even need Tsukasa particularly. He can just hit the sword out of his hand, by using a punch, or preferably, a kick. Yes, Jericho would have to close the range gap, but that won't be much of an issue. Jericho just has to pick his spots carefully here, which he's more than capable of doing.

The_Legendary_Vin said:
weapon use of one weapon doesn't mean weapon mastery of all weapons, a Dual bladed sword in the hands of an untrained weilder (And even a trained one) can easily strike the user of the sword itself, he's more likely to injure himself trying to use a weapon that in concept, is a generally bad idea
Click to expand...
Jericho is able to use multiple weapons proficiently. Steel chairs, kendo sticks, steel steps, steel ladders, tables, barbed wire, baseball bats, fire extinguishers, and much more. A sword isn't out of the picture.

The_Legendary_Vin said:
once again, my argument isn't that he kills in one strike, or even five from the blade (I don't think he'd be able to land 5 of the sword strikes even), but that he takes a blow somewhere to the chest, or possibly even losses use of an arm from having the muscle severed, and is faced with a major disadvantage from having to fight with a crippling injury, pain tolerance doesn't mean that you can magically make muscles that are split work, or face tank attacks, it means you can fight in spite of them and a lot of the side effects. taking a huge gash to the chest, particularly the abdomen or upper arm, is going to leave him with a significant disadvantage, meaning that once Tsukasa is disarmed and it gets hand to hand, the skill difference is mostly, if not entirely taken out of play by Jericho having a handicap, which I think is enough for Tsukasa to pull a win
Click to expand...
That's a fair argument, but I think you're seriously underestimating Pain Tolerance. A gash to the chest is not going to seal the deal at all. Even then, Jericho can just dodge it, or just find an opening and hit the sword off of Tsukasa's hand. Jericho has legit wrestled with injuries before.

And this is all assuming that Jericho won't hit a Codebreaker before Tsukasa can even land a strike with the sword.
 
RandomGuy2345 said:
?? That was never my point. The point was that a sword isn't completely out of the norm for the verse. Jericho has dealt with things that deal with piercing damage before.
Click to expand...
This is a more slashing type weapon, using the edge

RandomGuy2345 said:
Bruh. Jericho can fight on despite severe amounts of blood loss (in fact, fighting with severe amounts of blood loss isn't a problem for him whatsoever), so it does negate it pretty well. This is all assuming that Jericho would let this happen btw.
Click to expand...
Humanly speaking, there is a limit to the blood loss someone can sustain, it won't be immediate, but having a large gash will take it's toll eventually

RandomGuy2345 said:
Bro what??? I was just saying that Jericho can just dodge with little problems. Just because the sword has a longer reach, or is larger, doesn't mean Jericho can't dodge these strikes without much problem. He can literally just duck the attack, and this is just not me basing off his Instinctive Reactions btw. Jericho can just dodge off of skill alone. It's common sense. Not some complicated Ultra Instinct bullshit.
Click to expand...
So if he can dodge the attacks 100% of the time, then what's the point even of equalized speed or such, it's just unlikely that he can dodge several sword swings with a quick pace
RandomGuy2345 said:
Okay? Like I said, Jericho doesn't even need Tsukasa particularly. He can just hit the sword out of his hand, by using a punch, or preferably, a kick. Yes, Jericho would have to close the range gap, but that won't be much of an issue. Jericho just has to pick his spots carefully here, which he's more than capable of doing.
Click to expand...
fair, my assumption is that he's trying to exploit and opening to strike the arms or wrist to disarm him first as a primary concern, during that instance, he could likely sustain several minor injuries at best for him, as he's still trying to move into range of a heavier sword, something that swords are meant to excel with compared to things like knives and daggers


RandomGuy2345 said:
Jericho is able to use multiple weapons proficiently. Steel chairs, kendo sticks, steel steps, steel ladders, tables, barbed wire, baseball bats, fire extinguishers, and much more. A sword isn't out of the picture.
Click to expand...
the issue is that the sword that is being used, if I'm being totally honest, is a completely ******* bullshit weapon meant more for looks in an anime than real world use, having two bladed ends with full sword blades is anything but easy, and yes, someone not trained with a sword will as is find them difficult to use, as there's a whole number of specialized footwork, grips, and knowledge that goes into even swinging one properly, I find it highly unlikely that he'd pick it up and be able to use it like any of that, especially when the swords already unwieldly and flawed in design as it is, if I didn't doubt that the anime portrayed Tsukasa using it with skill, I wouldn't think that it'd be a weapon that was useful in any manner

RandomGuy2345 said:
That's a fair argument, but I think you're seriously underestimating Pain Tolerance. A gash to the chest is not going to seal the deal at all. Even then, Jericho can just dodge it, or just find an opening and hit the sword off of Tsukasa's hand. Jericho has legit wrestled with injuries before.
Click to expand...
In many instances, it may not be enough, it's why from there that having dealt a blow like that, Tsukasa has to put in a lot more using superior AP and LS to try and make up for the gap even still, I never said that this would be an easy thing to pull off, but I do think that having incomplete use of his body's strength and muscles, as well as a weak point for if they end up grappling (If I recall, UFC allows a large assortment of moves, from different grapples to techniques, so it's not like that the skill difference is unsurmountable on the ground)


I'm saying that Tsukasa takes this with roughly even difficulty as you said for Jericho, possibly a bit more difficult as his entire wincon requires him to hit a vital critically enough to weaken Jericho, as is, I think DT will have more information for Tsukasa, as I'm only using a single argument rn as I don't know the characters or their verses well, and am strictly going by more real world physics and logic, rather than how the verses themselves work. from here I'm going to take a more backseat approach, as I think I've laid the grounds of my reasoning well enough (I don't know if this is even in character for Tsukasa to attempt, and want more experienced debators for Dr stone to put in input)
 
The_Legendary_Vin said:
This is a more slashing type weapon, using the edge
Click to expand...
Whole point was that it's not out of the norm for Jericho to deal with.

The_Legendary_Vin said:
Humanly speaking, there is a limit to the blood loss someone can sustain, it won't be immediate, but having a large gash will take it's toll eventually
Click to expand...
Key word being eventually. Jericho can end the fight before he succumbs to the pain. This is assuming that Tsukasa would even use his sword before getting hit with Jericho's Codebreaker.

The_Legendary_Vin said:
So if he can dodge the attacks 100% of the time, then what's the point even of equalized speed or such, it's just unlikely that he can dodge several sword swings with a quick pace
Click to expand...
Jericho can just duck under the first swing, and then do a take down, which ends up disarming Tsukasa. He can also just strike Tsukasa's legs, which will Jericho the advantage.

The_Legendary_Vin said:
fair, my assumption is that he's trying to exploit and opening to strike the arms or wrist to disarm him first as a primary concern, during that instance, he could likely sustain several minor injuries at best for him, as he's still trying to move into range of a heavier sword, something that swords are meant to excel with compared to things like knives and daggers
Click to expand...
Jericho doesn't necessarily need a strike at the arms to disarm Tsukasa, but that's certainly not out of the question.

The_Legendary_Vin said:
the issue is that the sword that is being used, if I'm being totally honest, is a completely ******* bullshit weapon meant more for looks in an anime than real world use, having two bladed ends with full sword blades is anything but easy, and yes, someone not trained with a sword will as is find them difficult to use, as there's a whole number of specialized footwork, grips, and knowledge that goes into even swinging one properly, I find it highly unlikely that he'd pick it up and be able to use it like any of that, especially when the swords already unwieldly and flawed in design as it is, if I didn't doubt that the anime portrayed Tsukasa using it with skill, I wouldn't think that it'd be a weapon that was useful in any manner
Click to expand...
Even if that's true (which I doubt. While Jericho won't be able to use it to the proficiency of Tsukasa, he can still use it pretty well here, which is the whole point of weapon mastery). Weapon Mastery isn't being able to use a weapon at the level that a certain character does, it's just being able to use a weapon with more skill than the average person, which Jericho can definitely do here. Then again, Jericho can just break the sword, or just throw it away to even the playing field.

The_Legendary_Vin said:
In many instances, it may not be enough, it's why from there that having dealt a blow like that, Tsukasa has to put in a lot more using superior AP and LS to try and make up for the gap even still, I never said that this would be an easy thing to pull off, but I do think that having incomplete use of his body's strength and muscles, as well as a weak point for if they end up grappling (If I recall, UFC allows a large assortment of moves, from different grapples to techniques, so it's not like that the skill difference is unsurmountable on the ground)
Click to expand...
AP edge is negligible, but LS makes sense. A gash isn't going to stop Jericho from grappling with Tsukasa. WWE uses multiple grapples and techniques as well, so arguing which fighting style is more superior is pointless. They're both pretty much even there.

The_Legendary_Vin said:
I'm saying that Tsukasa takes this with roughly even difficulty as you said for Jericho, possibly a bit more difficult as his entire wincon requires him to hit a vital critically enough to weaken Jericho, as is, I think DT will have more information for Tsukasa, as I'm only using a single argument rn as I don't know the characters or their verses well, and am strictly going by more real world physics and logic, rather than how the verses themselves work. from here I'm going to take a more backseat approach, as I think I've laid the grounds of my reasoning well enough (I don't know if this is even in character for Tsukasa to attempt, and want more experienced debators for Dr stone to put in input)
Click to expand...
I think Tsukasa's win con (sword) is more difficult to pull off here. All Jericho needs here is an opening, and he's got it in the bag. Hitting a guy in a vital area with a sword who's just as, if not, slightly more skilled than you is going to be difficult, meanwhile Jericho has hit people with more experience/skill than him with the Codebreaker. Also, assuming Tsukasa opens with Martial Arts before using his sword, Jericho can end the fight with the Codebreaker before Tsukasa uses his sword.

Imo, Jericho hitting the Codebreaker is more likely than Tsukasa wearing Jericho down with his sword. Even then, it's going to take more than one shot to take Jericho down. All Jericho needs is one move, and it's over.
 
The_Legendary_Vin said:
hows the codebreaker a one hit ko btw, can I get an explanation?
Click to expand...
It KO's the opponent when connected (wrestlers who kick out of finishers is more so they're Instinctive Reactions kicking in. Wrestlers are known for kicking out on instincts, specifically when they get hit by an opponents' finisher).
 
Even if it is not a KO effect, it's taken down the best of the best in the WWE, so it's going to do a number on Tsukasa.
 
RandomGuy2345 said:
It KO's the opponent when connected (wrestlers who kick out of finishers is more so they're Instinctive Reactions kicking in. Wrestlers are known for kicking out on instincts, specifically when they get hit by an opponents' finisher).
Click to expand...
I'm not seeing how this is a total wincon
 
The_Legendary_Vin said:
I'm not seeing how this is a total wincon
Click to expand...
I see it as a 100% win con, as it's taken down the best in the business, so the move is either going to KO or do a number on Tsukasa.

Also, Jericho won't hesitate to hit another if he sees that Tsukasa isn't down after one of them.
 
I mean this is the same man who somehow stayed conscience for 3700+ years and said "what's the situation" to senku seconds after being brought back from being stone
 
Spinoirr said:
I mean this is the same man who somehow stayed conscience for 3700+ years
Click to expand...
I don't think that this'll matter in a fight where the person you're facing is equal to you in many different ways.

Also, I'm going to need context for this, because I'm not sure if he was fighting someone when this was happening.
 
Spinoirr said:
Nah it's basically like him having his eyes closed in one place for that long
Click to expand...
This has nothing to do with combat at all, so I highly doubt that Tsukasa is going to remain conscious, and even if he is, he's going to be heavily damaged, which pretty much guarantees Jericho the victory here.
 
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