Tier 6 Nasuverse Calc Discussion (II)

[KnightOfSunlight]

Artoria also roflstomps Moon Crux Tamamo and Lu Bu at the same time in her route, and does the same to Gilgamesh and Iskandar later.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

eternal bumpage....

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

Hmmm maybe to add in the Tier 6 consistency, we can add this feat from best Saber?

Arthur in Fate/Prototype = https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:KamiYasha/Prototype_Saber%27s_and_Gil%27s_Ap_and_Speed_Calc#4:_Proto_Saber_VS_Flood_Revised_Editio

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Hmmm maybe to add in the Tier 6 consistency, we can add this feat from best Saber?
Arthur in Fate/Prototype = https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:KamiYasha/Prototype_Saber%27s_and_Gil%27s_Ap_and_Speed_Calc#4:_Proto_Saber_VS_Flood_Revised_Editio

im not aganist it, but id like to have some calc experts look at them.

 

[Diinou_HotHead]

Beware the Gameplay stuff though. Some times when ome beats another, it's usually Gameplay, especially Extella, with the Fighting Game mechanics.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Beware the Gameplay stuff though. Some times when ome beats another, it's usually Gameplay, especially Extella, with the Fighting Game mechanics.

it was all part of the lore. I made sure of that. Each character had to defeat the "Forces of the Umbral Star" which would be Iskander, Altera, Gilgamesh, jeanne that was an integeral and important factor in each route.

Gawain just before awakening his Numeral of the Saints. he had a cutscene visual novel thing of him doing an incantation to use it

 

[Diinou_HotHead]

Well, not too big scaling problems then.

They're in similar level of power anyways. But I'd still prefer not using the Extella scaling though. Unless it's Main Story thing.

Anyways, the calc SMG sent sound consistent. But like UpgradeMan said, send it to calc experts. Also send in the other relevant calcs for this thread too if we haven't yet.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Before work bump

 

[Diinou_HotHead]

Scaling for fun~ We already have the old scaling anyways, so this won't matter much, but:

A+(? Would be funny if raw STR made them stronger than A Rank NP, but not much to lose if Herc can swat an attack comparable to A Rank NP with all his might) => The feats (High 6-C) > A (Backscaled to 6-C) > B > C > D > E

For Extella scaling:

Nameless > Lu Bu > Li Shuwen > Gil & Iskandar & Jeanne (likely also Cu) > Artoria > Altera

Does this sound consistent?

 

[Diinou_HotHead]

BRUHMP

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

As I said before, I disagree with scaling strength to A Rank Noble Phantasms. The only other time that has been brought up where something even close happened was Gawain vs Karna, and Gawain was sun buffed, far above any normal Servant Physically, with Leo as a Master while Karna had Jinako. In general I prefer staying far away from Extella stuff, because they do a lot of shit that just breaks away from normal canon. Nero somehow surviving sun boosted Gawain's Excalibur Galatine to the face is one of the worst examples that come to mind, even if that was the anime.

And again, a degraded and not broken Caliburn by Saber broke Heracles axesword, the very same that took Caladbolg 2, broke it, then took 7 of his lives. Gilgamesh's Armor could easily take Saber's strikes just lifting his arms, but using Excalibur let her cleave through him like butter. The Apocrypha Servants were being matched physically by Adam, including the B+ STR Mordred, but a well timed double NP broke through him. Or how Armor of Fafnir substracts B+ power from NPs instead of the B from normal attacks, which makes no sense if NP are comparable in power to similar STR stats. If Herc can bat away A Rank NPs, and his own body and weapon don't get even chipped by his strength, what would he ever need Godhand for? He shouldn't even be scratched when his strength is comparable and it doesn't even chip his body, so his durability should be comparable.

So again, either Caladbolg 2 is weaker than it's rank would imply or its an outlier.

Also, do tell me, did Ishtar shoot Venus at Uruk, or she just shot one of her normal, whatever energy shots?

 

[Schnee_One]

Retract my agreement for option B for now.

 

[KnightOfSunlight]

We're gonna be here for another three threads at this rate...

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

My overall point with the Extella thing is that. Extella has its owj scaling, and it's for us to decide outlier or pis for Karna so his NP could be calc'ed.


Is that the only example of an A rank NP getting batted away?? Because it can be tossed up as outlier.


There wasn't any true name release for Ishtar if I remember the scene right, but she did say she was hanging in the Air for like an hour waiting for the orders to shoot.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Why not apply what was already approved of?

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Why not apply what was already approved of?

The problem is coming to agreement of either 6-C, or 7-A.....

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

High 7-A?

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

High 7-A?

My bad... Yeah that tier, but there is multiple, innumerable 6-C and High 6-C calcs now. Only 2 High 7-A ones and 1 (7-A) calc...

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Are parameters pure inconsistent BS???

 

[Schnee_One]

They have always been inconsistent BS in almost every series, not just Fate.

We rely way too much on them.

 

[Diinou_HotHead]

And again, a degraded and not broken Caliburn by Saber broke Heracles axesword, the very same that took Caladbolg 2, broke it, then took 7 of his lives. Gilgamesh's Armor could easily take Saber's strikes just lifting his arms, but using Excalibur let her cleave through him like butter...

...which makes no sense if NP are comparable in power to similar STR stats. If Herc can bat away A Rank NPs, and his own body and weapon don't get even chipped by his strength, what would he ever need Godhand for? He shouldn't even be scratched when his strength is comparable and it doesn't even chip his body, so his durability should be comparable...

...Also, do tell me, did Ishtar shoot Venus at Uruk, or she just shot one of her normal, whatever energy shots?

Why would Herc need God Hand if he can just bat NPs away? To defend against one that doesn't get batted away, of course. And he's not just batting it. It took all his strength to bat it. And why I chose backscaling is because of that. The original NP should still be wayyyy stronger than the double-step copy, I don't think just scaling below a low-end 6-C feat is enough. So I chose backscaling.

Wasn't Caliburn Rank A+ when it shot Herc? And Excalibur is A++ as far as I remember. So it should be more powerful than a degraded Caladbolg II Broken Phantasm.

And Ishtar should just shot a beam from her boat. Not releasing the True Name.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Considering the thing exploded and he was still completely unhurt, I am not so sure about it. And I know you chose backscaling, but I don't remember a single other instance of similar rank of STR scaling to an NP. Consider, for example, Herk getting penetrated by and losing a life to Durandina piercing him and Minotaur boi. An A Rank NP. Unless + is a way higher multiplier than we know of, that's the difference between getting one shot and batting a thing that exploded a literal meter away from you without a scratch.

That's its normal rank, not accounting to its degrade due to being traced. And keep in mind the description itself says Caliburn would break handling that much energy, but the sword is still complete inside Herk after the attack if my memory isn't wrong.

Again, my only proposal is 7-A, likely 6-C. Just gotta point out for 6-C that Vaporization for Ron is more likely and Ishtar's feat was actually a normal shot. With that much time, she could have easily charged soms jewels to make her attack more powerful as well, another uncertainty that makes me think is safer as likely than a definitive 6-C.

 

[Schnee_One]

You know what yeah, that makes sense now

I agree with option A for what Lancelot said

 

[Diinou_HotHead]

Well, now you said it like that. The Caladbold thingy is questionable anyways. But, wasn't Herc like, held back by Asterios when getting stabbed by Durindana? He didn't get to block it like with Caladbolg II

So Schnee gave the word on 7-A, likely 6-C

What do other people here think? Are we fine with it?

Personally, I'm fine either way.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

I know, but Herk's STR is A+ and his Endurance A, a two time difference at worst. Yet he bats away an A NP but gets one shot whe he can't hit it? He never gets hurt by his own attacks, so we would need to assume third law doesn't apply to Servants - which is obviously not true because Cu Alter rips himself to shreds with his version of Gae Bolg from how powerfully he throws the thing.

 

[Diinou_HotHead]

Gettig hurt by the NP is why he even turn back and bat it in the first place.

But then, I suppose you're right about the difference though.

Was Cualter's damage from how hard he threw it? I thought it was something about the NP itself.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

He doesn't use it in game, but CuZilla's version of Thrown Gae Bolg is thrown so hard, he rips himself up and then uses Runes to heal his body. The description does note that it does nothing to patch up the excruciating pain he feels, but he just deals with it.

 

[Diinou_HotHead]

I thought it was his Extra Attack animation.

Anyways, waiting for other people to give their inputs.

 

[Schnee_One]

Okay, so me and Lance are for 7A possibly 6C.

If there isn't anything else, I think some more agreements can settle this.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

If high 7-A is such a consistent thing. Why is there 6 other calcs in the 6-C tier will with only 2 High 7-A calcs?


if you want them to keep high 7-A so badly why not get the calc for Excalibur proto vakc checked and scale from that? It's at 370, or 340 megatons NVM it was revised


And Rhon vaporizing should be factual. It has an intense heat behind it and scales a thousand times above the strongest Noble Phantasm they ever observed. This was the shot that Arash blocked too. That shot was meant to kill heroic servants and Arash has a calc at around 27 gigatons or so 6-C

 

[Schnee_One]

(SIGH)

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

I already said vaporization is more likely because of how Ron works, but Servants themselves only have that potentially scaling them to Tier 6 aside from deflecting Caladbolg, but as I've explained, either A) Caladbolg is weaker than we think, B) Herk is dozens of times stronger than he is durable and Caladbolg's explosion, which he was like a meter or less away from the epicenter, is below 6-C because Herk wasn't even scratched by it, or C) is just a straight outlier. Batting away Caladbolg but getting one shot by Durandina makes no sense otherwise.

NPs of a similar power or rank can be 6-C or above, I never had any issue with it.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Neutral here but just wanna point out Herc just needs to deflect enough of the blast for it to no longer A rank to tank it with GH. Going by the parameters (dodgy as they are), he needs to deflect 20% of the blast which (still using parameters here) is half of the Calad Lily calc so he would scale to 10% of it.

 

[Schnee_One]

The parameters also state that the 5 Servants Raiko fought in FGO were 5x faster then her, yet she defeated all of them at once.

Parameters are inconsistent as hell

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Most of the time they make sense, but handling a bunch of different characters with less room for tons of text makes things funky.

And I mean, Axesword isn't protected by Godhand and it was completely fine after intercepting Caladbolg and being at the very epicenter od the attack. It still gives me odd vibes.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Parameters do not take skill into acount. Servants far stronger and faster can still lose to a more skilled servant.

 

[Schnee_One]

5x faster is enough to hit and kill someone before they can react, skill does not improve reaction time.

Especially 5 Servants, attacking you from every angle, who are all 5x faster

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

So 6-C NP's but physical stats such as casual slashes is High 7-A??? Well .. I'll vote whatever the rest of majority does


Has someone messaged monarch about this yet btw??

 

[Schnee_One]

I'm not even sure if Monarch wants to go through this many posts on multiple threads.

Then again he can see the current arguments and judge from there.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

I think this thread summarizes things good enough, and it has links to most of the primary stuff doesn't it? I could write out a summary once I get home if not??

But if he doesn't want too... We can't make him...