Tier 4 LN Momoshiki Key/profile pt2

[PandarianOda]

I listed a single arc as well and no they are not major differences you have listed

 

[fandom_100th_Hokage]

How so?

 

[PandarianOda]

Because two abilities and a better feat arent major differences.

A fight played out *slightly* differently, but didnt change the plot dramatically or lead to a different outcome, nor did it affect a major number of cast members or induce a major number of different abilities or scaling.

We also cant count the scaling to other characters because those characters do not have profiles so the only differences you have listed are

>space time creation

>absolute zero

And then some calcs that havent been accepted.

None of the other stuff matters at this point and two abilities is not a major difference enough for a complete new profile- MAYBE a key if the calcs were all accepted and we ended up making keys for every LN character.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

The actual differences I have seen so far are stats, 2 abilities and mention of different bits here and there. Even quoting NotCentered, "it just has a slightly different take on the fight and certain scenes".

How do you compare this to DBS Manga, where even in the tournament of arc the only thing it has in common with the anime is Goku getting UI and fighting Jiren, Universe 7 winning and Kale fusing with Caulifla? (As far as I can remember right now, at least).

 

[fandom_100th_Hokage]

How are these feats and changes minor? The way the main antagonist is killed is different via the main attack vainishing. The way secondary antagonist is defeated is different. He's significantly stronger and faster. Has as a major hax and creation ability. Also the protagonists scale to those major potency and speed differences. Urashiki isn't in it, neither is the Jogan, momoshiki also multiplies the Bijuudama several times rather than double. Doesn't give his a karma seal talk about different conclusion. Regardless another Key can work. As long as this isn't disregarded especially since it is on a canon timeline.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

How big the hax is really doesn't matter. And again, who scales is completely unimportant because it is a PROFILE FOR MOMO ONLY, and those details are minor. Momo doesn't behave any different, doesn't fight any different (I don't remember any mention of this either), is simply stronger and has 2 new abilities, only one of them which he would or has used in combat, he doesn't even have any different experiences beyond people dying differently and not talking about the Jogan. Not only is he barely different, the plot as well is barely different.

My singular opinion shouldn't stop a profile being made if others agree with it, but I doubt I'll be convinced. That's all I am saying.

 

[fandom_100th_Hokage]

I've just realised how vague the canon policy is I don't blame you. It just depends of how significant one believes the feats are. Momoshiki seems to be caught of guard in this Novel via arrogance, in the anime he is able to at least not be caught off guard via Boruto's shadow clones as much. The reason I said absolute zero is important is because it shows that characters in that novel have resistance to it.

 

[AstralKing7]

Momoshiki actually loses a lot of abilities and effects the plot so freaking heavy. The whole plot of the novel is completely different compared with to what Momoshiki's defeat caused in the manga

 

[fandom_100th_Hokage]

The karma thing is important too He looses the time stop ability and power bestowal

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Momoshiki actually loses a lot of abilities and effects the plot so freaking heavy. The whole plot of the novel is completely different compared with to what Momoshiki's defeat caused in the manga

That would have been deeply appreciated to be mentioned before, as I keep asking and all I get is only power scaling related changes or things like NotCentered saying "it just has a slightly different take on the fight and certain scenes".

 

[fandom_100th_Hokage]

I'm going work on the sandbox later

 

[fandom_100th_Hokage]

Momoshiki actually loses a lot of abilities and effects the plot so freaking heavy. The whole plot of the novel is completely different compared with to what Momoshiki's defeat caused in the manga

Ok thx astral, even though I have read it you seemed to be better versed at it so if you know any other differences I missed I wouldn't mind reading them.

 

[Antvasima]

We tend to try to avoid creating profiles for alternative non-canon versions of characters that are simply stronger versions of the originals, but otherwise identical.

Maybe we could simply add a footnote about that Momoshiki's alternative version is 4-A via pocket reality creation in his main profile page?

 

[Antvasima]

We should probably add a similar footnote in the Saitama page regarding that his anime version is "At least 5-B", as a compromise solution to common complaints.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

@Antvasima;

That's a pretty good idea, but if I may ask, would there be a problem with adding a key for his Movie/LN version to his existing profile? Or are the differences not enough for that as well?

 

[GTsek]

I agree, I think that if accept that of putting a note and there is nothing wrong with the speed calculation, there could be a note about speed too, although I don't know if these two feats of Momoshiki feats scale for combat speed, but because Sasuke saw the flow with his Rinnegan and Momoshiki can keep up with him I think it would be possible to put FTL+ in the him reaction speed, or in the him perception speed, I don't think MFTL+ is applicable.

 

[Lop222]

Maybe we could simply add a footnote about that Momoshiki's alternative version is 4-A via pocket reality creation in his main profile page?

Then naruto and sasuke should get one too. since 100th Hokage posted a scan where the novel says fused momoshiki= naruto and fused momoshiki = Sasuke

 

[Damage3245]

@UchihaSlayer96; there isn't enough to justify adding a whole other key to his profile.

 

[HST_Master]

I disagree as well. People keeps saying that the plot is radically different but they never bother to say how or give any context in detail and the differences that are given are nowhere near enough.

And I see people continuously bringing up DBs Alternative Continuity Profiles when that's a huge false equivalency. Those Profiles had to go through a lot of evidence and threads to prove they meet the standards of our canon page. The DBS Manga Profiles for Goku and Vegeta weren't even made until the end of the Goku Black Saga - The Tournament of Power which both are vastly different and the sole thing they share as Lancelot said is a beginning and a end. Character interactions are vastly different like Kale wanting nothing to do with Goku, Toppo and Goku having zero animosity between them thanks to the Zeno Exhibition Match unlike the anime, his attaining of Ultra Instinct, and methods to fight Goku Black are different so on and so forth especially with the addition of the Moro Arc, which for now totally separate from the anime and vice versa with the anime's filler arcs and equalling never rematching hit, meeting Arale again or fighting Copy Vegeta. This is no different than making a profile for Xenoverse Goku even though he's just the canon Goku but a higher tier and a handful more abilities or trying to make profiles for the movie versions of Battle of Gods and Resurrection F because they're their own continuity now and they're a different tier.

 

[Mindovin]

Is novel considered canon by whomever is have the rights to it? If it is then it can created if I understand this rule correctly: 1) Certain franchises feature several characters that are considered as equally valid "official" versions of the character. These types of profiles can generally be created without any problems.

 

[fandom_100th_Hokage]

If the note is added It'd require 4-A potency and Mftl+ speed

Abilities would require space-time manipulation and durability neg via absolute zero

He would loose Time- stop, Non-Corporeal and power bestowal

However I am working on a sandbox profile

 

[fandom_100th_Hokage]

I disagree as well. People keeps saying that the plot is radically different but they never bother to say how or give any context in detail and the differences that are given are nowhere near enough.

And I see people continuously bringing up DBs Alternative Continuity Profiles when that's a huge false equivalency. Those Profiles had to go through a lot of evidence and threads to prove they meet the standards of our canon page. The DBS Manga Profiles for Goku and Vegeta weren't even made until the end of the Goku Black Saga - The Tournament of Power which both are vastly different and the sole thing they share as Lancelot said is a beginning and a end. Character interactions are vastly different like Kale wanting nothing to do with Goku, Toppo and Goku having zero animosity between them thanks to the Zeno Exhibition Match unlike the anime, his attaining of Ultra Instinct, and methods to fight Goku Black are different so on and so forth especially with the addition of the Moro Arc, which for now totally separate from the anime and vice versa with the anime's filler arcs and equalling never rematching hit, meeting Arale again or fighting Copy Vegeta. This is no different than making a profile for Xenoverse Goku even though he's just the canon Goku but a higher tier and a handful more abilities or trying to make profiles for the movie versions of Battle of Gods and Resurrection F because they're their own continuity now and they're a different tier.

The novelisation is still acknowledged as canon by sj and kishi. Also if where talking about single arcs this has a good amount of changes it also has a more drastic tier difference usually that does effect the plot. The problem here is there isn't a non arbitrary way of knowing what is enough atm.

 

[fandom_100th_Hokage]

We tend to try to avoid creating profiles for alternative non-canon versions of characters that are simply stronger versions of the originals, but otherwise identical.

Maybe we could simply add a footnote about that Momoshiki's alternative version is 4-A via pocket reality creation in his main profile page?

I did list a bunch of abilities he looses too

 

[HST_Master]

It can be considered canon by the company still, Battle Of Gods and Resurrection F are also still considered Canon by Shueisha. That doesn't mean we'll make a profile for them or have to.

And again a arguable tier jump isn't enough. Xenoverse Goku goes from 3-C to 2-B and Battle of Gods Goku is unquantifiably above 4-B in comparison to Super Goku being 3-A. It's not just a single arc as I've already said The DBS Manga and Anime both have arcs separate from each other or are radically different from their counterpart, no Copy Vegeta Arc for the Manga, no MSSB for the Anime, No Hit Rematch for the Manga, No Moro Arc for the Anime (yet).

It's not different enough to gain a new profile or key nor is it similar enough to just use for upgrades. And just saying they're different isn't enough either.

 

[Antvasima]

Is novel considered canon by whomever is have the rights to it? If it is then it can created if I understand this rule correctly: 1) Certain franchises feature several characters that are considered as equally valid "official" versions of the character. These types of profiles can generally be created without any problems.

This is a valid point, and if the novel isn't canon somebody can probably add a footnote explanation instead. A similar footnote in the Saitama page would be appreciated as well. Just take into account that Momoshiki does definitely not seem to be physically 4-A, just via pocket reality creation.

 

[AstralKing7]

That would have been deeply appreciated to be mentioned before, as I keep asking and all I get is only power scaling related changes or things like NotCentered saying "it just has a slightly different take on the fight and certain scenes".


Sorry I started losing interest in this thread and only remembered all of this at that point

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

Is novel considered canon by whomever is have the rights to it? If it is then it can created if I understand this rule correctly: 1) Certain franchises feature several characters that are considered as equally valid "official" versions of the character. These types of profiles can generally be created without any problems.

This is a valid point, and if the novel isn't canon somebody can probably add a footnote explanation instead. A similar footnote in the Saitama page would be appreciated as well. Just take into account that Momoshiki does definitely not seem to be physically 4-A, just via pocket reality creation.

We scale stats based on dimension creation, it's done for all other profiles, why would it be any different for Momoshiki?

 

[AstralKing7]

I definitely agree with that^ Should we stop doing it for all profilesv

 

[Damage3245]

@AstralKing7; unless it is tied in some way to their offensive abilities / attack power, I do think it doesn't make a lot of sense to rate them based on it.

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

@AstralKing7; unless it is tied in some way to their offensive abilities / attack power, I do think it doesn't make a lot of sense to rate them based on it.

That seems like a separate thread all together.

 

[NotCensored]

The generally agreed-upon definition is that the work by the original author and creator of the fictional setting is canonical, unless the author or the copyright holder declares otherwise. Few other exceptions are also possible and should be noted on the verse page.

>The Novel was written by Kodachi the writer of Boruto

>SJ has continuously put it in Canon Timelines and it was never stated by Kishimoto or Kodachi to not be Canon in the first place

The primary canon is the source material first released (with few possible exceptions), with the other author works being secondary canon.

>Going off of this it would at least be secondary canon or some weird limbo between primary and secondary canon

When different source materials give different versions of the same feat, and by that they contradict each other in the depiction of the feat, the primary canon takes precedence over the secondary canon.

>The feat only exists in the novel so it doesn't contridict the manga or anime the primary canons on the wiki

So a foot note should be put on the profile or literally anything (idc what form it takes) as long as it acknowledges this novels existence

 

[Damage3245]

The events / fight that the novel depicts has been overwritten by the manga, so it should not be considered canon.

 

[NotCensored]

The events / fight that the novel depicts has been overwritten by the manga, so it should not be considered canon.

Its at least Secondary Canon going off the rules this wiki uses and the only time Primary Canon is over Secondary Canon is when depictions of the same feat reach different results, this feat only exists in the Novel therefore theres no reason to use the Primary Canon over it in this particular case but for example the Manga's Vanishing Rasengan would take president over the Novels verison

 

[fandom_100th_Hokage]

This is a valid point, and if the novel isn't canon somebody can probably add a footnote explanation instead. A similar footnote in the Saitama page would be appreciated as well. Just take into account that Momoshiki does definitely not seem to be physically 4-A, just via pocket reality creation.

Here's the problem, momoshiki states his rasengan against Boruto was his greatest technique hence he has 4-A potency

 

[fandom_100th_Hokage]

The events / fight that the novel depicts has been overwritten by the manga, so it should not be considered canon.

The point is that even so it's on the timeline. Meaning it's not retconned. Kishimoto vouching for Kodachi the writer of Boruto

 

[AstralKing7]

@AstralKing7; unless it is tied in some way to their offensive abilities / attack power, I do think it doesn't make a lot of sense to rate them based on it.

See this is a whole new thread. We follow what's already done. A crt should be made about how this wiki handles things

 

[fandom_100th_Hokage]

 

[Damage3245]

@NotCensored; the fact that the feat didn't happen at all in the manga means that it takes precedence over the light novel and we should ignore the feat.

@100th Hokage; was it stated that the creating the dimensions was a technique? If not, then that statement is irrelevant.

 

[fandom_100th_Hokage]

@NotCensored; the fact that the feat didn't happen at all in the manga means that it takes precedence over the light novel and we should ignore the feat.

@100th Hokage; was it stated that the creating the dimensions was a technique? If not, then that statement is irrelevant.

Why would it not be a technique? Also Kaguya's steams from creation of all things technique

Also the point is it differs from the manga yet is on timeline. Nobody's arguing to add it to the main continuity momoshiki

 

[fandom_100th_Hokage]

Technique is just an ability/feat