Tier 1 AP & Range Separation?

[Antvasima]

For the record, I still think that interdimensional range seems fine as it is, and it serves as a quite linear intermediate and specific progression that way.

 

[Agnaa]

In short, characters won't reach ranges beyond Interdimensional unless their attacks can reach anywhere in a higher-dimensional space that qualifies for higher tiers.

Characters who are said to be 10-dimensional won't get High Complex Multiversal range if those dimensions don't qualify by our standards.

As an extension of this, characters who scale to valid higher-D feats, but who only have short range attacks, won't get those ranges.

Instead, such characters would get Interdimensional (if they reach outside of a single universe's conventional spacetime), or an appropriate range below that.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, the issue is that I think that our current definitions of Interdimensional, Low Multiversal, Multiversal, and Multiversal+ seem good as they are as far as I am concerned.

Except for that I think that the suggestions in your last post here in this thread seem sensible.

 

[Agnaa]

I think they do kinda imply that sorta thing already, but some people wanted it to be rewritten to spell that out.

I think the minimum needed would be, in most range definitions above Multiversal+, changing "throughout" to "anywhere within". i.e. Hyperversal would become

Attacks and abilities that are able to reach anywhere within 12-dimensional or above space, without being able to reach anywhere within an infinite number of dimensions.

Some more extensive changes could be. Such as adding another sentence or two to Interdimensional, or changing those higher-D ranges to better accommodate all verses by putting its language more in line with the Tiering System page.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, as I implied, I do not personally mind except for that Interdimensional range should strictly mean shooting energy beams or teleporting between different universes and similar, whereas Low Multiversal range should mean reaching two to a thousand universes at the same time with some ability.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Bump.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Bump.

 

[KLOL506]

Well, as I implied, I do not personally mind except for that Interdimensional range should strictly mean shooting energy beams or teleporting between different universes and similar, whereas Low Multiversal range should mean reaching two to a thousand universes at the same time with some ability.

Bump

Shouldn't this portion be a different thread?

So, travelling from one universe/dimension to another is Interdimensional, while affecting the entire structure or entire dimensional reality all at once would grant you Low Multiversal/Tier 1 range or something, right?

 

[Antvasima]

Bump

Shouldn't this portion be a different thread?

So, travelling from one universe/dimension to another is Interdimensional, while affecting the entire structure or entire dimensional reality all at once would grant you Low Multiversal/Tier 1 range or something, right?

That is correct, yes. Thank you.

 

[KLOL506]

That is correct, yes. Thank you.

Then that means we need to make a revision regarding this topic, as it is a site-wide issue.

 

[KLOL506]

Then that means we need to make a revision regarding this topic, as it is a site-wide issue.

Or is this thread literally what it aims to clarify?

 

[KLOL506]

Bump

Shouldn't this portion be a different thread?

So, travelling from one universe/dimension to another is Interdimensional, while affecting the entire structure or entire dimensional reality all at once would grant you Low Multiversal/Tier 1 range or something, right?

@DontTalkDT @Ultima_Reality I get it right?

 

[Agnaa]

That's right, and is one of the topics that came up in this thread, as it's about high-tier characters and range.

 

[KLOL506]

Guess we can tackle both topics for Tier 2 and 1 right now while we're at it.

 

[Antvasima]

Then that means we need to make a revision regarding this topic, as it is a site-wide issue.

I do not understand the problem here, as what I described is the intended meaning of our current standards as far as I recall.

Please elaborate.

 

[KLOL506]

I do not understand the problem here, as what I described is the intended meaning of our current standards as far as I recall.

Please elaborate.

Basically, a lot of profiles here assume moving from universe to universe is automatically Low Multiversal range or moving to a 5-D Low 1-C realm is automatically Low Complex Multiversal range.

Those need to be changed to Interdimensional, based on the above reasonings.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, that is correct. Does this need to be better clarified in our Range page?

 

[Agnaa]

I made a suggestion in line with that.

One of my most recent posts here held a summary. After that, all that happened was me suggesting a way to get Interdimensional more in line with what it was intended to mean.

From then, I guess what's left to do is:

1. Come to a consensus on my suggested Range changes (KingPin and Ultima had some minor disagreements, DontTalk was unclear but seemed to agree with them).
2. Trying to nail down some more concrete suggestions for Tiering System FAQ changes, or deciding to nix that idea.
3. Getting other people's input on my suggestion for Interdimensional range.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you.

Can you explain, or quote explanations regarding, what exactly that needs to be evaluated here, and which staff members that think what here please?

 

[KLOL506]

Yes, that is correct. Does this need to be better clarified in our Range page?

Yes.

 

[Agnaa]

This post summarizes most of the changes I suggest to the Range and Tiering System FAQ pages.

Universal+ to Multiversal+ seem fine.

Interdimensional is technically fine, I'd need to ask people who had the impression that small higher-D range doesn't fall under it to explain why.

The higher ranges mostly just need "throughout" changed to "anywhere within".

Hyperversal should be more like "Attacks and abilities that are able to reach anywhere within 12-dimensional or above space, without reaching through an infinite number of dimensions."

I'd change High Hyperversal to "Attacks and abilities that are able to reach anywhere within an infinite number of dimensions of space and/or time."

For the rest it's still mostly just adding in "anywhere within".

For the parts of the Q&A that may need further attention...

The "Q: When are higher dimensions not viable to use as evidence for Tier 2 and above?" section gave Greenshifter and Sevil Natas the impression that mass or qualitative superiority is the only important thing; that an attack could affect all of a Low 1-C construct without being Low 1-C, which goes against our standards. I'm not sure how to reword this section to rectify this.

The "Q: When are higher dimensions valid, then?" section doesn't make it clear what a dimension being "fully-sized" means, which makes our standards unclear. Given what I believe the current standards are, "be fully-sized in order to qualify" should probably be changed to something like "be at least as large as the observable universe in order to qualify".

Also, I'm not sure where, but with that last change, we'd probably want a note somewhere that in those cases, a character would have to affect the entirety of that fully-sized dimension in order to qualify. I'm not sure what sort of wording to give to this; my only ideas are overly clunky and don't distinguish between "Affected the entirety of 6-D and ignored all other dimensions", "Affected the entirety of 6-D, 5-D, 4-D, 3-D, 2-D, and 1-D, and that's all that exists", and "Affected the entirety of 6-D, 5-D... when 7-D and 8-D also exist", while a distinction does need to be drawn; the first wouldn't qualify, and the second and third would qualify and would reach the same tier.

This post suggests the sort of thing I'd want to clarify with Interdimensional range.

I'd want to clarify that "beyond the conventional space-time of a single universe" can also mean small-scale higher-dimensional/realm stuff (where their small influence in a higher dimension/realm doesn't correspond to covering the entirety of an ordinary 3-D universe), not just tier 2-esque equal realm stuff. But I feel like that's implied by the current definition, and becomes more strongly implied with my suggested changes to the higher-D ranges.

 

[KLOL506]

The higher ranges mostly just need "throughout" changed to "anywhere within".

Hyperversal should be more like "Attacks and abilities that are able to reach anywhere within 12-dimensional or above space, without reaching through an infinite number of dimensions."

Prolly should be worded a bit differently. How about this?

"Attacks and abilities that are able to affect/reach/encompass all of 12-dimensional or above space, without reaching through an infinite number of dimensions"

Since Ant clarified simply travelling between them isn't enough, you'd need to affect all of them.

I'd change High Hyperversal to "Attacks and abilities that are able to reach anywhere within an infinite number of dimensions of space and/or time."

This one would be changed similarly to "Attacks and abilities that are able to affect/reach/encompass everything within an infinite number of dimensions of space and/or time".

Of course, if you think this is too hyperspecific, I will not oppose you.

 

[Agnaa]

That doesn't seem consistent with how we otherwise give attacks ranges. An attack can be universal even if it's just a gun, as long as it can hit targets anywhere within a universe. I don't think we should require those higher ranges to deviate from this.

Simply traveling between isn't enough, since that doesn't mean it can travel to anywhere in those realms.

 

[KLOL506]

That doesn't seem consistent with how we otherwise give attacks ranges. An attack can be universal even if it's just a gun, as long as it can hit targets anywhere within a universe. I don't think we should require those higher ranges to deviate from this.

Well, that's what it sounded to me based on what Ant said. If you have better suggestions, that would certainly be appreciated.

Simply traveling between isn't enough, since that doesn't mean it can travel to anywhere in those realms.

I was under the impression that attacks fell under the same circumstances as those travel feats, like say, a bullet sniping from point A to point B except point B is multiple universes away.

 

[Agnaa]

I was under the impression that attacks fell under the same circumstances as those travel feats, like say, a bullet sniping from point A to point B except point B is multiple universes away.

Yes, but some characters can do things like sniping several universes away, without being able to snipe someone on Mars.

That's why I suggested the move to "anywhere within".

 

[KLOL506]

Hmmmmm. How would stuff like BFR and Teleportation work under this? They would get interdimensional range?

 

[Antvasima]

Agnaa:

Do you think that our current "Interdimensional" range is sufficiently well-defined, and if not, how would you further clarify it?

 

[Agnaa]

Hmmmmm. How would stuff like BFR and Teleportation work under this? They would get interdimensional range?

If they can't teleport/BFR anywhere within the universe, but can teleport/BFR outside of it, yes.

If they can, then they'd get a range rating equivalent to the largest structure they can reach anywhere within.

Agnaa:

Do you think that our current "Interdimensional" range is sufficiently well-defined, and if not, how would you further clarify it?

I think it's well-defined, but it seems like some people get confused by it as-is, especially with the current state of the other range ratings and the tiering system FAQ.

Maybe I could clarify it by changing "such as into external pocket realities or parts of other universes" to "such as into external pocket realities, parts of other universes, or higher realms".

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That seems fine, thank you.

 

[KLOL506]

Yes, but some characters can do things like sniping several universes away, without being able to snipe someone on Mars.

That's why I suggested the move to "anywhere within".

So attacks based on striking enemies a universe or two away would garner Low Multi range, and similar?

If they can, then they'd get a range rating equivalent to the largest structure they can reach anywhere within.

So something like Interdimensional and Universal range together? Sorry I couldn't come up with a better example.

 

[Agnaa]

So attacks based on striking enemies a universe or two away would garner Low Multi range, and similar?

No, that'd just be interdimensional. They'd have to be able to attack anywhere in the space-time of multiple space-time continuums, or a comparable construct, to get low multi range.

...Actually, should those higher range ratings say something like "or a construct accepted to be of comparable size" to accommodate characters with R>F differences and the like?

So something like Interdimensional and Universal range together? Sorry I couldn't come up with a better example.

Yeah pretty much. That's why in lower tiers you sometimes get characters with ranges like "Tens of kilometers and interdimensional", since they can affect things up to tens of kilometers away in other universes.

 

[KLOL506]

No, that'd just be interdimensional. They'd have to be able to attack anywhere in the space-time of multiple space-time continuums, or a comparable construct, to get low multi range.

Hmmmmmm.

...Actually, should those higher range ratings say something like "or a construct accepted to be of comparable size" to accommodate characters with R>F differences and the like?

I have no idea.

Yeah pretty much. That's why in lower tiers you sometimes get characters with ranges like "Tens of kilometers and interdimensional", since they can affect things up to tens of kilometers away in other universes.

Interesting.

 

[Antvasima]

No, that'd just be interdimensional. They'd have to be able to attack anywhere in the space-time of multiple space-time continuums, or a comparable construct, to get low multi range.

Make that strike everywhere within them at the same time.

...Actually, should those higher range ratings say something like "or a construct accepted to be of comparable size" to accommodate characters with R>F differences and the like?

Please elaborate.

Yeah pretty much. That's why in lower tiers you sometimes get characters with ranges like "Tens of kilometers and interdimensional", since they can affect things up to tens of kilometers away in other universes.

I think that such cases more depend on the differing ranges for different abilities.

 

[Agnaa]

Make that strike everywhere within them at the same time.

I disagree, since treating range like that would make us unable to give guns "Hundreds of meters", since they can't strike everywhere within a 100m sphere at the same time.

Please elaborate.

Our higher range ratings only cover one way of reaching tiers. With the way it's currently worded, it sounds like 7-dimensional characters would get Complex Multiversal range, but characters with 5 reality-fiction differences would be stuck at Universal+ to Multiversal+ range, since they make no dimension of higher dimensions.

I think that such cases more depend on the differing ranges for different abilities.

Probably on most pages they just list Interdimensional, but I do think it'd be more informative if they listed another range rating as well.

 

[KLOL506]

If they can't teleport/BFR anywhere within the universe, but can teleport/BFR outside of it, yes.

If they can, then they'd get a range rating equivalent to the largest structure they can reach anywhere within.

So let's say a teleport/BFR happens multiple universes away (Or to a higher-dimensional Tier 1 construct), and they can teleport/BFR to any part within that far-away universe (Or higher-dimensional Tier 1 construct), what range are we looking at?

 

[Agnaa]

So let's say a teleport/BFR happens multiple universes away (Or to a higher-dimensional Tier 1 construct), and they can teleport/BFR to any part within that far-away universe (Or higher-dimensional Tier 1 construct), what range are we looking at?

Multiversal or whatever, I'd say.

 

[KLOL506]

Multiversal or whatever, I'd say.

Thanks for the elaboration.

 

[Antvasima]

I disagree, since treating range like that would make us unable to give guns "Hundreds of meters", since they can't strike everywhere within a 100m sphere at the same time.

Multiversal ranges tend to demand being able to destroy a number of entire universal continuums, so it isn't the same type of situation as far as I am aware.

Our higher range ratings only cover one way of reaching tiers. With the way it's currently worded, it sounds like 7-dimensional characters would get Complex Multiversal range, but characters with 5 reality-fiction differences would be stuck at Universal+ to Multiversal+ range, since they make no dimension of higher dimensions.

Well, 7-dimensional characters do not necessarily have power of a 1-C scale, so not as far as I am aware at least.

Probably on most pages they just list Interdimensional, but I do think it'd be more informative if they listed another range rating as well.

Well, "Range: Hundreds of Meters via energy blasts. Interdimensional via teleportation.", as we currently use, seems like a good system to me at least.

 

[Agnaa]

Multiversal ranges tend to demand being able to destroy a number of entire universal continuums, so it isn't the same type of situation as far as I am aware.

That's difficult to apply widely. Some characters have hax that is shown acting on other characters across such large constructs, but which couldn't be assumed to work on the entire structure itself. I think it'd be weird to give these characters low ranges.

Well, 7-dimensional characters do not necessarily have power of a 1-C scale, so not as far as I am aware at least.

Yes, but that's not what the current wording implies. It both doesn't require those higher-dimensional characters to qualify for our tiering system, and it only mentions dimensions, not structures that would qualify under our tiering system to have an equivalent size.

 

[Antvasima]

That's difficult to apply widely. Some characters have hax that is shown acting on other characters across such large constructs, but which couldn't be assumed to work on the entire structure itself. I think it'd be weird to give these characters low ranges.

Well, we do have the Interdimensional range for characters that can simply reach other universes with their attacks for example, so we shouldn't unnecessarily mix things up, but please summarise what you have in mind as a potential improvement.

Yes, but that's not what the current wording implies. It both doesn't require those higher-dimensional characters to qualify for our tiering system, and it only mentions dimensions, not structures that would qualify under our tiering system to have an equivalent size.

Okay. That likely needs to be corrected then. Again, please remind me what you have in mind in this regard.