The Witch of Envy vs The Bow of church

[Fezzih_007]

I gonna make a profile for the Remake characters for Tsukihime, but before that i want to make this battle to see how much Ciel profile is old.

Both High 6-C
Melty blood Ciel Key
Witch of Envy is used
WoE is already in her shadow form
Ciel can go into her powered state at any time
They start 50 meters apart
SBA the rest

Dark Emilia:Zabazab, Satella, Greatsage13th, SubaruN2000
-Senpai: Fezzih_007
Inconclusive:

 

[Fezzih_007]

Wincons for both:
Ciel
Can resist pretty much all Satella haxes
Higher Ap: 216.2 Gigatons vs 101.8 Gigatons meaning a 2,12x ap advantage
Better weapons
Black Keys can pin dows her shadow
Her Seventh holy scripture can destroy soul, which Satella don't resist
Black Barrel can also negates Satella imortality
More skilled in combat
Her mystic eyes can hypnotize Satella If she makes eyes contact
Ciel is faster (uspcale Far higher for 2.31c)
Can trow Black Key faster that her base speed
Sattela
Her shadows can cancel out pshical attack, meaning only magical attack works
Better lifting strenght, so she can take Ciel weapons out her hands
Can also ragdoll Ciel, If she catch her.
Her shadows can absorbs things, so she can absorbs the Black bareel if she takes them
Immortality, so Ciel needs to use the Seventh holy scripture or Black Barrel
Her shadows have intangibility.
Danmaku with 2000 hands, which can overwhelm Ciel (but since have a better AP here, is not gonna give much demage)

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

How did you manage to find such a perfect counter to Satella-

Anyways, i dont think 2x is that much of a AP difference and Satella can probably take her out with well placed danmakus and whatever she misses can be used as land mines that she can absorb her with.
One more thing, Satella uses 2000 hands atleast not 1000 and she can reverse time if things seem too dire, how will Ciel deal with that?

I also think its noteworthy to mention that Reid can cut Regulus and has conceptual hax but is still unable to kill Satella so its a bit iffy on how much the concpetual hax would work

 

[Zabazab]

Am I being dumb or is there no actual wincon for Satella?

All you've listed are her pluses, but disarming Ciel and absorbing her weapons is pointless since then she'll just nuke her with 2x ap advantage magic or hypnotize her.

Black Keys would instantly pin Satella who is herself one massive shadow and then petrify her, and the anti-immortality weapons speak for themselves.

Meanwhile none of Satella's hax affects Ciel and her ap is too low to kill her the usual way, she has no way to put Ciel down at all while Ciel has ways to one-shot off the the bat and ways win in a dragged out fight.

 

[Fezzih_007]

All you've listed are her pluses, but disarming Ciel and absorbing her weapons is pointless since then she'll just nuke her with 2x ap advantage magic or hypnotize her.

Which nuke Magic are you talking about? Because in her profile she don't have any notable attacks that nuke people.
And does she hypnotize in character? Because even If she tries, her mystic eyes needs to do eye contact, in each is gonna be hard since Satella uses a hood and there's over a thounsand Hands attacking her, that's wincon that's going to be hard to happen.
And no, she can't just nuke Satella, because she is immortal.

Black Keys would instantly pin Satella who is herself one massive shadow and then petrify her, and the anti-immortality weapons speak for themselves.

Not really how Satella shadows works, Ciel can PIN down normal shadow, not Satella shadows.

Meanwhile none of Satella's hax affects Ciel

Actually, she does have a hax that affect Ciel, being emphatetic Manipulation, but you can see the profile to see How that's not gonna help her Win.

and her ap is too low to kill her the usual way

She shadows Hands also have intangibility, and her AP being too low don't matter since she have 1000 Hands attacking Ciel.
And not even too low, what are talking about?

, she has no way to put Ciel down at all while

Better lifting strenght, intangibility...

Ciel has ways to one-shot off the the bat and ways win in a dragged out fight.

Satella have better stamina than Ciel, só in a dragged out fight that's her Win.

 

[Huesito88]

Speed is unequalized Nasuverse scales to a calculated FTL

 

[Fezzih_007]

How did you manage to find such a perfect counter to Satella-

I don't know

Anyways, i dont think 2x is that much of a AP difference and Satella can probably take her out with well placed danmakus and whatever she misses can be used as land mines that she can absorb her with.

Ciel resisti absorption, and what land mines?

One more thing, Satella uses 2000 hands atleast not 1000 and she can reverse time if things seem too dire, how will Ciel deal with that?

Ciel resisti time Manipulation
And is 2000 Hands? Can you show me a Scan?

I also think its noteworthy to mention that Reid can cut Regulus and has conceptual hax but is still unable to kill Satella so its a bit iffy on how much the concpetual hax would work

Ciel conceptual Hax is 4D layered, Regulus is not.
And that don't make any sense, because you assuming things.

 

[Fezzih_007]

Speed is unequalized Nasuverse scales to a calculated FTL

Satella is also FTL.
But in each valor is the speed of nasuverse?

 

[Zabazab]

Y'know what if you don't think Black Keys can pin down Satella's shadows made from Yin Magic, then Satella might actually take this.

Satella's usual tactic is just to release her shadows outwards in a massive AOE, which- if you think they can- would absorb Ciels weapons and intangibly pass through Ciel, ripping up her organs.

Ciel's regen would of course prevent immediate death from her heart & intenstines getting minced but if her brain gets done in that's it for her right?

2000 intangible shadow hands plus the expanding mass of shadows would likely obscure Satella's body from attack anyway, even if Ciel has the ap to blow holes in the mass of shadows (with magic ofc since they nullify physical attacks).

 

[Fezzih_007]

Y'know what if you don't think Black Keys can pin down Satella's shadows made from Yin Magic, then Satella might actually take this.

Is not that i don't think It can't, is more like Satella can separate for the pinned down shadow, like her PIN down one shadow, but that's not going paralysis Satella since is separate for her, and she can continue attacking.

Satella's usual tactic is just to release her shadows outwards in a massive AOE, which- if you think they can- would absorb Ciels weapons and intangibly pass through Ciel, ripping up her organs.

I think she needs to concetrate to make her shadows intangibility, so Ciel have a chance to get away before that.

Ciel's regen would of course prevent immediate death from her heart & intenstines getting minced but if her brain gets done in that's it for her right?

She don't have imortality in this Key, but she can still heal herself.

2000 intangible shadow hands plus the expanding mass of shadows would likely obscure Satella's body from attack anyway, even if Ciel has the ap to blow holes in the mass of shadows (with magic ofc since they nullify physical attacks).

Yeah, so Ciel would probally use the Black Barrel or Seven to some demage, and i believe she can do since Satella absorption don't work on her, so she can probally just walk around her shadows.

She can also attack from afar with the Soul attack using this:

2:15

 

[Fezzih_007]

Oh right, Satella can't actually absorb the Seven Holy Scripture, since the weapon is a person that also resist Absorbtion, forgot about that.

 

[Zabazab]

Oh I don't see resistence to straight durability negation on her profile, does something stop Satella's attacks from just dicing her then?

"Anyways, Shamak, in essence, can separate space from space if so inclined; as well as that, it can separate objects, no matter how strong they are. It’s the Witch of Envy’s speciality, in fact." - Arc 7 Chapter 1

 

[Fezzih_007]

Oh I don't see resistence to straight durability negation on her profile, does something stop Satella's attacks from just dicing her then?

Her Durability negation is from her spartial Manipulation, in each Ciel resist.

I gonna start counting votes now.

 

[Zabazab]

Her Durability negation is from her spartial Manipulation, in each Ciel resist.

I gonna start counting votes now.

I disagree.

Beatrice states that Shamak is "Seperation Magic". A low grade Shamak can seperate the senses from the body. A high grade Shamak can seperate space from space.

Shamak is explicitly not spatial in nature, the power to "seperate objects no matter how hard they are" comes from Shamak, not the spatial seperation that Shamak is also capable of.

Shamak is the source of the sense manip, pure dura neg, and spatial manip.
The pure dura neg does not come from spatial manip, even though ofc spatial manip is a form of dura neg too.

Here's the full quote explaining it:

Beatrice: “…That would be Betty, I suppose. My prognosis isn’t all that different from Julius’ either, in fact. That thing was a clump of Yin, I suppose. It’s close to a Shamak that’s been given direction, in fact.”

Echidna: “Shamak? Isn’t that the basic magic of the Yin Attribute? How was it then so powerful?”

Beatrice: “…I knew there were going to be quite a few humans who’d misunderstand since there are hardly any users of it. However, it’s troubling that even you think of it like that, when you’re a Spirit like me, in fact.”

Beatrice: “Shamak’s special quality is in “Separation”, in fact. A low-grade Shamak separates one’s body from their awareness, whereas a high-grade Shamak rends space from itself, I suppose. Betty’s Door Crossing is one such application, linking two rooms together, and achieving something close to teleportation, in fact.”

Ram: “That was the contraption Beatrice-sama had set up in the previous mansion. It was a real pain having to call her for mealtimes, so to be quite honest, I’d gotten fed up with it.”

Beatrice: “It really upsets Betty that you’d say that so honestly right here, right now, I suppose. I do believe I am sorry about it, but the apologies can wait until later… Anyways, Shamak, in essence, can separate space from space if so inclined; as well as that, it can separate objects, no matter how strong they are. It’s the Witch of Envy’s speciality, in fact.”

 

[Fezzih_007]

I disagree.

Beatrice states that Shamak is "Seperation Magic". A low grade Shamak can seperate the senses from the body. A high grade Shamak can seperate space from space.

Shamak is explicitly not spatial in nature, the power to "seperate objects no matter how hard they are" comes from Shamak, not the spatial seperation that Shamak is also capable of.

Shamak is the source of the sense manip, pure dura neg, and spatial manip.
The pure dura neg does not come from spatial manip, even though ofc spatial manip is a form of dura neg too.

Here's the full quote explaining it:

That's don't make any sense, but you right só okay.

Anyway, yeah Ciel have things she can do to not get dura neg.

 

[Zabazab]

Just saying "she has things she can do" isn't really helpful for explaining why getting hit once by a shadow wouldn't mince her. If dura neg gets negated by something Ciel has please tell me.

I currently think that while Ciel is more than capable of killing Satella with her many weapons, Satella making any contact at all is a far better wincon here.

Danmaku of 2000 shadow hands from above, the ground coated in shadows below, I think Satella takes this by "seperating" Ciel into ribbons.

 

[Fezzih_007]

Just saying "she has things she can do" isn't really helpful for explaining why getting hit once by a shadow wouldn't mince her. If dura neg gets negated by something Ciel has please tell me.

Sorry, i forgot to say, anyway she can just avoid all Satella attacks with her Black keys, since It can pin down her shadows to stop moving, her also faster than Satella so caughting her is gonna be super difficulty, and her can also Just shot her from afar with Black Barrel.

Só bassicaly, avoid Shamak when she uses It.

I currently think that while Ciel is more than capable of killing Satella with her many weapons, Satella making any contact at all is a far better wincon here.

Danmaku of 2000 shadow hands from above, the ground coated in shadows below, I think Satella takes this by "seperating" Ciel into ribbons.

Right, i counted you vote then.

 

[Fezzih_007]

Oh, does Satella durability negation is Magic? Because Ciel resist that weirdly enough.
"All magi and characters with Magic Circuits have resistance to magical effects that aim to control and create effects within others, by rejecting the effect with magical energy"
So Ciel can resist Magic by using more Magic.

 

[Zabazab]

All of Satella's attacks are magical in nature, she has never fought physically.

If Ciel's magic resistence applies to anything that is magic, rather than just the magic that she has resisted/can resist in her verse, then Satella literally cannot damage her, making this a stomp match.

 

[Fezzih_007]

All of Satella's attacks are magical in nature, she has never fought physically.

If Ciel's magic resistence applies to anything that is magic, rather than just the magic that she has resisted/can resist in her verse, then Satella literally cannot damage her, making this a stomp match.

Not really, Ciel just resist Hax effects, not magical attacks in general.

 

[Fezzih_007]

And she need to be aware to resist the effects.

 

[Zabazab]

If she needs to be aware of the hax to resist it then I don't think I'll change my opinion, the first hit will be fatal.

 

[Fezzih_007]

If she needs to be aware of the hax to resist it then I don't think I'll change my opinion, the first hit will be fatal.

She can heal herself trought, but yeah okay.

 

[Fezzih_007]

I gonna need some other people that know Ciel to give the imput here.

 

[Zabazab]

'Tella turned baby boy Garf into a red mist... I don't think Ciel could regen that with low-mid.

My opinion is open to change though if Ciel has a better wincon than Satella's "touch her once with ridiculous danmaku".

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

I don't know

Ciel resisti absorption, and what land mines?

Ciel resisti time Manipulation
And is 2000 Hands? Can you show me a Scan?

Puck mentioned in the anime that 1000 was half of what Satella could produce. Echidnut showed rhat part in his trivia video

Re:Zero Quiz - Can You Pass? / Echidnut

Ciel conceptual Hax is 4D layered, Regulus is not.
And that don't make any sense, because you assuming things.

Regulus ignores both time and space, so his should also be 4D and since Reid can cut through it he should be able to cut through 4D conceptual hax too. He still is unable to cut through Satella

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

'Tella turned baby boy Garf into a red mist... I don't think Ciel could regen that with low-mid.

My opinion is open to change though if Ciel has a better wincon than Satella's "touch her once with ridiculous danmaku".

Ok dam...i was gonna go for ciel but yeah count my vote for best girl Satella

 

[Zabazab]

Puck mentioned in the anime that 1000 was half of what Satella could produce. Echidnut showed rhat part in his trivia video

I'd probably recommend just using Puck's quote "If you truly wish to kill me, then bring forth a thousand shadows- half of what Satella could.", rather than an Echidnut pop quiz video.

Echidnut did spread the "Reinhard can beat the sun" misconception after all.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

I'd probably recommend just using Puck's quote "If you truly wish to kill me, then bring forth a thousand shadows- half of what Satella could.", rather than an Echidnut pop quiz video.

Echidnut did spread the "Reinhard can beat the sun" misconception after all.

I still find it funny how fast that misconception went flying, although this one is pretty reliable considering we even get the panty reveal for Elsa

 

[Fezzih_007]

And she need to be aware to resist the effects.

I am wrong by the way, i kinda confused with Dragon Ball, they don't need to be aware actually.

1:47:31

 

[Fezzih_007]

Echidnut did spread the "Reinhard can beat the sun" misconception after all.

I always got confused by that, because you can't defeat the Sun in a battle.

 

[Zabazab]

I am wrong by the way, i kinda confused with Dragon Ball, they don't need to be aware actually.

1:47:31

If this applies to all magic hax abilities, and not just the magic resistences shown by Ciel/those comparable to her, then again we have a situation where Ciel has 4D(?) resistance to everything Satella has, is twice as strong as her, and can easily kill her with soul hax, concept hax, immortality neg, etc. And Satella probably can't deal enough damage to actually wear her down faster than her regen.

That just sounds unfair to me personally.

I always got confused by that, because you can't defeat the Sun in a battle.

You also can't really "fight" the intangible will of the World that controls everything from another dimensional space, but Reinhard can still beat it in a fight.
Whether that's more or less impressive than fighting the sun, we will learn in time.

 

[Fezzih_007]

If this applies to all magic hax abilities, and not just the magic resistences shown by Ciel/those comparable to her, then again we have a situation where Ciel has 4D(?) resistance to everything Satella has, is twice as strong as her, and can easily kill her with soul hax, concept hax, immortality neg, etc. And Satella probably can't deal enough damage to actually wear her down faster than her regen.

That just sounds unfair to me personally.

Well, she still have a few incon like the lifting strenght, so she can crush Ciel, ragdoll her, or take one of her weapons, the intangibility, and the Danmaku, and can defeat her by incapacitation so is not complety unfair. Even trought Ciel is faster.

Also, Ciel don't start with her weapons right away, so she needs to see that most of her attacks are not working to bring out the big Guns, before Satella kills her.

Ok dam...i was gonna go for ciel but yeah count my vote for best girl Satella

Oh right, i forgot about you, ok sure.

Regulus ignores both time and space, so his should also be 4D

I din't know ignoring time and space makes you a high dimensional being, can you show me Scan that says that on the page?

 

[Zabazab]

I'm not sure how on board I am with the idea that Ciel & others with magic circuits just get automatic 4D resistance to all magic hax, even hax which they and those comparable to them have never displayed resistance to.

Well, she still have a few incon like the lifting strenght, so she can crush Ciel, ragdoll her, or take one of her weapons, the intangibility, and the Danmaku, and can defeat her by incapacitation so is not complety unfair. Even trought Ciel is faster.

Intangibility is a result of her magic too, if she resists all magic hax then it will not work. All of Satella's abilities are magic, as her Authority of Envy is unknown.

Regulus ignores both time and space, so his should also be 4D and since Reid can cut through it he should be able to cut through 4D conceptual hax too. He still is unable to cut through Satella

I have issues with this.

First, while Regulus' Lion Heart/Stillness of an Object's Time can be argued as 4D, it is not currently accepted as such here.

Second, Reid being unable to cut Satella is not stated anywhere, him being unable to kill her could be due to various reasons unrelated to a concept resistance, we don't know enough about the high tiers to say concrete things like this.

I generally disagree with using total mysteries of characters like Satella, Reid, etc. in vs matches anyway because we know so little.

 

[Fezzih_007]

I'm not sure how on board I am with the idea that Ciel & others with magic circuits just get automatic 4D resistance to all magic hax, even hax which they and those comparable to them have never displayed resistance to.

Well, you would need to debunking both the Shirou statement and the magic of nasuverse being 4D then. https://vsbattles.com/threads/question-regarding-4-d-nasuverse-hax.139140/ this thread here have the reason for being 4D.

 

[Zabazab]

I take no issue with it being 4D, I take issue with your suggestion of magic resistence being applied to all magic hax regardless of if they have feats of or scale to feats of resisting said hax.

If it is the case then Satella can't really do much and it'll be very one-sided I think.

 

[Fezzih_007]

I take no issue with it being 4D, I take issue with your suggestion of magic resistence being applied to all magic hax regardless of if they have feats of or scale to feats of resisting said hax.

If it is the case then Satella can't really do much and it'll be very one-sided I think.

Is not really one-sided but okay.
Anyway, i could make speed equal, but if i do Satella is the one winning here, since the the speed not being equal is the only reasons to why Ciel can even fight the Danmaku of 2000 hands.

 

[Zabazab]

What actually is the speed gap? It can't be that much since they are both FTL. And I don't think equalizing speed would help Satella much.

I think the power gap & regen matters more, Satella can surely still wound Ciel but I think the 2x difference and comparable speed means she can't damage her quickly enough or severely enough to overcome the regen.

I do disagree that Ciel would resist Shamak's dura neg, but if she does then I can't see a single wincon for Satella, it'd merely be a matter of time before Soul hax gets used.

 

[Fezzih_007]

What actually is the speed gap? It can't be that much since they are both FTL.

Above baseline exist you know, and is like:
FTL= Normal Ciel for tsukihime <Powered Ciel<Base Ciel for Melty blood<<Powered Ciel<<Powered Ciel for Actress again.

And I don't think equalizing speed would help Satella much.

Yeah, if you keep ignoring what i said, i can see that.
If the speed is equal, Ciel is just gonna be overwhelm by the Danmaku of 2000 hands that comes from all sides, and die to the superior lifting strenght of Satella.

I think the power gap & regen matters more, Satella can surely still wound Ciel but I think the 2x difference and comparable speed means she can't damage her quickly enough or severely enough to overcome the regen.

Targetting the brain don't exist now?

ut if she does then I can't see a single wincon for Satella, it'd merely be a matter of time before Soul hax gets used.

Well, she still have a few incon like the lifting strenght, so she can crush Ciel, ragdoll her, or take one of her weapons, and the Danmaku, and can defeat her by incapacitation so is not complety unfair.

Can you stop ignoring what i say then?

 

[Zabazab]

Well, she still have a few incon like the lifting strenght, so she can crush Ciel, ragdoll her, or take one of her weapons, the intangibility, and the Danmaku, and can defeat her by incapacitation so is not complety unfair. Even trought Ciel is faster.

Also, Ciel don't start with her weapons right away, so she needs to see that most of her attacks are not working to bring out the big Guns, before Satella kills her.

Then, since you've said that Ciel doesn't start with her weapons that would easily kill the Witch, she'd try to attack Satella and gets sucked into her shadowy mass on contact where she can no longer move due to Class G LS, and Satella enters her body via a wound like in Arc 4 to shred her insides into a red paste- destroying it beyond what her regen can handle.



If dura neg works i think Satella wins 8/10 times, and if it doesn't then I think she wins 6/10 times.



I imagine Ciel would body though if she started with her weapons.