The Unova Legends scaling has been bugging me for a hot minute (possible revision: 3-A -> 5-B, at LEAST 6-A)

[StrymULTRA]

That's not really true, in games when Megas are defeated they just fall over and get back in the ball.

And then they're showed in base iirc

Looking on-screen a spoon Mewtwo just blatantly has better showings against Zygarde than without.

Except that that's not how it works in manga. It's the product of its psychic powers as already explained, we don't give to psychic type mons "X Tier via Psychic", unless Mewtwo can create physic powers higher than its regular ones out from nothing

 

[JJSliderman]

They're not shown in base in the main-series.

Maybe it's not how it works but, it is demonstrated that Mewtwo with a spoon blocks a bloodlusted crunch from Zygarde, while Zygarde's attack hitting Mewtwo physically (while Mewtwo hadn't sustained any damage) instantly knocked Mewtwo out. Generally I think 1 of 3 options is best.

A: Downgrade Mewtwo's AP but keep his durability the same.

B: Downgrade Mewtwo's AP and dura and call it an outlier

C: Downgrade Mewtwo's physicals but keep the ratings with Mewtwo's spoon.

As it stands Mewtwo's natural AP and dura both being comparable to Zygarde makes little sense imo.

 

[StrymULTRA]

All the 3 nonsense for the reason I've already stated, and the counters were pretty much a product of argument from incredulity.

As it stands Mewtwo's natural AP and dura both being comparable to Zygarde makes little sense imo.

As confirmed even here.

 

[JJSliderman]

"Argument from Incredulity"

-Mewtwo never hurts Zygarde
-Mewtwo never forces Zygarde back
-Mewtwo is instantly knocked out upon taking a direct hit from Zygarde (when it had sustained no physical damage prior), when Zygarde is using his weaker offensive stat to attack with.
-None of Mega Mewtwo's other feats are really that close to Zygarde scaling
-It takes all of Mewtwo's power just to stop Zygarde from not hitting him

Mmhmm yeah scaling fine.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Mewtwo never hurts Zygarde

Irrelevant

Mewtwo never forces Zygarde back

Same here

Mewtwo is instantly knocked out upon taking a direct hit from Zygarde (when it had sustained no physical damage prior), when Zygarde is using his weaker offensive stat to attack with.

It blocking a physical attack from Zygarde is already enough tho

None of Mega Mewtwo's other feats are really that close to Zygarde scaling

It hasn't any anti feat against such

It takes all of Mewtwo's power just to stop Zygarde from not hitting him

That's a thing already above Base Necrozma

Mmhmm yeah scaling fine.

Yep

 

[JJSliderman]

I'm pretty sure that in order for a character's AP to scale they kind of have to have the striking power to back it up. Mewtwo has never displayed that in a battle with Zygarde. The fact it never tries to battle Zygarde again I think is good justification that Mewtwo should not scale.

Mewtwo's physicals compared to Zygarde are not favorable, the spoon is honestly more impressive in terms of its showings. And combined with how similar characters did not receive scaling when they met the same criteria Mewtwo did, I honestly don't see why Mewtwo should get this rating, especially when Mewtwo consistently struggles against planet level threats.

 

[StrymULTRA]

You clearly don't get how downscaling works, if it displays a comparable level of power it should go.

Mewtwo consistently struggles against planet level threats.

I'd like to know against who which don't involve its base form.

 

[JJSliderman]

Downscaling is fine to a certain extent, but not if you literally can't harm or force back the character you're downscaling from in any way.

Mega Mewtwo Y struggled to restrain the Tree of Life from moving into the sun even when it had help from hundreds of other Pokemon.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Downscaling is fine to a certain extent, but not if you literally can't harm or force back the character you're downscaling from in any way.

Again, nothing said that M2X can't harm Zygarde, it blocking one of its attacks with mere strength is enough to prove that they're not completely different in gap.

Mega Mewtwo Y struggled to restrain the Tree of Life from moving into the sun even when it had help from hundreds of other Pokemon.

Ah yeah, that thing caused from Dark Matter and where Mega Rayquaza and Deoxys are portrayed as equal and Arceus is below Yveltal. Sure thing.

 

[JJSliderman]

Except it being said that M2X's power was in a different league to Zygarde, Mewtwo getting one-shot by a Dragon Pulse, Mewtwo never actually harming Zygarde (and you criticize me for using headcanon).

 

[StrymULTRA]

Except it being said that M2X's power was in a different league to Zygarde

Difference is strength isn't different league

Mewtwo getting one-shot by a Dragon Pulse,

And recovering shortly after without reverting to base.

Mewtwo never actually harming Zygarde

Not necessarily to downscale again

 

[Joycap]

OK, just to prove I'm not being biased:

That just seems like nitpicking, especially when the "fully defeated" Lucario recovered a hell of a lot quicker than Mewtwo did.

Visual evidence of the Lucario in question (evidence that it was ever Mega, I mean)?

Saying Mewtwo kept his mega state the entire time it was knocked out requires about as much headcanon as saying it reverted.

Am I reading this wrong?

Now, onto the meat and potatoes...

In Pokémon when a Mega Evolution is fully defeated reverts to base, which didn't happen to Mewtwo, meaning that it didn't fully one-shot.

What is Ash Gren vs Zard X? Do you not remember how elongated that fight was before either of them reverted? Just a thought.

Zygarde wasn't defeated, it retreated from itself iirc.

Your proof of this, with screenshots?

Plus, struggling means shit in all honestly, managing to even take few hits from a dude who managed to fight against Ultra Necrozma is a better feat than being just baseline like base Necrozma.

A few questions:

• Was this even the same Zygarde 50% that fought Ultra Necrozma?
• What hits were landed onto Zygarde by M2X (or Y)? Because I think what JJ is getting at is if no attacks harmed Zy50% significantly, then only dura scales if this is going back the other way.
• Did you forget that downscaling is an option that has been posited knowing the range of 3-C being thrown around (one that I'm willing to break bread with)?

Plus, I'd remind that even in games when a mega Pokémon gets fully defeated it revers to base, so why is Mewtwo magically an exception here

There is a chasm of difference between reverting signifying a complete blowout, and characters knowing that the state of parties involved results in a seemingly unwinnable scenario if the panel most put forward shows M2X visually struggling to get any attacks in. This is very much the latter, hence my request for you to post screens of Zy50%'s defeat/retreat.

Bullshit, I already explained why the spoon isn't a power boost

For the last sodding time, NO ONE is saying that the spoon was an amp. No one, that is a strawman. Go search for it, you can't find clear examples. If you cite me, I already said that I somewhat agreed with the spoon being (up to given points) a physical object. If anything, M2X was amping the spoon, not the other way around, yet it was not enough to offensively retaliate in any practical capacity (also did we just forget the supposed 'injury' was a thing?).

Except that that's not how it works in manga. It's the product of its psychic powers as already explained, we don't give to psychic type mons "X Tier via Psychic", unless Mewtwo can create physic powers higher than its regular ones out from nothing

Wait, there was a specific move cited coming out of Mewtwo? I sure as hell must have missed it.
No one was saying he was specifically using Psychic, he was using the concept of Psychic powers, which could entail any of said type's movepool (unless that is what you meant to say).

Irrelevant

Same here

Translation:

It blocking a physical attack from Zygarde is already enough tho

Then how do you personally scale durability if this is not it?

It hasn't any anti feat against such

Well if you ask me, this is as irrelevant as you're citing, and I've held that belief ever since Aura Break got thrown out the window.

That's a thing already above Base Necrozma

Question: Has Lysandre ever acknowledged Necrozma in, like... ANY medium? Or is this some kind of "Ghetsis will never acknowledge Galaxy busting" kind of thing?

Semi-unrelated: I should note that I'm willing to retract my request to scrub wording of 'world destroying powers' on Zekrom and Reshiram's pages, because of the potential of translation hiccups, when the World in Japanese translates to 'Sekai', which can also translate as 'Society' or 'The Universe'. Learned that today, actually.

I'd like to know against who which don't involve its base form.

I seem to recall there were 4 other (non-shiny) Genesect scaled to Planet Level, that M2Y in the movie went up against. Where did that go, exactly?

Again, nothing said that M2X can't harm Zygarde, it blocking one of its attacks with mere strength is enough to prove that they're not completely different in gap.

Nothing was displaying that it could in it's physical state, though, nor could it find a position to do so. Shoe is on the other foot, lad.

Ah yeah, that thing caused from Dark Matter and where Mega Rayquaza and Deoxys are portrayed as equal and Arceus is below Yveltal. Sure thing.

When the most that Dark Matter did in that instance was pop a Sun? We bring it up because it's an inconsistency between a 2-A Arceus, 2+ supposed Galaxy busters, and Deoxys which doesn't scale the same way for some reason (and should scale if the Injured M2X/Y scaling we've been arguing the toss about holds any water) as well as numerous adds on top of that.

 

[JJSliderman]

If all you need to downscale is just holding back one attack from an opponent, I'm pretty sure many other characters would be downscaling from sources far above what they're currently rated as. Point is, Mewtwo's performance against Zygarde tier threats is just not really consistent, and in its one showing, is not really done in a way that would warrant Mewtwo's AP scaling. Speed, yes. Durability, maybe (but probably not, given Sonic isn't 2-C in base for surviving attacks from the Time Eater).

For the Lucario, the video for it recovering after battle is in the scans from earlier. Also, for Mewtwo reverting after being knocked out, I'm referring to the scan after the Dragon Pulse where Lysandre refers to it as knocked out. It was argued that because Mewtwo is still Mega in this specific scan that it stayed Mega the whole time, when that's also headcanon.

Actually can I just say how bad the current speed scaling is. Base Mewtwo MFTL+ is scaled to Deoxys, who scales to Mega Rayquaza, who scales back to Mega Mewtwo, effectively making Base Mewtwo~Mega Mewtwo in speed.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Visual evidence of the Lucario in question (evidence that it was ever Mega, I mean)?

Is in the imgur gallery.

What is Ash Gren vs Zard X? Do you not remember how elongated that fight was before either of them reverted? Just a thought.

Ash Gren isn't a Mega in the 1st place, and even lost, futile argument.

Then how do you personally scale durability if this is not it?

There aren't Pokémon characters beside human ones who have durability >>>>AP, especially when Mega Evo boosts ALL the stats.

I seem to recall there were 4 other (non-shiny) Genesect scaled to Planet Level, that M2Y in the movie went up against. Where did that go, exactly?

As only Shiny one scales as it's their leader and such legimately stronger.

Nothing was displaying that it could in it's physical state, though, nor could it find a position to do so. Shoe is on the other foot, lad

????????

When the most that Dark Matter did in that instance was pop a Sun? We bring it up because it's an inconsistency between a 2-A Arceus, 2+ supposed Galaxy busters, and Deoxys which doesn't scale the same way for some reason (and should scale if the Injured M2X/Y scaling we've been arguing the toss about holds any water) as well as numerous adds on top of that.

You're literally confirming that PMD GTI shouldn't be used for scaling because of this

If all you need to downscale is just holding back one attack from an opponent, I'm pretty sure many other characters would be downscaling from sources far above what they're currently rated as. Point is, Mewtwo's performance against Zygarde tier threats is just not really consistent, and in its one showing, is not really done in a way that would warrant Mewtwo's AP scaling. Speed, yes. Durability, maybe (but probably not, given Sonic isn't 2-C in base for surviving attacks from the Time Eater).

Pokémon ≠ Sonic for one.

Plus, Mewtwo hasn't really any anti feat against such feat that isn't from an inconsistent source.

 

[JJSliderman]

Him having no anti-feats doesn't matter when Mewtwo just does not physically stack up to Zygarde in this appearance.
Regardless, if other characters with showings on the level of Mewtwo's performance against Zygarde don't get scaling to those higher tier entities, I don't see why Mewtwo would. Still has not really been a counter to that.

 

[StrymULTRA]

For the Lucario, the video for it recovering after battle is in the scans from earlier. Also, for Mewtwo reverting after being knocked out, I'm referring to the scan after the Dragon Pulse where Lysandre refers to it as knocked out. It was argued that because Mewtwo is still Mega in this specific scan that it stayed Mega the whole time, when that's also headcanon.

I have the manga downloaded and literally nothing implies what are you saying.

Actually can I just say how bad the current speed scaling is. Base Mewtwo MFTL+ is scaled to Deoxys, who scales to Mega Rayquaza, who scales back to Mega Mewtwo, effectively making Base Mewtwo~Mega Mewtwo in speed.

That's for another thread, although I agree that base Rayquaza, Deoxys and base Mewtwo should be just Rel+.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Him having no anti-feats doesn't matter when Mewtwo just does not physically stack up to Zygarde in this appearance.
Regardless, if other characters with showings on the level of Mewtwo's performance against Zygarde don't get scaling to those higher tier entities, I don't see why Mewtwo would. Still has not really been a counter to that.

It physically can counter Zygarde... Which wouldn't be possible if Mewtwo wasn't Tier 3.

Plus, only guy who fought Mega Mewtwo was Shiny Genesect, who doesn't have feats against that on its own.

 

[JJSliderman]

Nothing implies Mewtwo stayed as Mega either.

Anyway I don't really feel like discussing this anymore, but I will say that Mewtwo continuing to scale to Zygarde seems hypocritical to what the site has done previously, and thus should be discarded AP-wise. Especially when lower tier characters blocking hits from higher tiers as a one-off is something very common in fiction, and something that can easily be classed as an outlier, in the same vein Starkiller fighting Palpatine in Force Unleashed is considered an outlier, or Mario fighting Dreamy Bowser is considered an outlier, or Smash characters taking hits from Galeem and Tabuu is considered an outlier, etc., etc.

 

[y3p_owo]

or Smash characters taking hits from Galeem and Tabuu is considered an outlier, etc., etc.

Because that's fighting game crossover scaling.

 

[JJSliderman]

Because that's crossover scaling.

I meant for the characters who have profiles based on their Smash appearancess.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Nothing implies Mewtwo stayed as Mega either.

Occam's Razor says that it remained Mega. Again, burden of proof is on you to prove that it reverted when nothing in the chapters said such.

Anyway I don't really feel like discussing this anymore, but I will say that Mewtwo continuing to scale to Zygarde seems hypocritical to what the site has done previously, and thus should be discarded AP-wise. Especially when lower tier characters blocking hits from higher tiers as a one-off is something very common in fiction, and something that can easily be classed as an outlier, in the same vein Starkiller fighting Palpatine in Force Unleashed is considered an outlier, or Mario fighting Dreamy Bowser is considered an outlier, or Smash characters taking hits from Galeem and Tabuu is considered an outlier, etc., etc.

Well, I've called @ProfessorKukui4Life for the matter, I'm tired as well. He'll explain things in much probably a better way than me.

 

[Joycap]

Ash Gren isn't a Mega in the 1st place, and even lost, futile argument.

For narrative purposes in the context of the Anime, the power boost in Ash Gren state was compared to a Mega Evolution multiple times. And my point (if you were paying attention) was that reversion comes from physical defeat, not necessarily being "one shot" (I.E: revise your wording, mate).

There aren't Pokémon characters beside human ones who have durability >>>>AP,

Oh ok, I guess To Aru fans must have been ******* hallucinating then when you described their characters as "glass cannons". Any particular reason dura =/= AP if this isn't what you meant to say?

especially when Mega Evo boosts ALL the stats.

Stats are irrelevant. Should I remind you that Miltank once outpaced Pidgeot, whose dex entires put it at Mach 5?

You're literally confirming that PMD GTI shouldn't be used for scaling because of this

Then why are either of us doing it?

 

[StrymULTRA]

For narrative purposes in the context of the Anime, the power boost in Ash Gren state was compared to a Mega Evolution multiple times. And my point (if you were paying attention) was that reversion comes from physical defeat, not necessarily being "one shot" (I.E: revise your wording, mate).

And thus proves my point since Mewtwo wasn't completely defeated then.

Oh ok, I guess To Aru fans must have been ******* hallucinating then when you described their characters as "glass cannons". Any particular reason dura =/= AP if this isn't what you meant to say?

Pokémon ≠ To Aru. Different verses, different way to work in stats.

Stats are irrelevant. Should I remind you that Miltank once outpaced Pidgeot, whose dex entires put it at Mach 5?

I'm talking about Mega boosts. Plus what's your point here anyway.

Then why are either of us doing it?

I never used it, you did.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Guys, don't take any offense by this when I say it, but literally shut up about the Mewtwo crap.

It's been brought up, discussed, and debunked a thousand times over. I'm at work ATM and if I have to reiterate why the scaling to Zygarde is absolutely fine again, then I will.

Mewtwo isn't getting downgraded and there's no means to do that. Period.

 

[JJSliderman]

Then I just consider Mewtwo scaling hypocritical, given Doflamingo was downgraded for the same reason.

But wtvr.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Whataboutism isn't an argument and I highly doubt the context is the same or else he wouldn't have been downgraded.

Either way, using another verse as an argument against this ain't standing.

 

[JJSliderman]

It is exactly the same, I looked.

 

[Mageman460]

Let's say, Mewtwo doesn't scale to Zygarde 50% AP, but does durability wise. Well Shiny Genesect harmed Mega Mewtwo, and Mega Mewtwo harmed Shiny Genesect. Viola, Mega Mewtwo scales to 3-C/High 3-A. Therefore Mega Mewtwo gets AP justification of "Can harm those who can harm it." Problem solved.

 

[Joycap]

And thus proves my point since Mewtwo wasn't completely defeated then.

"Huston, we are setting land speed records for the fastest goal post relocation, over"

Also, do you mind handing over the Manga download that you supposedly have? You've still failed to supply evidence of Zygarde's retreat in order for me to believe you.

I'm talking about Mega boosts.

Well if you mean that in a shonen multiplier kind of way, may I ask how much you think that multiplier is?

I never used it, you did.

Let me put this another way - the wiki did:

Guys, don't take any offense by this when I say it, but literally shut up about the Mewtwo crap.

It's been brought up, discussed, and debunked a thousand times over. I'm at work ATM and if I have to reiterate why the scaling to Zygarde is absolutely fine again, then I will.

Mewtwo isn't getting downgraded and there's no means to do that. Period.

Hand me one thread Scaling Mewtwo. I'll wait.

Whataboutism isn't an argument and I highly doubt the context is the same or else he wouldn't have been downgraded.

Either way, using another verse as an argument against this ain't standing.

Maybe read the thread in quesiton JJ refers to before we start holding different verses to different standards.

 

[JJSliderman]

Let's say, Mewtwo doesn't scale to Zygarde 50% AP, but does durability wise. Well Shiny Genesect harmed Mega Mewtwo, and Mega Mewtwo harmed Shiny Genesect. Viola, Mega Mewtwo scales to 3-C/High 3-A. Therefore Mega Mewtwo gets AP justification of "Can harm those who can harm it." Problem solved.

Genesect thing doesn't work because Mewtwo was one-shot as soon as it was hit physically by Zygarde, whereas Genesect didn't do that. It's like if every Sonic character is Low 2-C because they can hurt Sonic who took hits from Void and Time Eater and didn't die, who are Low 2-C.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Also, do you mind handing over the Manga download that you supposedly have? You've still failed to supply evidence of Zygarde's retreat in order for me to believe you.

Remember the new Ultra Beasts AP description I've wrote? There is.

Hand me one thread Scaling Mewtwo. I'll wait.

Here

Let me put this another way - the wiki did:

Yeah, nuke it then.

Mewtwo was one-shot as soon as it was hit physically by Zygarde

Damn, you were debunked over and over over this and still insist?

Anyway, I'd wait Kukui before replying anymore, since this is just prolonging the agony.

 

[Mageman460]

Genesect thing doesn't work because Mewtwo was one-shot as soon as it was hit physically by Zygarde, whereas Genesect didn't do that. It's like if every Sonic character is Low 2-C because they can hurt Sonic who took hits from Void, who is Low 2-C.

You flat out proposed that Mega Mewtwo scales via durability only ... and now you are rejecting that too. Mega Mewtwo flat out blocks an attack from Zygarde as has been shown. Lysandre himself even says as much that he stopped the attack through power and he will be able to stop his attacks through said power.

 

[JJSliderman]

He blocks an attack with his spoon, and just barely. When he was hit normally he was helpless.

 

[StrymULTRA]

He blocks an attack with his spoon, and just barely. When he was hit normally he was helpless.

Thanks for the laugh my man, when I said all the time that the spoon is = to Mewtwo's power since is a direct product of it.

 

[JJSliderman]

Sure, go ahead and do this """"legitimate"""" scaling if you want. I guess it's not worth it trying to argue even when it makes no sense.

 

[StrymULTRA]

You flat out proposed that Mega Mewtwo scales via durability only ... and now you are rejecting that too. Mega Mewtwo flat out blocks an attack from Zygarde as has been shown. Lysandre himself even says as much that he stopped the attack through power and he will be able to stop his attacks through said power.

But even just durability is dumb when Mega Evolution is portrayed as a boost to all the stats lol

 

[Mageman460]

Ah yes, when Mewtwo was hit point blank by Dragon Pulse. Did you see who else was hit. Blaine ... the person who Mewtwo shares feelings with. Feelings such as pain. Not to mention the spoon is made from Mewtwo's psychic powers, which should actually be stronger in M2Y form. So yes, Meg Mewtwo scales to Zygarde's AP.

 

[Mageman460]

But even just durability is dumb when Mega Evolution is portrayed as a boost to all the stats lol

Oh yeah, I agree I was proposing an alternate solution. I completely agree Mega Mewtwo scales to Zygarde.

 

[JJSliderman]

I still don't, but whatever.

 

[Joycap]

Remember the new Ultra Beasts AP description I've wrote? There is.

No I mean in the XY Manga, not the SM Manga

Thanks for the laugh my man, when I said all the time that the spoon is = to Mewtwo's power since is a direct product of it.

Yeah, a direct "higher power" that he would have used and not the spoon had he not wanted to get slapped.