The Unova Legends scaling has been bugging me for a hot minute (possible revision: 3-A -> 5-B, at LEAST 6-A)

[XitSign]

Unchanged, same tier as Ultra Necrozma but downscaled.

50% < Ultra Necrozma

100% ~= Ultra Necrozma

That's how we have it, the scans outright show it, I see no issue here.

 

[Joycap]

Unchanged, same tier as Ultra Necrozma but downscaled.

50% < Ultra Necrozma

100% ~= Ultra Necrozma

That's how we have it, the scans outright show it, I see no issue here.

My main issue at the moment is the range that we're using (specifically the subranks) We're using a 3-4 subrank range (3-C - High 3-A) for all 3 (or 4) Necrozma forms, and the same for 50% and 100% Zygarde. For what you've said to be true, 50%Garde should be at least a subrank lower than Ultra Necrozma in order to quantify the difference. That's why I'm asking for painstaking specifics, otherwise it's (or at least is the same as) an outlier for 50% Zygarde.

For our sakes, which specific scan are you referring to when it comes to Zygarde?

 

[Arceus0x]

How hard is it to understand that if you punch someone and it confirmed that you hurt them then it means that you can damage them?

They both scale. Period.

It was not switching forms whilst fighting Solgaleo and it had to first restrict either one of them to fuse.

 

[XitSign]

I'm starting to get the issue? My apologies but you've been incredibly difficult the understand in a lot of this, but I think it's clicking what you're having the biggest issue with.

50%'s downscale is just completly unquantifiable. It's lower and that's just the end of it. We can't determine the difference so it is 3-C to High 3-A because it still needs to be in the ballpark to have even 'wittle' in combat.

And we are not using 3-4 tiers, we're using 2. The feats involved for Ultra Necrozma are either 3-C OR High 3-A depending on the interpretation of Pokemon's cosmology. 3-B and 3-A are not factors.

All the pokemon involved scale to those two because to even cause small amounts of harm, you need to be close to them in power, especially considering the huge scope of the tiers (High 3-A is literally infinite after all). They can tier the same and still lose to one another, but still put up a fight. It's that simple.

And the scans in our justification, you can clearly see the fight and the characters making observations about it:

At least Galaxy level, likely High Universe level (Managed to send Ultra Necrozma flying and was whittling it down. Still very much weaker than Ultra Necrozma though)

 

[Joycap]

How hard is it to understand that if you punch someone and it confirmed that you hurt them then it means that you can damage them?

They both scale. Period.

It was not switching forms whilst fighting Solgaleo and it had to first restrict either one of them to fuse.

Yes, that's just scaling 101, I understand that much. But what I'm saying about betrayal of author intent is that it doesn't make sense for 100% form to be such a small amp from 50%, when said Complete form constitutes it's use. You're obviously not going to say hand on heard that 50% and 100% are equally as powerful (which is the implication scaling this way), are you?

And what I don't think I'm getting across is that Solgaleo / Lunala did not want to tag each other in that fight, which is what made firing off attacks difficult without injuring the other.

With that, which lane are we actually in, the Anime, or the Manga? Going by the Anime, we'd argue that Solgaleo/Lunala got stomped by Necrozma base form because of the difficult circumstances, a contradiction from the fact that both Solgaleo and Lunala's light gave Necrozma access to a form that scales higher (Ultra Burst) for our purposes.

What I'm lacking from the Manga panels currently cited is context. Were fighting positions communicated at all in the Manga when Solgaleo and Lunala were knocked down? Or was there anything else at play other than 'lol sun and moon god washed, cell snake to the rescue'?

50%'s downscale is just completely unquantifiable. It's lower and that's just the end of it. We can't determine the difference so it is 3-C to High 3-A because it still needs to be in the ballpark to have even 'wittle' in combat.

And we are not using 3-4 tiers, we're using 2. The feats involved for Ultra Necrozma are either 3-C OR High 3-A depending on the interpretation of Pokemon's cosmology. 3-B and 3-A are not factors.

Unless you're saying that Zygarde 50% IS 3-C, and Ultra Necrozma is High 3-A, I think the idea that 3-B / low(er) 3-A scaling is inapplicable is just gating ourselves off from potential answers for no reason. In fact, the idea that the proportions that make up downscaling this way is actually rather disingenuous, because you concede by omission that there is a difference there. For that same reason, it's a positive claim that you are making that the levels that make up 3-B / low(er) 3-A need not apply, and alas, the burden of proof falls on you.

All the pokemon involved scale to those two because to even cause small amounts of harm, you need to be close to them in power, especially considering the huge scope of the tiers (High 3-A is literally infinite after all). They can tier the same and still lose to one another, but still put up a fight. It's that simple.

"High 3-A is literally infinite" sorry, I don't agree with that. If it were "literally infinite", there would be no tier(s) 1 or 2, we'd just skip straight to Boundless at that point (Tier 0). There would be no distinction between creating an observable universe, or creating several with more abstract concepts that justify higher levels of scaling.

And the scans in our justification, you can clearly see the fight and the characters making observations about it:

At least Galaxy level, likely High Universe level (Managed to send Ultra Necrozma flying and was whittling it down. Still very much weaker than Ultra Necrozma though)

I'm well aware of that shot, I cited the same thing in the OP because it was one of the things on Zygarde's page. It's what made me cite my issues with that scaling to begin with.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Why is this so hard to understand that 100% Zygarde is twice as strong as his 50% Form? It's literally that simple.

 

[Joycap]

Why is this so hard to understand that 100% Zygarde is twice as strong as his 50% Form? It's literally that simple.

That goes both ways. How do you put a 2x multiplier to something that is claimed to be just shy of "literally infinite", and say that the results can't be quantified when you needed a minimum base to start?

If 50% Garde was literally half of Galaxy, or 10% was calced with similar proportions in mind (i.e: 1/10th Galaxy / min base of tier 3), we would have done so by now. Somehow I doubt it's that simple.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I don't think you're understanding why they have this Tier in the first place. The 3-C, possibly High 3-A Rating comes from the exact same Feat. It only has two different ratings because it depends on how you see the Cosmology of Ultra Space.

 

[XitSign]

...Yeah I take it back, I thought I understood you but now I'm sure I don't.

There's a ton to unpack here and I don't know where to start, but for one High 3-A is infinite in a 3D sense. That's...that's just not up fir debate, that's what the tier means.

Tier 2, 1, and 0 are beyond that first level of infinite energy, with more complex dinensions, but 'infinity' starts at 3.

 

[Joycap]

I don't think you're understanding why they have this Tier in the first place. The 3-C, possibly High 3-A Rating comes from the exact same Feat. It only has two different ratings because it depends on how you see the Cosmology of Ultra Space.

Right, ok, you should have made that clear earlier. And are we positive there are zero interpretations of said feat that fall under 3-A/3-B? Was this discussed in a thread I wasn't around for?

...Yeah I take it back, I thought I understood you but now I'm sure I don't.

There's a ton to unpack here and I don't know where to start, but for one High 3-A is infinite in a 3D sense. That's...that's just not up fir debate, that's what the tier means.

Tier 2, 1, and 0 are beyond that first level of infinite energy, with more complex dinensions, but 'infinity' starts at 3.

I'm not sure I really care if it is infinite in a 3D sense (unless you mean omnidirectional, in which case so are moons. It means nothing), if you're saying that there's downscaling potential from High 3-A back down to 3-C, if you're saying there's no point quantify distinction between the two.

But if you want me to move onto 'how can we reword the pages to strengthen evidence?', I won't stop you.

 

[Arceus0x]

Uuugh let me explain cause these guys are lazing around.

There's a certain problem in our pokemon cosmology and that is the fact that we aren't 100% sure about the size of the pokemon multiverse. If it is a non-infinite universe then we can only use a 3-A distance which means the feat of absorbing all light in it is 3-C. However if there's infinite universes in the pokemon multiverse that would mean that the universe holds infinite portals (it contains wormholes to all universes) and it also seems that necrozma stole light from those universes as well (if i understood the point made by kukui in the high 3-A revision thread correctly).
Thus, dependant on which info is right, we have two different, unrelated ratings.
If the Multiverse is 2-B then it is 3-C, if the multiverse is 2-A then it is high 3-A.

Infinity isn't a singular number, you can't reach it by counting. It can expand freely.
It is possible to downscale as infinity/any number is still infinity as to get infinity you need to multiply whatever number you have by infinity. So yes, high 3-A downscaling is possible, especially considering, if i remember correctly, it isn't simply baseline high 3-A in this case.

 

[Arceus0x]

So no, if we don't know that it is infinite, we can only use the size of the visible universe for the feat, thus 3-C. If it is infinite, it'll always be high 3-A.

 

[XitSign]

I'm not sure I really care if it is infinite in a 3D sense (unless you mean omnidirectional, in which case so are moons. It means nothing), if you're saying that there's downscaling potential from High 3-A back down to 3-C, if you're saying there's no point quantify distinction between the two.

But if you want me to move onto 'how can we reword the pages to strengthen evidence?', I won't stop you.

Not to ride the point, but do you know what the tiers mean? Because what they qualify is massively important, and kinda relevant to explaining the problem here. And it sounds like you don't...

High 3-A is infinite in a 3D sense, there is no downscaling to 3-C from there, that's impossible. A 3-C character just would never be able to physically harm a High 3-A in the first place.

We're not downscaling from High 3-A to 3-A, 3-B, or 3-C. Ultra Necrozma scales to EITHER 3-C or High 3-A depending on the interpretation of the cosmology. That's their tier. Everyone scales to those two tiers so that they can compete.

Tiers are huge. Sometimes infinite, when you downscale you can absolutely still be the same tier and still be weaker. This is why 50% can be the same tier as 100% yet outclassed

 

[Joycap]

Uuugh let me explain cause these guys are lazing around.

There's a certain problem in our pokemon cosmology and that is the fact that we aren't 100% sure about the size of the pokemon multiverse. If it is a non-infinite universe then we can only use a 3-A distance which means the feat of absorbing all light in it is 3-C. However if there's infinite universes in the pokemon multiverse that would mean that the universe holds infinite portals (it contains wormholes to all universes) and it also seems that necrozma stole light from those universes as well (if i understood the point made by kukui in the high 3-A revision thread correctly).
Thus, dependant on which info is right, we have two different, unrelated ratings.
If the Multiverse is 2-B then it is 3-C, if the multiverse is 2-A then it is high 3-A.

Infinity isn't a singular number, you can't reach it by counting. It can expand freely.
It is possible to downscale as infinity/any number is still infinity as to get infinity you need to multiply whatever number you have by infinity. So yes, high 3-A downscaling is possible, especially considering, if i remember correctly, it isn't simply baseline high 3-A in this case.

So no, if we don't know that it is infinite, we can only use the size of the visible universe for the feat, thus 3-C. If it is infinite, it'll always be high 3-A.

Right, a few questions then:

If the cosmology of the Pokemon Universe is either of these, then how come the Sinnoh Legends are casually tier 2? Are we saying tearing holes in dimensions or decomposing space-time the only pre-requisite to be tier 2 in this instance? Or are we going with the basic premise that 'if you can create a certain amount, it's reasonable to assume you can destroy higher amounts because creation energy > destruction energy'?

Also, isn't Guzzlord's domain an alternate timeline Hau'Oli City destroyed when the Tapus abandoned Alola? Isn't that proof of parallel universes in a potentially alternate timeline? Does that say anything?

Finally, are you trying to imply that a singular observable universe can be any size (hence, the debate over infinity) but tiers 1 and 2 pertain to multiversal because the existence of other universes is irrelevant to a given point of reference?

Not to ride the point, but do you know what the tiers mean? Because what they qualify is massively important, and kinda relevant to explaining the problem here. And it sounds like you don't...

(See above), yes I do know what tiers mean. I'm just trying to figure out what the differences between the highest end of 3-A, and what we think that entails in comparison to 1st/2nd tiers (hence what I bought up about the feats performed by Dialga/Palkia, those being lords of time and space).

High 3-A is infinite in a 3D sense, there is no downscaling to 3-C from there, that's impossible. A 3-C character just would never be able to physically harm a High 3-A in the first place.

It is possible to downscale as infinity/any number is still infinity as to get infinity you need to multiply whatever number you have by infinity. So yes, high 3-A downscaling is possible, especially considering, if i remember correctly, it isn't simply baseline high 3-A in this case.

We're not downscaling from High 3-A to 3-A, 3-B, or 3-C. Ultra Necrozma scales to EITHER 3-C or High 3-A depending on the interpretation of the cosmology. That's their tier. Everyone scales to those two tiers so that they can compete.
Tiers are huge. Sometimes infinite, when you downscale you can absolutely still be the same tier and still be weaker. This is why 50% can be the same tier as 100% yet outclassed

And that's half my problem. When you're sticking both Zygarde 50% and Ultra Necrozma in the same sub tier (lowball to 3-C for this specific line)... how do I word this?
You're not communicating to people the 'either/or' when Complete Zygarde goes to surpass both of them. Make it more apparent then "well, they're stuck with the same number, guess they're both no different despite the intent of devs to make these unique entities".

And I need to reiterate, it's not Complete Zygarde or Ultra Necrozma I have an issue with, it's 50% Zygarde and Base Necrozma. I know it seems like I'm asking for a complete overhaul here, but I think the best way of going about this is to say "if it's less or more than (insert subrank), communicate that by saying 'low 3-C', or 'low 3-B' or 'high 3-B'" -and so on and so forth. It'd communicate the discrepancy a lot better.

 

[Arceus0x]

I'll reply to you later fully. You need to read the tiering system.

Palkia and Dialga encompass time and space across a 2-B/2-A multiverse. The pokemon we see are just the avatars. Giratina is equal to them and Arceus encompasses the entire multiverse as a whole. They also casually created and destroyed timelines.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Yeah why does Ray get the scaling but Deoxys doesn't despite providing the 1/3rd of the effort needed for the SMD feat with two Megas? I don't quite understand that personally.

 

[Arceus0x]

Baseline 3-A is the observable universe. There's only one size for the observable universe. However the whole universe can be way bigger than what we see all the way til infinity.

Low 2-C is a timeline. Aka you destroy the universe across past and future. A timeline is 4-Dimensional. This is because there is an uncountably infinite amount of 3-A snapshots and we use a scientific theory which supports the 4-Dimensionality.

So low 2-C is uncountably infinitely bigger than 3-A and high 3-A.

The difference between uncountable infinity and normal infinity is this.

Infinity is
1,2,3,4...∞
Uncountable infinity is
0.000(infinite zeroes)1, 0.0(infinite zeroes)2, 0.000(infinite zeroes)3 ect. until we reach 1. Then it goes on the same way.

It is uncountable because it would take infinite time to count to infinity but in uncountable infinity it would take you an infinite amount of time to count to 1.

2-C, 2-B, 2-A and more is just that but more universes and the unquantifiable distance between them. Tier 1 is too complex for me to properly explain to you rn.

 

[Joycap]

I'll reply to you later fully. You need to read the tiering system.

Palkia and Dialga encompass time and space across a 2-B/2-A multiverse. The pokemon we see are just the avatars. Giratina is equal to them and Arceus encompasses the entire multiverse as a whole. They also casually created and destroyed timelines.

And by the sounds of just that, I'd say that the verse is non-infinite because just by that description, Palkia and Dialga are not to be interpreted as 'infinite' beings. They represent the three states of matter, to wit Ultra Space is composed of a separate thing entirely (Beast Boost is an actual 'thing' in the post game of Sun and Moon):

(Timestamped)


Because the problem with this transitional scaling from High 3-A to tier 2 and onward (in our case) is that you end up justifying shit like this:

(I means infinite)

But hey, the 3 smaller universes are still 'infinite', right?

 

[Arceus0x]

3-C and 3-B both have a great distance between baseline and the next tier. Basically, it's not just one number.

The difference between baseline 3-C and baseline 3-B is over 900x alone (if i remember correctly) so you can have lower AP and stay 3-C and no, it doesn't need low 3-C or high 3-C.

Ill reply to your message in a bit

 

[Arceus0x]

And by the sounds of just that, I'd say that the verse is non-infinite because just by that description, Palkia and Dialga are not to be interpreted as 'infinite' beings. They represent the three states of matter, to wit Ultra Space is composed of a separate thing entirely (Beast Boost is an actual 'thing' in the post game of Sun and Moon):

(Timestamped)


Because the problem with this transitional scaling from High 3-A to tier 2 and onward (in our case) is that you end up justifying shit like this:

(I means infinite)

But hey, the 3 smaller universes are still 'infinite', right?

No. That's absolutely not how it works. Like absolutely not.

Did you not read what i wrote?

 

[Arceus0x]

If high 3-A is O
Then low 2-C is
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO... (Uncountably infinite amount of Os for every infinith of a second passed in past and future)

 

[Arceus0x]

2-C is at the very least two low 2-C and an unquanitifable distance between the two which is considered to be larger than low 2-C by an unquanitifable margin (thus if a low 2-C becomes 2x more powerful he'll just be low 2-C but 2x above baseline)

 

[Joycap]

No. That's absolutely not how it works. Like absolutely not.

Did you not read what i wrote?

I deadass hit enter the second you posted the extension.

But yeah, if you're saying that 2-C+ is a 'timeline', then that means that your verse decision in question is not infinite, because you're saying that 3-C (lower than infinite 3D) has quantifiable candidates that interact with that timeline (like the Guzzlord parallel domain I mentioned earlier)

 

[Arceus0x]

Guzzlord has no domain. He just lives in a parallel dimension

 

[XitSign]

Really cute with the Curb Your Enthusiasm, be a shame if me and Arceus said two things that were true and we weren't conflicting each other...

I said you can not downscale TO 3-C from High 3-A, because High 3-A is an infinite 3D amount of energy. You can not remove any amount of energy from 'infinite' and get anything that isn't also infinite. So a character that's weaker than a High 3-A character but can still be on their level MUST be High 3-A.

A character CAN downscale from High 3-A...They'll just be a lower High 3-A. Which is what Arceus said, these two things do not conflict.

And 3-C is a huge tier, almost 800x in scope. If you're weaker than someone in that tier, but still comparable? You're almost certainly 3-C, but lower.

I'm genuinely convinced you do not actually understand the tiering system at this point, because you're getting key basics wrong here...

 

[XitSign]

I deadass hit enter the second you posted the extension.

But yeah, if you're saying that 2-C+ is a 'timeline', then that means that your verse decision in question is not infinite, because you're saying that 3-C (lower than infinite 3D) has quantifiable candidates that interact with that timeline (like the Guzzlord parallel domain I mentioned earlier)

...I have no idea what you're talking about now. Guzzlord has no bearing on the space times of the pokemon multiverse. It's just strong, it has no control over anything.

 

[Arceus0x]

I already explained. 3-C is a lower end, assuming the universe is not infinite and thus using the minimum assumption, using the size of the observable universe as we do not know what lies beyond there.

High 3-A is because UN lit up an infinite universe and also absorbed light from infinite universes via wormholes (if i understood that right, if you don't trust that ask Kukui)

 

[Joycap]

Guzzlord has no domain. He just lives in a parallel dimension

...I have no idea what you're talking about now. Guzzlord has no bearing on the space times of the pokemon multiverse. It's just strong, it has no control over anything.

I just hesitated to call Guzzlord's area a 'universe'. You know what I meant.

I already explained. 3-C is a lower end, assuming the universe is not infinite and thus using the minimum assumption, using the size of the observable universe as we do not know what lies beyond there.

High 3-A is because UN lit up an infinite universe and also absorbed light from infinite universes via wormholes (if i understood that right, if you don't trust that ask Kukui)

Hang on, then how are we still juggling the idea that UltNecro could still be 3-C, when High 3-A is the absolute minimum base for an 'infinite universe', which would solidify UltNecro's scaling at these levels beyond reasonable doubt?

Really cute with the Curb Your Enthusiasm, be a shame if me and Arceus said two things that were true and we weren't conflicting each other...

I said you can not downscale TO 3-C from High 3-A, because High 3-A is an infinite 3D amount of energy. You can not remove any amount of energy from 'infinite' and get anything that isn't also infinite. So a character that's weaker than a High 3-A character but can still be on their level MUST be High 3-A.

A character CAN downscale from High 3-A...They'll just be a lower High 3-A. Which is what Arceus said, these two things do not conflict.

And 3-C is a huge tier, almost 800x in scope. If you're weaker than someone in that tier, but still comparable? You're almost certainly 3-C, but lower.

Fair enough. I think my only question in this instance is how a character would get a foot in the door of that power to begin with if there's no feasible way to go below High 3-A afterwards. UltNecro absorbing light from infinite universes is one thing. Deciding that scaling has gone from quantifiable figures to "this is infinite now" is another.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I don't agree with the scaling in the OP but I do agree with rewording some justifications to make them clearer overall, including images and such.

 

[Arceus0x]

I already explained, we pokemon supporters aren't 100% sure (and the wiki mods as well) that the multiverse is truly infinite as some parts are questionable. Thus we have a 100% true 3-C and the likely/possible option of high 3-A.

 

[Joycap]

I don't agree with the scaling in the OP but I do agree with rewording some justifications to make them clearer overall, including images and such.

I want to make that clear - we're either downgrading shit to planetary until this gets corroborated, or the articles in question are getting reworded to justify the claim better. I'm in the former camp, but either way works.

I already explained, we pokemon supporters aren't 100% sure (and the wiki mods as well) that the multiverse is truly infinite as some parts are questionable. Thus we have a 100% true 3-C and the likely/possible option of high 3-A.

 

[Valiant_Abyss]

I dunno what this meme is trying to accomplish. Its quite simple.

Ultra Necrozma is bare minimum 3-C, but there is potentially infinite universes that Necrozma may have absorbed light from, hence making this "possibly/likely High 3-A"

 

[Arceus0x]

Keep trying to use memes to get the moral high ground. We needed more clowns around these parts. You already got the job.

Anyways it seems you don't understand the most basic stuff here.
I already said, it is based on cosmology.

If it's 2-B cosmology then it is 3-C

If it's 2-A cosmology then it is high 3-A

Arceus got 2-B, likely 2-A as his rating as a comprise between arguing sides and thus pokemon who depend on cosmology also get similar variations.

 

[Joycap]

I dunno what this meme is trying to accomplish. Its quite simple.

Ultra Necrozma is bare minimum 3-C, but there is potentially infinite universes that Necrozma may have absorbed light from, hence making this "possibly/likely High 3-A"

OK let me put this another way: If you're adamant that Ultra Necrozma pulled from an 'infinite universe' or multiple of them, what else are you debating at that point?

 

[Arceus0x]

I'm not adamant. The ones who made the revisions are. So to make sure they called it a 3-C, likely high 3-A. As this situation is indeed very likely

 

[Mageman460]

OK let me put this another way: If you're adamant that Ultra Necrozma pulled from an 'infinite universe' or multiple of them, what else are you debating at that point?

Better question ... what are you actually debating?

 

[Joycap]

I'm not adamant. The ones who made the revisions are. So to make sure they called it a 3-C, likely high 3-A. As this situation is indeed very likely

 

[Joycap]

Better question ... what are you actually debating?

I'm playing the side that wants to downgrade to Tier 5 range (5-B approx), but as long as the reasoning attributed to whatever scaling is given is better worded and justified, I'm happy.

I'd be lying if I said I wasn't learning a lot.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I want to make that clear - we're either downgrading shit to planetary until this gets corroborated, or the articles in question are getting reworded to justify the claim better. I'm in the former camp, but either way works.

This meme doesn't even make sense. The likely High 3-A stems from the overall Pokemon cosmology, which is a countless, likely infinite structure (2-B, likely 2-A)

Basically, the 3-C is if it's a 2-B structure and the High 3-A is if it's a 2-A structure.

 

[Arceus0x]

That's how mafia works