The Unova Legends scaling has been bugging me for a hot minute (possible revision: 3-A -> 5-B, at LEAST 6-A)

[StrymULTRA]

Honestly it doesn’t even look like fully Mewtwo’s strength, if anything it looks more like the spoon is doing the brunt of the tanking.

Headcanon, it was its physical strenght, read the scans again.

where he is one-shot by 4-A characters

That was hax tbh, same hax which one-shotted Arceus to say one.

and fails to fully stop the Tree of Life from moving even when assisted by hundreds of other Pokemon.

The same game where Mega Rayquaza and Deoxys can fight toghether with the same strenght? Sure.

 

[JJSliderman]

For some reason I can't access the scans, but.

I'm pretty sure that Mewtwo only really successfully blocked attacks with the spoon, when Zygarde used Dragon Pulse on Mewtwo's physicals it was a one-shot. I fail to see any real AP scaling here, especially when the first scan makes no real nod to Mewtwo's strength. And if the argument is Mewtwo was in a power struggle against Zygarde, then there are other characters who have grappled with higher AP characters or restrained them but don't scale (Doflamingo, Shifu). I still don't really buy Mewtwo's AP scaling, and only barely do for durability.

 

[StrymULTRA]

For some reason I can't access the scans, but.

I'm pretty sure that Mewtwo only really successfully blocked attacks with the spoon, when Zygarde used Dragon Pulse on Mewtwo's physicals it was a one-shot. I fail to see any real AP scaling here, especially when the first scan makes no real nod to Mewtwo's strength. And if the argument is Mewtwo was in a power struggle against Zygarde, then there are other characters who have grappled with higher AP characters or restrained them but don't scale (Doflamingo, Shifu). I still don't really buy Mewtwo's AP scaling, and only barely do for durability.

Spoon

This is just headcanons and bias against the verse. Anyway, check if you can access from here.

 

[JJSliderman]

I don't really see how it's headcanon when Mewtwo only blocks one attack (while using the spoon) and then gets one-shot by the next one.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I don't really see how it's headcanon when Mewtwo only blocks one attack (while using the spoon)

Lysandre remarks Mewtwo being able to block its attacks thanks to its strenght

and then gets one-shot by the next one

It gets only knocked out and only temporarly, few chapters later it awakens again in the mega form. And I remark that when a mega evoution is defeated it revert to base.

 

[JJSliderman]

Knocked-out and one-shot are kinda semantics, Mewtwo was still rendered unable to move after physically taking a single hit from Zygarde. This scaling is still kinda weird to me, especially when Lysandre points out right after that "the difference in strength is obvious", and Mewtwo is putting all its effort into just stopping this attack.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Knocked-out and one-shot are kinda semantics

This is contradicting how Mega evolution works since Mewtwo wasn't reverted in base after that hit.

Mewtwo was still rendered unable to move after physically taking a single hit from Zygarde. This scaling is still kinda weird to me, especially when Lysandre points out right after that "the difference in strength is obvious", and Mewtwo is putting all its effort into just stopping this attack.

Still a better feat than base Necrozma, giving that 50% Zygarde could still fight against Ultra Necrozma. Plus it just means that 50% Zygarde > Mega Mewtwo, but not to the point to one-shot it with a random hit, and this didn't happen, since otherwise Mewtwo would have instantly reverted to base form after that physical attack

 

[SamanPatou]

What do you mean here?

It's just my personal interpretation on how I think Pokémon scaling should be handled as a whole (I'd keep each media separated), I just wanted to express it for transparency even though it doesn't affect anything. The scaling still makes sense with the current system, btw.

 

[StrymULTRA]

It's just my personal interpretation on how I think Pokémon scaling should be handled as a whole (I'd keep each media separated), I just wanted to express it for transparency even though it doesn't affect anything. The scaling still makes sense with the current system, btw.

Ok, thank you very much.

 

[StrymULTRA]

It's just my personal interpretation on how I think Pokémon scaling should be handled as a whole (I'd keep each media separated), I just wanted to express it for transparency even though it doesn't affect anything. The scaling still makes sense with the current system, btw.

Edit, guess I can apply the new wording, right? Since Kukui also agreed.

 

[JJSliderman]

I still don't really buy the scaling, but I guess everyone else already agreed.

 

[Joycap]

I think it's a bit of both by the sounds of it. Yes, the spoon seemed to be what took most of the attack, but it's not the same as saying the spoon has that durability without M2X as a backstop.

Is there anything we can up/downscale from the spoon, for prosperity's sake?

 

[StrymULTRA]

I think it's a bit of both by the sounds of it. Yes, the spoon seemed to be what took most of the attack, but it's not the same as saying the spoon has that durability without M2X as a backstop.

Is there anything we can up/downscale from the spoon, for prosperity's sake?

The spoon was just more a thing that Mewtwo to physically attack, it's not a power-boosting weapon since is a direct product of its psychic powers.

 

[JJSliderman]

Apparently spoons boost the psychic abilities of psychic types, but that's not as relevant here since Mewtwo X focuses more on offense. I just feel more like this is an outlier for Mega Mewtwo.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Apparently spoons boost the psychic abilities of psychic types, but that's not as relevant here since Mewtwo X focuses more on offense. I just feel more like this is an outlier for Mega Mewtwo.

You're confusing with the Twisted Spoon, which is another thing unrelated with Mewtwo's spoon.

 

[JJSliderman]

Idk why one spoon would be different from another but, eh.
Anyway considering this isn't even an amped 50% Zygarde, I don't really think Mewtwo scaling is super reasonable when considering similar cases in other series and how they were treated. That's all.

 

[Joycap]

The spoon was just more a thing that Mewtwo to physically attack, it's not a power-boosting weapon since is a direct product of its psychic powers.

Oh no I never said it was an amp for Mewtwo (in fact I agree with you in that it's a physical object), I'm just saying that I don't think the object would last without M2X there. If anything, it would lower the likeability that Dura scales because he felt it necessary that external element be there.

 

[Joycap]

Idk why one spoon would be different from another but, eh.
Anyway considering this isn't even an amped 50% Zygarde, I don't really think Mewtwo scaling is super reasonable when considering similar cases in other series and how they were treated. That's all.

In that case, should external factors be argued on a case by case basis? Because I've found it somewhat fishy that it's Lysandre there, and I want to verify 50%Garde didn't have any amps in these panels knowing what he's done in various iterations.

Ash Gren upscaling when?

 

[JJSliderman]

There was a previous thread going over how Zygarde wasn't amped that was accepted.

 

[Joycap]

There was a previous thread going over how Zygarde wasn't amped that was accepted.

May I see it?

 

[JJSliderman]

https://vsbattles.com/threads/small-zygarde-revision.113689/

 

[StrymULTRA]

...are you seriously listening to JJ who admitted indirectly to use argument from incredulity?

 

[JJSliderman]

It's not argument from incredulity, it's looking at Mewtwo's example of scaling and contrasting it with other, similar instances from other series, and how they were treated, which from my understanding is contrary to Mewtwo's scaling here.

 

[Joycap]

...are you seriously listening to JJ who admitted indirectly to use argument from incredulity?

I want to hear him out on what he means and what he's trying to say. If I'm going to listen to those with the most bank on this site, I expect people like you to expand the same common courtesy to the rest of us.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Tbh, I've already explained why the scaling is legit.

The spoon stuff is dumb since Mewtwo's spoon is not a random power increasing item, but a thing made from its own psychic powers, it wouldn't make sense if Mewtwo's psychic powers are greater than its stats, when they scale physically to the Pokémon's stats here.

 

[JJSliderman]

Even if the scaling was legit, still kind of an outlier really.

And given that Doflamingo had his scaling to Bound Man Luffy removed for almost exactly the same reason, it seems kind of hypocritical to keep it for Mewtwo.

 

[Joycap]

Tbh, I've already explained why the scaling is legit.

The spoon stuff is dumb since Mewtwo's spoon is not a random power increasing item, but a thing made from its own psychic powers, it wouldn't make sense if Mewtwo's psychic powers are greater than its stats, when they scale physically to the Pokémon's stats here.

All I can really say to that is if his psychic powers did scale, then maybe there should be some proof that it could have been relied on outright instead of getting bodied the second the spoon broke. That's (at least partially) what I think JJ is trying to say.

Even if the scaling was legit, still kind of an outlier really.

And given that Doflamingo had his scaling to Bound Man Luffy removed for almost exactly the same reason, it seems kind of hypocritical to keep it for Mewtwo.

Link?

 

[JJSliderman]

https://vsbattles.com/threads/doflamingo-high-7-a-downgrade-thread.117015/

It's almost word for word the same
-Never harmed the character being scaled to
-Took hits from said character
-Was one-shot and knocked out for a good portion of the fight

Doflamingo arguably had even more grounds to scale, but the scaling was still removed because Doflamingo never harmed Luffy. Since Mewtwo didn't harm Zygarde in any way, I think the same course of action should be done here.

 

[Joycap]

https://vsbattles.com/threads/doflamingo-high-7-a-downgrade-thread.117015/

It's almost word for word the same
-Never harmed the character being scaled to
-Took hits from said character
-Was one-shot and knocked out for a good portion of the fight

Doflamingo arguably had even more grounds to scale, but the scaling was still removed because Doflamingo never harmed Luffy. Since Mewtwo didn't harm Zygarde in any way, I think the same course of action should be done here.

That's actually pretty damning ngl

What did he end up scaled to in the end? I'm seeing people vacillating between 7-A/High 7-A and Mountain Level (7-B, iirc). Although someone in this thread is going to bring up how 3-C has that whole '900x range' that was mentioned earlier.

 

[JJSliderman]

He just ended up scaling to Mountain+.

My point is just, if one character has a certain set of conditions that determines their scaling, then all characters who follow those conditions should be subject to the same scrutiny regarding scaling.

 

[StrymULTRA]

https://vsbattles.com/threads/doflamingo-high-7-a-downgrade-thread.117015/

It's almost word for word the same
-Never harmed the character being scaled to
-Took hits from said character
-Was one-shot and knocked out for a good portion of the fight

Doflamingo arguably had even more grounds to scale, but the scaling was still removed because Doflamingo never harmed Luffy. Since Mewtwo didn't harm Zygarde in any way, I think the same course of action should be done here.

So you're ignoring that Mewtwo wasn't reverted to base form, which would indicate that the scaling wouldn't be a thing.

Plus funny how Joycap is giving kudos now to any argument in favor of the downgrade now.

 

[JJSliderman]

Whether Mewtwo was reverted or not isn't really relevant, he was described as knocked out by Lysandre. Plus he never fought against Zygarde again after he was knocked out.

In fact it's not even known if Mewtwo stayed in Mega or not, it's just assumed based on one panel where Mewtwo is in his mega form. It could have been just a drawing error, or Mewtwo could have reverted off-panel.

 

[Joycap]

My point is just, if one character has a certain set of conditions that determines their scaling, then all characters who follow those conditions should be subject to the same scrutiny regarding scaling.

[Laughs in Replica Monado scaling]

So you're ignoring that Mewtwo wasn't reverted to base form, which would indicate that the scaling wouldn't be a thing.

If the bodying happened in base, this wouldn't be a problem, but as we can see from the scans, this is M2X struggling. If you're so sure, may I see what ultimately defeated Zygarde, if applicable?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Nice headcanon bro.

In Pokémon when a Mega Evolution is fully defeated reverts to base, which didn't happen to Mewtwo, meaning that it didn't fully one-shot.

But you're ignoring how the verse treats Mega Evolution to fit your narrative, but ok

 

[JJSliderman]

That just seems like nitpicking, especially when the "fully defeated" Lucario recovered a hell of a lot quicker than Mewtwo did.

 

[StrymULTRA]

If the bodying happened in base, this wouldn't be a problem, but as we can see from the scans, this is M2X struggling. If you're so sure, may I see what ultimately defeated Zygarde, if applicable?

Zygarde wasn't defeated, it retreated from itself iirc.

Plus, struggling means shit in all honestly, managing to even take few hits from a dude who managed to fight against Ultra Necrozma is a better feat than being just baseline like base Necrozma.

That just seems like nitpicking, especially when the "fully defeated" Lucario recovered a hell of a lot quicker than Mewtwo did.

It still was reverted to base, meaning that it got defeated worse that Mewtwo was.

 

[JJSliderman]

Saying Mewtwo kept his mega state the entire time it was knocked out requires about as much headcanon as saying it reverted.

I will say if Mewtwo's rating had to stay, I think it should only be with the spoon, considering Mewtwo does do better against Zygarde when it has the spoon than when it doesn't.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Plus, I'd remind that even in games when a mega Pokémon gets fully defeated it revers to base, so why is Mewtwo magically an exception here

 

[StrymULTRA]

I will say if Mewtwo's rating had to stay, I think it should only be with the spoon, considering Mewtwo does do better against Zygarde when it has the spoon than when it doesn't.

Bullshit, I already explained why the spoon isn't a power boost

 

[JJSliderman]

That's not really true, in games when Megas are defeated they just fall over and get back in the ball.

Looking on-panel a spoon Mewtwo just blatantly has better showings against Zygarde than without.