The Unova Legends scaling has been bugging me for a hot minute (possible revision: 3-A -> 5-B, at LEAST 6-A)

[Joycap]

If there have been other threads on this kind of thing, let me know.

OK, so for those that know my place on these forums (which has been less than a couple of months), you may be aware of my chagrin when it comes to where the Legendaries are scaled. As far as regions and said legends, the principle offender BY FAR is Gen 5, specifically Kyurem (and by extension, Zekrom and Reshiram). Let's go into the reasons why.

En quote (Kyurem):
Attack Potency: At least Galaxy level, possibly High Universe level (As the being Team Plasma used in its world domination attempt, existing as their magnum opus, it should be superior to Shiny Genesect and the technology used to upgrade it. Shouldn't be too much weaker than Reshiram and Zekrom).

OK, problem: the pages for Reshiram/Zekrom are ultimately unsourced. The only ones they mention are Kyurem (see above), Genesect, specifically Shiny (which I will come onto in a second) and Mewtwo (Base + X and Y megas). This is where we move on to the legends that are sourced.

En quote (Gensect):
Attack Potency: Planet level (Capable of fighting Mewtwo) | At least Galaxy level, possibly High Universe level (Fought and damaged Mega Mewtwo Y)

You may notice that Genesect in base is noted as Planetary (5-B), with spars with M2Y putting it at 3-A (High Universal). Now, let's have a look at Mewtwo's page:

En quote: (Mewtwo, and related forms):
Attack Potency: Planet level (Despite being marginally weaker than Normal Forme Deoxys, it was still capable of impaling it with its spoon) | At least Galaxy level, possibly High Universe level (Vastly superior to its base form. Fought Zygarde as Mega Mewtwo X and Y in the manga, who is comparable to Yveltal and Xerneas in it's 50% state) | Multi-Solar System level (Created his realm that contains multiple stars), at least Galaxy level, possibly High Universe level as Shadow Mega Mewtwo X (Should be comparable, if not superior to other Mega Mewtwo forms)

Let's unpack a few things here (Deoxys, I'll get onto in a sec):

Firstly, is the mention of Zygarde fighting, the logic being that spars between it and Ultra Necrozma put 50% at that level (complete form also getting in on the action). But my problem with this scaling, as well as the wording, is that Zygarde has always (both narratively and literally) been the anti-meta of both Yveltal and Xerneas (Aura Break for 50%, and the following dex entry for Complete form). I bring this up because both 50% and 100% both use the 3-C to High 3-A range, and it should be common sense what I'm implying when I bring up the idea that Complete form doesn't even scale to 50%, which is just... no... that would be like if Replica Monado Shulk scaled directly to 2-A Zanza because he was able to trade han- oh...

Point being is that the Megas (M2) that fought Zygarde does not specify which form of Zygarde was fought. If the Megas fought only 50%, then the scaling to complete form (and by extension, scaling to Ultra Necrozma (3-C+)) is not applicable.

Oh and Yveltal and Xerneas's pages are also unsourced in this way. If Aura Break is enough of a nerf to put Xerneas/Yveltal equal to 50% Zygarde, wouldn't that put them naturally higher?

Secondly (and this is assuming GodGarde scaling is air tight), were separate toggles for the Manga, Anime and Pokken not possible to make (a la Mirage page)? I bring this up because the bout between Zygarde and Ultra Necrozma happened in the Manga, and I have to question how well supported by the main series the Manga is (to say nothing of the Anime, as Zygarde and Ultra Necrozma haven't appeared in the same Gen when it comes to XY and SM series). I'll confess, I haven't read the Manga, and I won't act like I have, I just want to make sure that is clarified, and I do want to make it clear that I still think the 100% (Complete form) 3-C+ scaling still holds up, it's just that the 50% scaling (and by extension, Xerneas and Yveltal) does not.

Speaking of, I don't recall Pokken being directly canonical to the series, and Shadow Mewtwo is a form that only appears in Pokken, so scaling that all the way back to Kyurem (a mon that does not appear in Pokken) strikes me as disingenuous.

Regardless, that's enough of the Zygarde tangent, let's return to whatever else Mewtwo's page mentions. Oh, right: Deoxys.

En quote: Deoxys (+ related forms):
Attack Potency: Planet level (Telekinetically controlled the Grand Meteor Delta, which is this strong. Fought on par with Rayquaza), higher in Attack Form (Nearly killed Mewtwo while in Attack Form)

Here, I seem to notice that any references to Galaxy-level scaling isn't even bothered with. And that's where we get to the most damning thing about these 7+ degrees of separation, which (assuming that all main-series scaling has been in good faith) comes out to...

En quote (Rayquaza):
Attack Potency: Planet level (Overwhelmed both Primal Groudon and Primal Kyogre 1,000 years ago. Fought Deoxys on equal footing) | At least Galaxy level, possibly High Universe level (Did this. Effortlessly destroyed the Grand Meteor Delta, which would completely obliterate the planet. Stomped Deoxys, destroying even its Psycho Boost with no difficulty at all. Should be stronger than Mega Mewtwo X/Y, as its base performed better against Deoxys than Mewtwo did)

Planet... level... with citations to the Primals put at continental.

As we've already proven, the galaxy-level scaling via Mewtwo's mega evolutions is founded on... flimsy evidence, and would likely be invalidated (I'm not actually sure why this part bought up the Mega Mewtwo(s), when I can't remember anywhere off the top of my head where Mewtwo (either form) and Mega Ray have even fought). I understand that the direct justification for Rayquaza having Galaxy level power is cited with whatever this is (the state of the archive is pretty shoddy, so a fresh post of it's contents would be appreciated), but the canonicity of the Mystery Dungeon series is something I would also call into question just as much as the Manga, and whether or not it's events are supported by anything in the main series games or anime (or the Manga if someone can prove to me it's standing).

In closing, these are the revisions I'd like to discuss:

Kyurem: At least 6-A, possibly 5-B (higher with fused forms). Scaling changes also apply to Zekrom and Reshiram.
Genesect: (Base) Unchanged | (Shiny) At least 5-B (depending on Mewtwo changes).
Mewtwo: (Base) Unchanged | (Mega Evolutions (X and Y)) At Least 5-B, possibly higher (depending on Zygarde scaling) | (Shadow Mewtwo) N/A, so unchanged (category node pending).
Zygarde: (50%) At least 5-B, possibly higher | (Complete form) Unchanged.
Yveltal / Xerneas: Ultimately unchanged. Add 'possibly higher' node for High 3-A scaling, or add more substantive source / evidence.
Deoxys: Unchanged (all forms). Potential addition of 3-C+ scaling anecdote if Zygarde scaling is properly substantiated.
Rayquaza: (All Forms) remove 3-C+ scaling until further notice.

Tl;dr: Revise wording, add more substantial sources and/or remove Tier 3 scaling from unsubstantiated articles. Discuss also media (Games/Anime/Manga/Other) nodes.

Oh, and this is only AP scaling. On the contrary, I'm not looking for exact AP calcs exactly. That's clinging to technicalities IMHO.

 

[Joycap]

E: If Zygarde (50%) scaling was correct, then we would be putting Ash Greninja higher than Mountain Level. Refer to the Zygarde 50% used in the Team Flare arc of the Anime, that was doped with several amps.

 

[XitSign]

I'm not even sure why the Mewtwo page is even phrased that way, because that's not what the justifications are on Zygarde's own page for 50%

The way it's worded on Mewtwo's page is just...nonsensical. Oh Zygarde's page are the scans for 50% fighting Ultra Necrozma directly, Yveltal and Xerneas aren't relevant for that scaling chain at all.

 

[Joycap]

I'm not even sure why the Mewtwo page is even phrased that way, because that's not what the justifications are on Zygarde's own page for 50%

The way it's worded on Mewtwo's page is just...nonsensical. Oh Zygarde's page are the scans for 50% fighting Ultra Necrozma directly, Yveltal and Xerneas aren't relevant for that scaling chain at all.

About to say, if Mewtwo was relevant to Zygarde, Zygarde's page would mention M2. But it doesn't.

And yeah you might be right about Yveltal/Xerneas, I just wanted to exemplify how the wording is inside-out.

As for 50% fighting Ultra Necrozma, refer to my quip about Replica Monado Shulk scaling to true form Zanza (unless you're not familiar with Xenoblade in which case let me know).

 

[Arceus0x]

Ah shit here we go again.

Zygarde 50% fought Ultra Necrozma. Like actually fought it in a 1v1 before going into 100% form. He tanked attacks from it and damaged it back. There's nothing to suggest that he's immensly lower than UN, besides the anime outliers that is as they are o plenty. 100% form can overwhelm xerneas OR yveltal, not AND yveltal. Means that he's above 1 of them.
50% Z is almost directly comparable to these two, it would make sense that his 100% form is above one of them.

Mewtwo fought against 50% Zygarde whilst weakend and actually tanked multiple attacks from him.


Next you bring up the canonicity of pokken and manga... Could you please just read up on blogs related to pokemon verse please?
there was a whole accepted thread and blog talking about, AND proving that manga and spin offs are canon as long as they don't contradict the original source. (The scans are the interviews with pokemon creators which prove that every game, manga and spin-off are supervised by gamefreak and made sure to be very close to each other).

 

[Arceus0x]

What you are essentially saying is that a form that's already called 50% form is vastly weaker than the 100% form despite fighting the same being for a while and lacking anti-feats.

 

[XitSign]

About to say, if Mewtwo was relevant to Zygarde, Zygarde's page would mention M2. But it doesn't.

And yeah you might be right about Yveltal/Xerneas, I just wanted to exemplify how the wording is inside-out.

As for 50% fighting Ultra Necrozma, refer to my quip about Replica Monado Shulk scaling to true form Zanza (unless you're not familiar with Xenoblade in which case let me know).

Mewtwo's feats definitely aren't relevant for Zygarde, but Zygarde's are for Mewtwo. I'm just personally confused why we mention Yveltal and Xerneas at all. Their scaling comes from Zygarde too, it's kinda redundant...

Yeah I see your comparison but I don't think it holds up well. Zygarde 'wittles' as 50% and does better as 100%. 50% should pretty obviously just downscale, Ultra Necrozma is stronger but not by enough that it can't possibly lose over time. The characters outright point it out.

No it seems like the actual problems here is just Mewtwo's justifications are worded poorly. That needs resolved, everyone else involved makes much better sense with it cleared up.

 

[Arceus0x]

Yeah I agree with rewording. There's a lot of useless info in the justifications. It's a lot simpler to say
(Capable of fighting those who can harm it)
And say in durability (Whilst weakened, tanked multiple direct powerful attacks from 50% Zygarde)

 

[Joycap]

Zygarde 50% fought Ultra Necrozma. Like actually fought it in a 1v1 before going into 100% form. He tanked attacks from it and damaged it back. There's nothing to suggest that he's immensly lower than UN, besides the anime outliers that is as they are o plenty. 100% form can overwhelm xerneas OR yveltal, not AND yveltal. Means that he's above 1 of them.
50% Z is almost directly comparable to these two, it would make sense that his 100% form is above one of them.

*Mewtwo fought against 50% Zygarde whilst weakened and actually tanked multiple attacks from him.

This* is irrelevant to what 100% can do (the one more justified to Galaxy level scaling). Once again, see my comparison to Replica Monado Shulk -> Zanza, or I'll put in a request for amendment for that instead.

Also looking at the way that either/or is worded in the dex, there's nothing to suggest that if both Xern/Yvel both turned up, he couldn't blitz / apply restriction to both.

May I also ask what you mean by 50% Z (typo?), and which Anime outliers you are referring to?

Next you bring up the canonicity of pokken and manga... Could you please just read up on blogs related to pokemon verse please?
there was a whole accepted thread and blog talking about, AND proving that manga and spin offs are canon as long as they don't contradict the original source. (The scans are the interviews with pokemon creators which prove that every game, manga and spin-off are supervised by gamefreak and made sure to be very close to each other).

Then would you have the common courtesy to cite those threads and interviews for prosperity / verification sake?

What you are essentially saying is that a form that's already called 50% form is vastly weaker than the 100% form despite fighting the same being for a while and lacking anti-feats.

Anti-feats? Isn't that what Aura Break is? Or are we saying that the cited "100% pops one or the other" implying that Power Construct is needed, meaning Aura Break doesn't apply?

 

[Joycap]

Yeah I see your comparison but I don't think it holds up well. Zygarde 'wittles' as 50% and does better as 100%. 50% should pretty obviously just downscale, Ultra Necrozma is stronger but not by enough that it can't possibly lose over time. The characters outright point it out.

Same could be said for Shulk w/ replica trading hands with Zanza before M3 is broken out. If this is a false equivalency, may I ask why?

And if we do get to downscaling 50% Zygarde, and we're struggling to decide by how much, then where does this scaling to the Legendary Birds comes from for 10% form? Keep in mind the 50% dex entries mention "the ecosystem of Kalos", and the stand in for France is an island country, so that's anywhere within tier 6 -> planetary scaling to other base legends. 50% being only slightly more powerful than 10% doesn't sit well with me.

 

[Arceus0x]

https://vsbattles.com/threads/a-new-approach-to-pokemon-canon.113973/

 

[Arceus0x]

Same could be said for Shulk w/ replica trading hands with Zanza before M3 is broken out. If this is a false equivalency, may I ask why?

And if we do get to downscaling 50% Zygarde, and we're struggling to decide by how much, then where does this scaling to the Legendary Birds comes from for 10% form? Keep in mind the 50% dex entries mention "the ecosystem of Kalos", and the stand in for France is an island country, so that's anywhere within tier 6 -> planetary scaling to other base legends. 50% being only slightly more powerful than 10% doesn't sit well with me.

I would try to refute the monado example and probably would succeed but i haven't finished the game yet so i can't and won't spoil myself.

 

[XitSign]

Same could be said for Shulk w/ replica trading hands with Zanza before M3 is broken out. If this is a false equivalency, may I ask why?

And if we do get to downscaling 50% Zygarde, and we're struggling to decide by how much, then where does this scaling to the Legendary Birds comes from for 10% form? Keep in mind the 50% dex entries mention "the ecosystem of Kalos", and the stand in for France is an island country, so that's anywhere within tier 6 -> planetary scaling to other base legends. 50% being only slightly more powerful than 10% doesn't sit well with me.

I don't know the context, but regardless it's still a "what about"-ism. How the wiki has chosen to scale that situation, it really doesn't have anything to do with Pokemon. It may need revised, it may not, but it's not the same situation here, it's an entirely different verse.

10% scales to the birds because the birds have the lowest legendary feats we accept, thus if we have no decent feats for other legendary pokemon we at least scale them to the birds. They logically shouldn't be weaker than them.

50% can downscale and still be in tge same tier without breaking any logic, in fact it makes more sense that way, 50% is all but stated that it could've wirk Ultra Necrozma down...100% is just stronger. Same tier, different values.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Bruh

 

[Arceus0x]

10% is AT LEAST low 6-B, meaning we don't have a good feat for him and thus he is this tier for now though i would argue that he probably scales somewhere near 50%

 

[Arceus0x]

This* is irrelevant to what 100% can do (the one more justified to Galaxy level scaling). Once again, see my comparison to Replica Monado Shulk -> Zanza, or I'll put in a request for amendment for that instead.

Also looking at the way that either/or is worded in the dex, there's nothing to suggest that if both Xern/Yvel both turned up, he couldn't blitz / apply restriction to both.

May I also ask what you mean by 50% Z (typo?), and which Anime outliers you are referring to?



Then would you have the common courtesy to cite those threads and interviews for prosperity / verification sake?



Anti-feats? Isn't that what Aura Break is? Or are we saying that the cited "100% pops one or the other" implying that Power Construct is needed, meaning Aura Break doesn't apply?

How is it irrelevant? There is no anti-feats to suggest that Zygarde doesn't scale except for anime PIS.
How is aura break even related to this? It is literally an ability that cancels out aura abilities of Xerneas and Yveltal, it has no effect on the fight with Zygarde.

Also the fact that nothing suggests that he can't blitz Xerneas and Yveltal is a fallacy unless i misunderstood your wording.

Also how hard is it to understand that 50% Z is 50% Zygarde but abreviated cause it is a pain having big fingers and a small phone keyboard and having to write down Zygarde, Zygarde, Zygarde over and over again.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Tbh, I definitely agree that we'd need scans to support these scalings, make imgur albums for it and link to the profiles. OP doesen't seem against scaling, but just wants to remove Tier 3 scaling since it seems without any proof to back it, which I can agree to an extent. If you wish, I'll create new wording for the scaling including the scans needed to justify the scaling.

 

[Joycap]

https://vsbattles.com/threads/a-new-approach-to-pokemon-canon.113973/

Right, because to reiterate, my problem with Shadow Mewtwo scaling is that none of the legends on his profile or in this thread (except for maybe Reshiram if we're desperate to stretch) and their associated amendments actually fight Shadow Mewtwo, so unless we are willing to draw completely different degrees of separation between Pokken roster and Shadow Mewtwo back to the legends in question, I would be willing to write Shadow Mewtwo off as either irrelevant or an outlier. My problem with the Mystery Dungeon scaling as well is that we're using Arceus (2-A), M2Y (presumably 3-C+, but contested), MegaRay (also assumed 3-C+, but contested) and Deoxys (5-B+) ATOP a bunch of other adds in order to stop... a 4-B (Star Level) feat? Something is not adding up here.

I also want to make it clear (as I'm eyeing up the closed 'similar threads' belched up by this site's algorithm) that I have no issue with Ultra Necrozma's 3-A peak (Alola is the most justified to hold Galaxy-level scaling on it's own merits) nor do I have issue with 100%Garde scaling directly if Manga has enough canonical oversight to justify it (hence the link above).

I don't know the context, but regardless it's still a "what about"-ism. How the wiki has chosen to scale that situation, it really doesn't have anything to do with Pokemon. It may need revised, it may not, but it's not the same situation here, it's an entirely different verse.

I just think it's a frisky double standard, that's all.

How is it irrelevant? There is no anti-feats to suggest that Zygarde doesn't scale except for anime PIS.
How is aura break even related to this? It is literally an ability that cancels out aura abilities of Xerneas and Yveltal, it has no effect on the fight with Zygarde.

PIS? What's do you mean? I've never seen that term.

Also I bring up Aura Break because it is listed on Zygarde's profile, so unless a revision means striking it off entirely, I'd take that as something that weakens specifically Xern/Yvel (it's main application of the ability, and how is it's 50% form supposed to ward off Xern/Yvel? In canon anime, I don't generally see them carry anything other than their STABs).

Also the fact that nothing suggests that he can't blitz Xerneas and Yveltal is a fallacy unless i misunderstood your wording.

No I'm saying if this were Zygarde taking on Xern/Yvel at the same time, nothing in the dex entry cited suggests it wouldn't be able to put both down at that same time.

Tbh, I definitely agree that we'd need scans to support these scalings, make imgur albums for it and link to the profiles. OP doesen't seem against scaling, but just wants to remove Tier 3 scaling since it seems without any proof to back it, which I can agree to an extent. If you wish, I'll create new wording for the scaling including the scans needed to justify the scaling.

That's about right. Thanks.

Remember, the end goal of this thread is scaling running back to Kyurem specifically. Either change the frames of reference amongst legendaries and other scaleable material, or assume the Galaxy-Level scaling for Kyurem is unsubstantiated.

 

[StrymULTRA]

That's about right. Thanks.

Remember, the end goal of this thread is scaling running back to Kyurem specifically. Either change the frames of reference amongst legendaries and other scaleable material, or assume the Galaxy-L

Honestly is because of Ghetsis not having any interest towards the galaxy/universe, just about the Earth.

 

[Joycap]

Honestly is because of Ghetsis not having any interest towards the galaxy/universe, just about the Earth.

In that case the interest in world domination should be struck off ASAP. Not to mention that there are a few instances where his interest in Kyurem's "full power" is mentioned (Generations is the one off the top of my head, but there might be a line from B2W2 etc. that I'm missing). It'd make no sense to me that he wouldn't come across it's galactic-level destructive potential at some point (team unrelated) assuming scaling is founded, he's at least that smart.

 

[Arceus0x]

I think we should wait til Kukui gets here for 1

For 2. Dark matter is prolly outdated

For 3. I still don't see the relevance of aura break. It's not used against necrozma or mewtwo so the scaling holds on, I'mma relook at the aura break ability but it only weakens two specific pokemon.
___
"No I'm saying if this were Zygarde taking on Xern/Yvel at the same time, nothing in the dex entry cited suggests it wouldn't be able to put both down at that same time."

Opposite is true as well though, thus, fallacy

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I have to leave for work soon, so I definitely will not be able to deal with this majorly until later. But can someone explain to me what magical reason for this downgrade changes from the last time this was attempted and got shot down?

 

[Arceus0x]

What I want from you is to simplify your arguments. Just write it all in one semi-long paragraph. Why do you think 50% Zygarde doesn't scale? It's all i need, just one paragrpah that makes everything easy to understand.

Shadow mewtwo and SMX scales above normal mewtwo and MMX. Thus he gets the tier. If you say that there is no evidence that that mewtwo scales to legendaries then i might as well say that all the legendaries there have no evidence of scaling to the same feats. Yet we see clearly that this is a Mewtwo like all others, one that absorbed a darker crystal that is. Also SM fought normal Mewtwo as both are in-game characters so...

 

[StrymULTRA]

In that case the interest in world domination should be struck off ASAP. Not to mention that there are a few instances where his interest in Kyurem's "full power" is mentioned (Generations is the one off the top of my head, but there might be a line from B2W2 etc. that I'm missing). It'd make no sense to me that he wouldn't come across it's galactic-level destructive potential at some point (team unrelated) assuming scaling is founded, he's at least that smart.

I don't think it should, since being interested in just a zone =/= meaning he can't go beyond it. It's just a way to indicate that it's stronger since they got a better weapon than their own creation.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Like, im not at all understanding the downgrade posts argument here, so I need this summed up and clarified as clear as possible please.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Like, im not at all understanding the downgrade posts argument here, so I need this summed up and clarified as clear as possible please.

In short, the justifications lack scans so downgrade as is unsourced. Worry not, as I have the scans saved.

 

[Arceus0x]

It's all wing dings and confusing

 

[Joycap]

I still don't see the relevance of aura break. It's not used against necrozma or mewtwo so the scaling holds on, I'mma relook at the aura break ability but it only weakens two specific pokemon.

No I'm saying that fights between AB Zygarde 50% and Xern/Yvel scale as far as anti-feats are concerned. I'm saying that 50%Garde doesn't justify Tier 3 scaling in the same way that Xern/Yvel and Ultra Necrozma do. Xern/Yvel are likely higher than T3, or Zygarde 50% loses to every Tier 3 in the series without substantive or exculpatory evidence (which you have not supplied other than bouts with Ultra Necrozma that fall apart lest Complete Form was not needed).

"No I'm saying if this were Zygarde taking on Xern/Yvel at the same time, nothing in the dex entry cited suggests it wouldn't be able to put both down at that same time."

Opposite is true as well though, thus, fallacy

I would call it proving a negative. Sorry, I was kinda being unfair there.

Shadow mewtwo and SMX scales above normal mewtwo and MMX. Thus he gets the tier. If you say that there is no evidence that that mewtwo scales to legendaries then i might as well say that all the legendaries there have no evidence of scaling to the same feats. Yet we see clearly that this is a Mewtwo like all others, one that absorbed a darker crystal that is. Also SM fought normal Mewtwo as both are in-game characters so...

Read the OP again, when it came to the toggle for Shadow Mewtwo, I specifically put N/A because I do not think it needed scaling / AP changes. Because I questioned the canonical viability of Pokken being it's own, self-contained thing, I questioned if it's part in scaling other legends was relevant. Because in case you haven't noticed, if it's scaling is that important, every Pokken combatant from Croagunk to Charizard and every other would scale accordingly. Begrudgingly, you have not done this.

I'm not saying Shadow Mewtwo isn't 3-C+, I'm saying that the scaling to that point is not consistent. Is there a reason why?

I have to leave for work soon, so I definitely will not be able to deal with this majorly until later. But can someone explain to me what magical reason for this downgrade changes from the last time this was attempted and got shot down?

Like, im not at all understanding the downgrade posts argument here, so I need this summed up and clarified as clear as possible please.

If it makes you feel any better, I'm saying that the wording of the pages in question are poorly substantiated. If you're adamant that 3-C+ scaling exists on this scale, then I'm simply airing my questions on the matter (I.E: what @StrymULTRA just said):

In short, the justifications lack scans so downgrade as is unsourced. Worry not, as I have the scans saved.

Before anyone construes me the wrong way, I'm not asking for a downgrade to the verse. Stuff like Sinnoh Legends / Lake Trio justify Tier 2 scaling by literally just being that powerful (I'd pick a fight with some of the finer details, but that is ultimately irrelevant to this thread). I just think it's in our best interest that all of this is cleared up and applied for all to see.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Stuff like Sinnoh Legends / Lake Trio justify Tier 2 scaling by literally just being that powerful (I'd pick a fight with some of the finer details, but that is ultimately irrelevant to this thread). I just think it's in our best interest that all of this is cleared up and applied for all to see.

Except that Creation Trio has scans in the AP section

 

[Joycap]

Except that Creation Trio has scans in the AP section

May I see them? Again, I'm not questioning the veracity of Sinnoh's 2nd tier(s) (yet...), I'm just asking if those tier 2 subjects can be cited to back up galaxy level scaling (or higher) for other legends.

Because if we were so sure, I would have expected a better job done.

 

[StrymULTRA]

May I see them? Again, I'm not questioning the veracity of Sinnoh's 2nd tier(s) (yet...), I'm just asking if those tier 2 subjects can be cited to back up galaxy level scaling (or higher) for other legends.

Because if we were so sure, I would have expected a better job done.

On Dialga's:

Multiverse level, likely Multiverse level+ (In its fight against Palkia, all the space-time was distorting until eventually collapsing. Like Palkia, it was about to completely reset all the reality, which is made of an untold to likely an infinite number of universes, from destroying the concept of spirit. Is a good amount stronger than Darkrai, even with Palkia fighting it and drawing its attention)

On Palkia's:

Multiverse level, likely Multiverse level+ (In its fight against Dialga, all the space-time was distorting until eventually collapsing. Like Dialga, it was about to completely reset all the reality, which is made of an untold to likely an infinite number of universes, from destroying the concept of spirit. Even when weakened by Dialga and having most of its power and focus on it, is still a good amount stronger than Darkrai)

Both avatar key ofc.

 

[Arceus0x]

Aaaaand you didn't fullfill any of our requests. You couldn't even provide a simple TL;DR aka an Overall section.

50% Zygarde still scales on the same level as normal Ultra Beasts and Tapus, arguably comparable to Solgaleo and Lunala as he did better against UN than they did against Base Necrozma. So no he doesn't get destroyed by everyone. He does better than most actually. Using the Shiny Genesect scaling 50%Z is around the same level as Kyruem who plays the same role as him in the story, being a creature that is just a tad bit weaker than the main legends of the game but capable of fusing into something much greater.

 

[Joycap]

On Dialga's:

Multiverse level, likely Multiverse level+ (In its fight against Palkia, all the space-time was distorting until eventually collapsing. Like Palkia, it was about to completely reset all the reality, which is made of an untold to likely an infinite number of universes, from destroying the concept of spirit. Is a good amount stronger than Darkrai, even with Palkia fighting it and drawing its attention)

On Palkia's:

Multiverse level, likely Multiverse level+ (In its fight against Dialga, all the space-time was distorting until eventually collapsing. Like Dialga, it was about to completely reset all the reality, which is made of an untold to likely an infinite number of universes, from destroying the concept of spirit. Even when weakened by Dialga and having most of its power and focus on it, is still a good amount stronger than Darkrai)

Both avatar key ofc.

Again, I'm not arguing that Dialga/Palkia are tier 2, I accept that they are. I'm saying that if anything scaled to them (and Darkrai in this instance), I would have thought now is the time to say so.

Aaaaand you didn't fullfill any of our requests. You couldn't even provide a simple TL;DR aka an Overall section.

50% Zygarde still scales on the same level as normal Ultra Beasts and Tapus, arguably comparable to Solgaleo and Lunala as he did better against UN than they did against Base Necrozma. So no he doesn't get destroyed by everyone. He does better than most actually. Using the Shiny Genesect scaling 50%Z is around the same level as Kyruem who plays the same role as him in the story, being a creature that is just a tad bit weaker than the main legends of the game but capable of fusing into something much greater.

OK, let's... unpack this.

Again, Complete Zygarde I get, but where is your citation that Zyg50% was able to box any of the UBs or the Tapus. If you're bringing up Necrozma forms again, then citing the UBs and Tapus is completely irrelevant.

Also, I think you misunderstood what I said. If 50% scaling to UltNecro is relevant, then Complete form would never have been unleashed. Period, and there would be no reason to say otherwise. Hence our earlier scaling 50% to tier 6.

With that, I would like to ask: in the context of 50% Zygarde and ONLY that form, is Ultra Necrozma an outlier, yes or no? If it isn't, substantiate Xern/Yvel. Thank you.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Dudes, can y'all calm down while I write the AP sections with the scans? Thank you.

 

[XitSign]

Again, I'm not arguing that Dialga/Palkia are tier 2, I accept that they are. I'm saying that if anything scaled to them (and Darkrai in this instance), I would have thought now
Also, I think you misunderstood what I said. If 50% scaling to UltNecro is relevant, then Complete form would never have been unleashed. Period, and there would be no reason to say otherwise. Hence our earlier scaling 50% to tier 6.

I mean this just isn't true.

50% was 'wittling' Ultra Necrozma down, that was literally the word they used. That means Complete form still was likely to come out.

Ultra Necrozma is stronger than 50%, but not to the point that 50% was unable to fight, just that it was heavily at a disadvantage.

50% should downscale, and 100% should be more comparable.

It's that simple honestly.

 

[Joycap]

I mean this just isn't true.

50% was 'wittling' Ultra Necrozma down, that was literally the word they used. That means Complete form still was likely to come out.

Ultra Necrozma is stronger than 50%, but not to the point that 50% was unable to fight, just that it was heavily at a disadvantage.

50% should downscale, and 100% should be more comparable.

It's that simple honestly.

I thought that was what I was saying to a degree. If we're discussing the potential for 50%Garde to only be tier 6, then what part of that scales to a tier 3 form (with more substantive scaling from the scan / Manga panel alone, might I add) with nothing else supporting this outlier?

I should add that the fight between M2 Megas and Zyg50% were when M2 was in a weakened state (still waiting on a screenshot or something for when this happened, for the record). This would actually make sense, if we are looking to downscale a perfectly healthy Zygarde 50% this way (again, M2's 3-C+ peak in either Mega form is something we're still disputing if Shadow forms are considered 'more powerful' but still in the same tier / AP range).

 

[Arceus0x]

Ou shut up with that condescending attitude when you're the one spewing arceus knows what. Oh wait! My nickname's arceus, and i still don't know what it is you are spewing!

I tried being nice but screw it, I'm playing hard.

Your argument is unbased on absolutely anything. You admit that you haven't read the manga, you haven't seen the scans, you did no research into any of the blogs and now you are asking us to provide scans while you call our points irrelevant, despite them being based on actual available info.

The only thing that makes sense out of everything you said is that the AP explanations suck and need rework so they make more sense.

Alright now that i got that off of my chest let me give you a better example.

Solgaleo and Lunala together can give enough energy to a drained base Necrozma to turn him into Ultra Necrozma (based on the scans found here) without losing all of their energy.

We see both in game and anime (and manga im pretty sure) Solgaleo/Lunala clashing with base necrozma for a bit before getting their ass handed to them by Necrozma without too much effort.

Zygarde, on the other hand, did way better than them as he fought against UN for a while, UN being notably > base self.

Calling it "outlier" because it happened once is dumb as there's literally nothing suggesting that 50% Zygarde shouldn't scale when it officially fought against necrozma and it was there in the game as well as it felt that UBs are a threat.

Out of all the stuff you said I'd argue that we should just buff 10% Zygarde. It's a lot more reasonable than nerfing half the legendaries because of this one form being low 6-B via lacking feats.

 

[Joycap]

Your argument is unbased on absolutely anything. You admit that you haven't read the manga, you haven't seen the scans, you did no research into any of the blogs and now you are asking us to provide scans while you call our points irrelevant, despite them being based on actual available info.


Solgaleo and Lunala together can give enough energy to a drained base Necrozma to turn him into Ultra Necrozma (based on the scans found here) without losing all of their energy.

Much like with Sinnoh Legends being tier 2, I'm not arguing that the Alolan Legends aren't Tier 3 (partly because Ultra warp, the power of Z moves and UltNec stand on their own merits). Also if you were willing to hand over those scans that could have been used to strengthen AP arguments, instead of treating me like I'm the brain of Britain, I don't think we'd be here. You're on no higher moral ground my guy.

We see both in game and anime (and manga im pretty sure) Solgaleo/Lunala clashing with base necrozma for a bit before getting their ass handed to them by Necrozma without too much effort

If I recall correctly, Necrozma was switching between fused forms when it was actually in Alola. It never Ultra Burst until it was back in the Poipole home ground in Ultra Space. The intent not to get assimilated was what made fighting it awkward, so it was never an AP issue.

Zygarde, on the other hand, did way better than them as he fought against UN for a while, UN being notably > base self.

That's a point, we haven't really established a proper base for Necrozma that isn't the 3-C - 3-A range just copy-pasted haphazardly. Any takers?

Regardless, you still haven't disproven why 50% scales to 100% this way when if that were the case, Complete form would never need to be there (not to mention it means keeping 50 and 100 in the same range). For my money, that's just lazy writing, and a betrayal of author intent.

Calling it "outlier" because it happened once is dumb as there's literally nothing suggesting that 50% Zygarde shouldn't scale when it officially fought against necrozma and it was there in the game as well as it felt that UBs are a threat.

Where was this? The end credits? Nothing about it's body language suggested that it sensed the Ultra Beasts (not to mention it'd mean nothing to anyone who can turn their heads 45 degrees upwards and see a giant wormhole in the sky. Just a thought).

Out of all the stuff you said I'd argue that we should just buff 10% Zygarde. It's a lot more reasonable than nerfing half the legendaries because of this one form being low 6-B via lacking feats.

And I shouldn't need to tell you how that's completely missing the point of this thread. If you can't define bases for multi-form legends you just copy-pasted the same range to, then like hell you're going to find somewhere else to put Zydoge without feats to cite.

 

[XitSign]

Ooooooor, hear me out. 100% came out because 50% was 'wittling' Ultra Necrozma, meaning 50% was weaker, but could still do damage.

I have no idea why or how this is remaining such a sticking point.

The weaker form did worse in the fight than the stronger form, but they both could fight. That's entirely logical. Nothing conflicts with a situation that simple, and you really need to reach to make it a 'betrayal of author intent'.

The scans of it happening are literally the entire justification section on 50% key, I'm confused how we're still here.

 

[Joycap]

Ooooooor, hear me out. 100% came out because 50% was 'wittling' Ultra Necrozma, meaning 50% was weaker, but could still do damage.

I have no idea why or how this is remaining such a sticking point.

The weaker form did worse in the fight than the stronger form, but they both could fight. That's entirely logical. Nothing conflicts with a situation that simple, and you really need to reach to make it a 'betrayal of author intent'.

The scans of it happening are literally the entire justification section on 50% key, I'm confused how we're still here.

In that case, where would you put 50%?