The Super Saiyan Speed Multiplier

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Let's please try to keep this civil, both sides.

 

[SirAlex09]

And there's the rub.

The SSJ form clearly doesn't work like the Kaio-ken. It's not "forcing" a full multiplication of all Goku's stats like the Kaio-ken does. It doesn't put extreme strain on his body. Even Akira Toriyama said that he felt that SSJ was a 10x multiplier, and that "50x" was an exaggeration.

He said it was his feeling when he first drew it which means when he developed SSJ as a concept which was probably done prior to Goku using 20x Kaioken in the manga.

"However at that time, when it became Super Saiyajin, (I learned that) it was seen as a force variation of approximately 50 fold but, it was somewhat exaggerated, huh. As for the feeling of author, I sincerely believe that I imagined (was drawing) originally with the sensation of a change of about 10 fold the present moment." https://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=39087


Also,you do realise they have an editor right?

Secondly another alternative translation:
"My feeling as the creator is that, while drawing it, I felt that it was about a 10-fold change from what it was up to that point." So Kaioken 20* 10= SSJ 200x multiplier? Gotta make a 200x AP multiplier CRT then

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

That honestly makes more sense than SSJ being a 10 times multiplier

 

[SirAlex09]

supporters disagree against this, yet it still being implimneted, it just shows that regular users, that happens to be knowledgeable about a verse are totally useless, their opinions is less than that of a staff that doesn't know about a verse, it just goes from "Well the actually knowledge users agree/disagree, we should trust thier opinions" to "two staffs agreed/disagreed, we should trust their opinions" and the worst offenders is, the staff being knowledgeable or not knowledgeable doesn't matter, as long as there are staffs, which just turns the entire thing into popularity status contest.

Let's not forget all the Staff members that aren't even knowledgeable and still agreed with AKM-sama's CRT lmfao

 

[ZillertheBucko]

I'm going to be very blunt, even if there are mods who think super saiyan not being a 50 times speed boost makes sense, it doesn't change the fact that this is a criminal offense of logic and should have never gotten further than the first page, and it's somewhat insulting that this going through is a possibility
the counterarguments are more rock solid than dwayne johnson, and yet this is still going because unknowledgable people are accepting this crt and because they have the authority it is simply ok. It's almost as if there's no point in being here if exclusively the admins have a say and the normal people are here just for some kind of time killing

Let's not forget all the Staff members that aren't even knowledgeable and still agreed with AKM-sama's CRT lmfao

this is annoying

 

[Veronica]

SSJ being 10 times is trolling and shouldn't even be taken seriously

 

[ZillertheBucko]

I'm going to be very blunt, even if there are mods who think super saiyan not being a 50 times speed boost makes sense, it doesn't change the fact that this is a criminal offense of logic and should have never gotten further than the first page, and it's somewhat insulting that this going through is a possibility
the counterarguments are more rock solid than dwayne johnson, and yet this is still going because unknowledgable people are accepting this crt and because they have the authority it is simply ok. It's almost as if there's no point in being here if exclusively the admins have a say and the normal people are here just for some kind of time killing

this is annoying

And no I'm not just saying all this to be a whiny dragonball wanking baby, or to be "uncivil", because as you can see:

Outside of all of this, the databooks also use the term "battle power" when referencing the multiplier, with "battle power" being the measurement of the size of one's Ki (i.e., their Power Level), which influences all of their combat abilities.

the argument quite literally ended here.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

I'd also like to request that if possible, we should bring more staff that are knowledgable on dragon ball to participate in the thread, as well as asking that some other mods that haven't popped up here in a while should reconsider their own votes

 

[SirAlex09]

Agree with the OP (10): AKM sama, Damage, Ovens, Confluctor, Zamasu Chan, Maverick, Antvasima

QuasiYuri​

ZetaMarishi

Malomtek​

Disagreement (28) : Medeus, Gilad, Stefano, Orange, Null, Arslan, Therefir, KLOL , SirAlex09, Vizer04

Fastestthingalive50​

FluffyCreatureZ​

Shadyboi0​

BetterThanYou​

Chariot190​

LeSupremeKing1​

Ottavio_Merluzzo​

GodlyCharmander​

EmilioRory10​

ZillertheBucko​

Maskofthedragon​

Elizhaa​

Planck69​

Zencha9​

Dagoth_OwO​

thetechmaster36​

Rez

Rikimarox2​

Neutral: Nierre LephyrTheRevanchist

​

Since the CRT is probably going to be accepted...

 

[Vietthai96]

Why there are two of me one in agreement, one neutral????

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Why there are two of me one in agreement, one neutral????

because the neutrals need friends

 

[SirAlex09]

Why there are two of me one in agreement, one neutral????

Shadow clone jutsu?
(fixed it)

 

[Antvasima]

Given that 5 staff members disagree, we don't seem to have sufficient consensus to apply this yet.

 

[Dagoth_OwO]

Why there are two of me one in agreement, one neutral????

You're lucky. I'm not even on the list

 

[SirAlex09]

Given that 5 staff members disagree, we don't seem to have sufficient consensus to apply this yet.

4 If i am not wrong and to be fair: They only said they leaning towards disagree and didn't write anthing after that.

 

[Antvasima]

If each side explains their arguments in a single post and easy to understand manner, I can send a notification to more staff members to help out though.

 

[SirAlex09]

You're lucky. I'm not even on the list

Do you agree or disagree?

 

[ZillertheBucko]

If each side explains their arguments in a single post and easy to understand manner, I can send a notification to more staff members to help out though.

ok that's reasonable enough

Outside of all of this, the databooks also use the term "battle power" when referencing the multiplier, with "battle power" being the measurement of the size of one's Ki (i.e., their Power Level), which influences all of their combat abilities.

here is pretty much the easiest way to put it

 

[Antvasima]

4 If i am not wrong and to be fair: They only said they leaning towards disagree and didn't write anthing after that.

AKM, me, Damage, Ovens, Confluctor, and QuasiYuri are listed as for.

Medeus, Therefir, KLOL506, Planck69, and Elizhaa are listed as against.

 

[Vietthai96]

Shadow clone jutsu?
(fixed it)

Just remove me entirely, while i did agree not solid x50 speed, it is still likely, and SSJ obviously far above x20 of Kaioken. That why i propose at least [insert speed], likely [insert speed]

 

[Malomtek]

No that tells nothing. That just means Akira was wrong, as his statement literally contradicts his entire story. No matter how you try to twist it, a 10 times multiplier < 20 times multiplier. You

It really doesn't contradict anything, you just want it to because you're hyperfixated on multipliers of ki numbers for whatever reason.

The reason why FPSSJ Goku was stronger than SSJG3 Trunks and Vegeta was because his base power was much higher than both of them

Pure headcanon that neither the manga or any databook ever backed up.

It's clear that what made MSSJ special was its level of control, not that it was tied to Goku's super-duper strong base power level.

Headcanon. And how it can be a 10 times multiplier

A possibility backed up by principles shown within the very series, not just "headcanon". Stop being obtuse.

Vegeta had a power level of 18,000. Goku with kaioken times 2 was 16,000 and with Kaioken times 3 was 24,000. So obviously he overpowered Vegeta with KK3 but not with KK2.

Also, Post-Zenkai Vegeta had a power level of 24,000 as well, and he easily killed both Kiwi, who is equal to Saiyan Saga Vegeta, and Dodoria, who was stronger than Vegeta before

Why do you people keep bringing up power level numbers as if they mean anything here? And this only helps my point anyway. There is literally only a 1.333... times difference between 18,000 and 24,000, yet Goku completely overpowered Vegeta with Kaio-ken x 3.

This means the Kaio-ken's increases are not as linear (or exponential, or logarithmic, etc.) as you would like to think they are.

That is because the kaioken is extremely draining and dangerous to use. If someone uses it incorrectly, or too long, their body will break from the strain. This is why it's less effective with each usage, and becomes more dangerous to use

So exactly what I said then, with the sole exception of the "battle fatigue" stuff.

Goku was relatively fresh when he used Kaiomen times 10 and was still handily beaten by Frieza.

But I'm talking about Kaio-ken x 20 here, so that's a moot point.

Besides, what you're saying got nothing to do to the multipliers. The reason why it might not be as effective (which until you prove it is the case, is your headcanon), is because Goku's base power weakens when he gets drained, so multiplier can only do so much if the base power is weak

You mean, like, battle fatigue? Where as Goku's ki amount dwindles, his ability to control ki also dwindles in tandem?

Why do you say something that directly links into the concept of battle fatigue, and then say it's my "headcanon"? Stop being pedantic.

Not really. The multiplier is there, but it can only do so much when base power is lacking. This is why Goku couldn't beat Frieza even with KK20, because his Base form was too weak for the multiplier to make up for it

It could also be that as he got too battle fatigued, his ability to control ki suffered as well. One cannot honestly assert that a beaten-up warrior has just as fine ki control as a fresh warrior in Dragon Ball.

With the Kaio-ken's effectiveness being intrinsically tied to ki control, it also means the effectiveness of Kaio-ken in itself suffered too.

He said it was his feeling when he first drew it which means when he developed SSJ as a concept which was probably done prior to Goku using 20x Kaioken in the manga.

"However at that time, when it became Super Saiyajin, (I learned that) it was seen as a force variation of approximately 50 fold but, it was somewhat exaggerated, huh. As for the feeling of author, I sincerely believe that I imagined (was drawing) originally with the sensation of a change of about 10 fold the present moment." https://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=39087


Also,you do realise they have an editor right?

Secondly another alternative translation:
"My feeling as the creator is that, while drawing it, I felt that it was about a 10-fold change from what it was up to that point." So Kaioken 20* 10= SSJ 200x multiplier? Gotta make a 200x AP multiplier CRT then

So Akira Toriyama originally imagining SSJ as a 10x boost, and feeling that its 50x boost was an "exaggeration", was "probably" because SSJ was conceived before Kaio-ken x 20, yet it fully incorporates Kaio-ken x 20 when it comes to making an extreme interpretation of an alternative translation, an interpretation that flies in the face of Akira Toriyama already saying he originally felt a 50x multiplier was an "exaggeration"?

What can I say about this other than it being an example of a grossly selective reading comprehension?

 

[ZillertheBucko]

It really doesn't contradict anything, you just want it to because you're hyperfixated on multipliers of ki numbers for whatever reason.


Pure headcanon that neither the manga or any databook ever backed up.

It's clear that what made MSSJ special was its level of control, not that it was tied to Goku's super-duper strong base power level.



A possibility backed up by principles shown within the very series, not just "headcanon". Stop being obtuse.


Why do you people keep bringing up power level numbers as if they mean anything here? And this only helps my point anyway. There is literally only a 1.333... times difference between 18,000 and 24,000, yet Goku completely overpowered Vegeta with Kaio-ken x 3.

This means the Kaio-ken's increases are not as linear (or exponential, or logarithmic, etc.) as you would like to think they are.


So exactly what I said then, with the sole exception of the "battle fatigue" stuff.


But I'm talking about Kaio-ken x 20 here, so that's a moot point.



You mean, like, battle fatigue? Where as Goku's ki amount dwindles, his ability to control ki also dwindles in tandem?

Why do you say something that directly links into the concept of battle fatigue, and then say it's my "headcanon"? Stop being pedantic.



It could also be that as he got too battle fatigued, his ability to control ki suffered as well. One cannot honestly assert that a beaten-up warrior has just as fine ki control as a fresh warrior in Dragon Ball.

With the Kaio-ken's effectiveness being intrinsically tied to ki control, it also means the effectiveness of Kaio-ken in itself suffered too.



So Akira Toriyama originally imagining SSJ as a 10x boost, and feeling that its 50x boost was an "exaggeration", was "probably" because SSJ was conceived before Kaio-ken x 20, yet it fully incorporates Kaio-ken x 20 when it comes to making an extreme interpretation of an alternative translation, an interpretation that flies in the face of Akira Toriyama already saying he originally felt a 50x multiplier was an "exaggeration"?

What can I say about this other than it being an example of a grossly selective reading comprehension?

sorry but I'm just gonna have to

Nullflowerblush said:
Outside of all of this, the databooks also use the term "battle power" when referencing the multiplier, with "battle power" being the measurement of the size of one's Ki (i.e., their Power Level), which influences all of their combat abilities.

 

[Dagoth_OwO]

Do you agree or disagree?

Disagree

 

[SirAlex09]

So Akira Toriyama originally imagining SSJ as a 10x boost, and feeling that its 50x boost was an "exaggeration", was "probably" because SSJ was conceived before Kaio-ken x 20, yet it fully incorporates Kaio-ken x 20 when it comes to making an extreme interpretation of an alternative translation, an interpretation that flies in the face of Akira Toriyama already saying he originally felt a 50x multiplier was an "exaggeration"?

What can I say about this other than it being an example of a grossly selective reading comprehension?

Funny that you say that. It seems that not everyone is in possession of the cognitive abilitiy to detect sarcasm. I wrote it in the case that you refuse the explaination I provided. Because that would have been the alternative.

Secondly Toriyama is known to have a bad memory. It could have been the case that when asked the question concerning the multiplier that he thought that it was 50x* Kaioken x20 instead of 50 x base when the multiplier was established

 

[Malomtek]

At this point, AKM is literally ignoring everything in order to justify his headcanon about Ssj only being 20x in speed or not being 50x on speed.

@AKM sama I think you need to see this.

Funny that you say that. It seems that not everyone is in possession of the cognitive abilitiy to detect sarcasm

I didn't see your most recent edit before I posted. And your point was still invalid regardless, "sarcasm" or otherwise.

 

[Orange]

Akira feelings ssj as only 10x goes against his full work.
It's one dubious statement vs tons of showings, feats and statements from withing the manga and the guidebooks that are approved by toriyama.
Gee, I wonder which one should we go with?

 

[Vietthai96]

@AKM sama I think you need to see this.

What you gonna do then, try to ban Orange to prove your argument being right, this is very low-content "argument"

 

[ZillertheBucko]

@AKM sama I think you need to see this.

silence speaks louder than words
no comment

 

[SirAlex09]

I didn't see your most recent edit before I posted. And your point was still invalid regardless, "sarcasm" or otherwise.

I wrote it in the case that you refuse the explaination I provided. Because that would have been the alternative.

Secondly Toriyama is known to have a bad memory. It could have been the case that when asked the question concerning the multiplier that he thought that it was 50x* Kaioken x20 instead of 50 x base when the multiplier was established.

Sorry I edited my answer. He is known for getting confused easily and getting things mixed up. Still it was his initial feeling as an artist. Nothing more, nothing less. He felt that it was exaggerated not that it is still exaggerated

 

[ZillertheBucko]

I thought that araki was the only manga creator with bad memory

 

[Malomtek]

sorry but I'm just gonna have to

Not all equally, not all the same.

This thread already went over this, a dozen times over.

What you gonna do then, try to ban Orange to prove your argument being right, this is very low-content "argument"

No. I'm leading AKM to a post that displayed clear hostilities towards her after she explicitly warned the people in this thread to cut it out.

And your own post (as well as the latest two from @ZillertheBucko) weren't very "high-content" in themselves either.

Sorry I edited my answer. He is known for getting confused easily. Still it was his initial feeling as an Artist. Nothing more, nothing less. He felt that it was exaggerated not that it is still exaggerated

His initial feeling, yes, but still important in describing how, even from the beginning of its conception, SSJ worked differently from Kaio-ken.

Your hypothetical "could have been" is also very improbable, considering that Akira merely mentioned the 50 fold multiplier in general, without any add-ons.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Stop targeting people Malomtek. That's really low.

 

[SirAlex09]

His initial feeling, yes, but still important in describing how, even from the beginning of its conception, SSJ worked differently from Kaio-ken.

Prove?

Your hypothetical "could have been" is also very improbable, considering that Akira merely mentioned the 50 fold multiplier in general, without any add-on

He said and I quote "a 10 fold from what it was up to that point". Kaioken x20 was his peak. If we go strictly by his words it is a 200x increase. Furthermore there are numerous instances where he contradicts himself and makes up stuff and concepts in interviews only to throw them out of the window. So I wouldn't be surprised If he had a brain fart here as well

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Not all equally, not all the same.

20 times faster goku = 50% frieza speed< 100% freiza speed = 40 times faster than base goku < ssj goku. in other words is very very very very much so a common sense thing to assume the 50 times refers to speed as well

 

[ZillertheBucko]

I truly truly deeply apologize.....I am so sorry

 

[SirAlex09]

Stop targeting people Malomtek. That's really low

No one is though. Orange is criticising AKM and Malomtek is pissed fsr

 

[ZillertheBucko]

I truly truly deeply apologize.....I am so sorry

about the fact that you cannot do basic math

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

No one is though. Orange is criticising AKM and Malomtek is pissed fsr

He was critisizing Malomtek, not Orange

 

[SirAlex09]

about the fact that you cannot do basic math

I am dead XD

 

[Orange]

Not all equally, not all the same.

This thread already went over this, a dozen times over.

No. I'm leading AKM to a post that displayed clear hostilities towards her after she explicitly warned the people in this thread to cut it out.

And your own post (as well as the latest two from @ZillertheBucko) weren't very "high-content" in themselves either.



His initial feeling, yes, but still important in describing how, even from the beginning of its conception, SSJ worked differently from Kaio-ken.

Your hypothetical "could have been" is also very improbable, considering that Akira merely mentioned the 50 fold multiplier in general, without any add-ons.

You keep saying that kk works differently than ssj when both....do the same thing? They amplifying your battle potential/ki, and in result it amplifies your stat. It's literally on the page that increasing your ki increases your stats, which both ssj and kk do, but in a quite different yet still similar manner-