The Self-Reference Engine Introduction Thread (Actually a cosmology discussion)

[Lewis]

I'll be following this thread.

 

[Cat275]

I'll be following this thread.

You probably won't see much at the moment.

This thread is pretty much dead.

 

[Antvasima]

Has that person disputed any of the tiering-relevant excerpts as being mistranslated? From what I've seen, they haven't elaborated on what exactly is the translation's mistake here.

See here please:

Antvasima

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Antvasima]

See here please:

Antvasima

vsbattles.fandom.com

@Ultima_Reality

 

[MrOMG]

The number of hierarchies is not specified but it is known that there are several hierarchies that lead to even higher hierarchies
If seeing a high 1-A multiverse as a dream or a fiction is enough for tier 0 then the beings in the higher echelons are in tier 0 and they are in turn fictional characters in echelons even higher up and these echelons create hierarchies

The number of hierarchies must be equal to the Theorems, that is, the progression of cardinal numbers.

 

[Cat275]

The number of hierarchies must be equal to the Theorems, that is, the progression of cardinal numbers.

If you were referring to the further hierarchies it's rather unknown.

 

[MrOMG]

If you were referring to the further hierarchies it's rather unknown.

It's simple, it's due to the evolution of evolution itself. At first an infinite multiverse appeared, then an infinite number of dimensions, higher dimensions, an infinite hierarchy, and then further hierarchies. This principle was shown on the example of Theorems, at first there was a limited number of them, then infinite, then the progression of cardinal numbers already began. This was talked about almost in the middle of the book during the war between the Giant Corps of Knowledge.

 

[Cat275]

It's simple, it's due to the evolution of evolution itself. At first an infinite multiverse appeared, then an infinite number of dimensions, higher dimensions, an infinite hierarchy, and then further hierarchies. This principle was shown on the example of Theorems, at first there was a limited number of them, then infinite, then the progression of cardinal numbers already began. This was talked about almost in the middle of the book during the war between the Giant Corps of Knowledge.

Can i see the scan of the further hierarchies being stated to be infinite? We don't assume things like this so i'd love to see a scan.

 

[MrOMG]

Can i see the scan of the further hierarchies being stated to be infinite? We don't assume things like this so i'd love to see a scan.

All the quote you need is there, and it's a quote about the Theorem.

 

[Cat275]

All the quote you need is there, and it's a quote about the Theorem.

Alright nice.

Edit:bro i thought it was you talking about stuff at 1st, didn't realise it was a scan.

 

[Antvasima]

So what are the conclusions here so far?

 

[Timeless]

So what are the conclusions here so far?

It seems like Ultima's tiering of Multiverse = High 1-A, Hierarchy of Knowledge = Layers of High 1-A, Further hierarchies = 0, and Self-Reference ENGINE = 0 is the agreed version. There has yet to be an opponent.

 

[Lewis]

It seems like Ultima's tiering of Multiverse = High 1-A, Hierarchy of Knowledge = Layers of High 1-A, Further hierarchies = 0, and Self-Reference ENGINE = 0 is the agreed version. There has yet to be an opponent.

looking great ,accept

 

[Antvasima]

First we need to find out if the translation is correct or not, based on the comments from the member fluent in Japanese that I linked to above, and then we need input from some of our most knowledgeable members regarding our highest tiers.

 

[EndlessWords]

The number of hierarchies must be equal to the Theorems, that is, the progression of cardinal numbers.

That's what I thought too but since no one mentioned it I thought I might be wrong, thanks for your opinion it seems logical

 

[Lewis]

Bump

 

[Cat275]

So assuming the large cardinal progression is true would it be more akin to a Cardinal K amount of hierarchy or Axiom schema of replacement level?

(I think the latter is more accurate but asking for more opinions)

 

[Lewis]

So assuming the large cardinal progression is true would it be more akin to a Cardinal K amount of hierarchy or Axiom schema of replacement level?

(I think the latter is more accurate but asking for more opinions)

I agree to use replacement.

 

[Antvasima]

First we need to find out if the translation is correct or not, based on the comments from the member fluent in Japanese that I linked to above, and then we need input from some of our most knowledgeable members regarding our highest tiers.

@Ultima_Reality @DontTalkDT @First_Witch @Elizhaa @KingPin0422 @Qawsedf234 @Pain_to12 @Agnaa

Would you be willing to help out here please?

 

[Agnaa]

Sorry but I am not interested in evaluating this.

 

[PrinceofPein]

I will look through it but I can’t make any promises since the verse is kind of vague and i don’t think it has much substance for a page aside the tiers and possible some abilities

 

[Antvasima]

Sorry but I am not interested in evaluating this.

Okay. No problem.

I will look through it but I can’t make any promises since the verse is kind of vague and i don’t think it has much substance for a page aside the tiers and possible some abilities

Thank you for helping out.

 

[EndlessWords]

I will look through it but I can’t make any promises since the verse is kind of vague and i don’t think it has much substance for a page aside the tiers and possible some abilities

I created a profile for the verse on a wiki and I think the characters have a lot of abilities, I can provide the many screenshots I took while going through the chapters several times (if necessary).

 

[Elizhaa]

@Ultima_Reality @DontTalkDT @First_Witch @Elizhaa @KingPin0422 @Qawsedf234 @Pain_to12 @Agnaa

Would you be willing to help out here please?

Ultima's proposed tier seems fine to me, assuming the current translations are fine.
@Jasonsith might be able to help with the translations verified the regarding the text like the ladder which could make the hierarchy have an higher tier if true.

 

[KingPin0422]

I don't necessarily agree with Ultima's tiering. The multiverse being High 1-A is fine (provided the translation is accurate since that's being contested), but my point of contention is with his tiering of the hierarchies beyond it. In my opinion, something which is inaccessible to an infinite High 1-A hierarchy (a.k.a. the unidentified hierarchy above the hierarchy of logic) should still be High 1-A. Specifically, it should be what is called a "1-inaccessible cardinal," for which I will quote Cantor's Attic to explain:

A cardinal κ is 1-inaccessible if it is inaccessible and a limit of inaccessible cardinals. In other words, κ is 1-inaccessible if κ is the κth inaccessible cardinal, that is, if κ is a fixed point in the enumeration of all inaccessible cardinals. Equivalently, κ is 1-inaccessible if Vκ is a universe and satisfies the universe axiom.

More generally, κ is α-inaccessible if it is inaccessible and for every β<α it is a limit of β-inaccessible cardinals.

The Self-Reference ENGINE could still be tier 0, though, since all of the above is just a tiny subset of an infinite collection of stories that it encompasses, while being utterly nonexistent and transcendent over everything.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out. Further translations have been posted by the Japanese reader of the work in question. I would appreciate if you all try to evaluate them:

Antvasima

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[EndlessWords]

If I understand correctly, according to the original version the progression of large cardinal numbers will not stop at the inaccessible cardinal but will reach the extreme top of the hierarchy of large cardinal numbers
So if I am not mistaken the multiverse would not be high 1-A but extremely high in the boundless tier

However I don't know if it is necessary to have explicit mentions of the different cardinals or if the mention of the progression to the extrême top of the large cardinal numbers is a sufficient proof

 

[Cat275]

If I understand correctly, according to the original version the progression of large cardinal numbers will not stop at the inaccessible cardinal but will reach the extreme top of the hierarchy of large cardinal numbers
So if I am not mistaken the multiverse would not be high 1-A but extremely high in the boundless tier

Uhh no it's kinda vague and even with that we have many types of cardinals after inaccessible but below mahlo.
(Beta inaccessible,Alpha inaccessible,Hyper-Inaccessible,Hyper-Hyper-Inaccessible,Lambda inaccessible weakly versions of this, normal strongly and weakly inaccessible,inaccessible limit of inaccessible,K inaccessible,Hyper-Inaccessible K etc are examples.

Regular sized or Limit K and more can also probably be considered as large cardinals.)

 

[EndlessWords]

Uhh no it's kinda vague and even with that we have many types of cardinals after inaccessible but below mahlo.
(Beta inaccessible,Alpha inaccessible,Hyper-Inaccessible,Hyper-Hyper-Inaccessible,Lambda inaccessible weakly versions of this, normal strongly and weakly inaccessible,inaccessible limit of inaccessible,K inaccessible,Hyper-Inaccessible K etc are examples.

Regular sized or Limit K and more can also probably be considered as large cardinals.)

But according to the person who read the Japanese version we are told about the extreme top of the great cardinal numbers, not one or two levels above but completely on top
I understand that this statement may seem exaggerated and if at the level of standards it is absolutely necessary that the cardinals are mentioned then that's fine with me, I just wanted to talk about the additional information and expose the possibilities

 

[Cat275]

But according to the person who read the Japanese version we are told about the extreme top of the great cardinal numbers, not one or two levels above but completely on top

The said inaccessible can still be the one applied and still be below mahlo.
(Or maybe we can possibly reach the types of mahlo but probably not qualitively beyond those types atleast not that much)

I understand that this statement may seem exaggerated and if at the level of standards it is absolutely necessary that the cardinals are mentioned then that's fine with me, I just wanted to talk about the additional information and expose the possibilities

Ok, understandable.

 

[EndlessWords]

The said inaccessible can still be the one applied and still be below mahlo.
(Or maybe we can possibly reach the types of mahlo but probably not qualitively beyond those types atleast not that much)

I see (the level of the multiverse seems difficult to determine precisely but we'll see if other users have something to add or if we get new information).

 

[Timeless]

But according to the person who read the Japanese version we are told about the extreme top of the great cardinal numbers, not one or two levels above but completely on top
I understand that this statement may seem exaggerated and if at the level of standards it is absolutely necessary that the cardinals are mentioned then that's fine with me, I just wanted to talk about the additional information and expose the possibilities

That is an extremely vague statement.

 

[Cat275]

Alright i checked the new info on translations and i saw this:

maybe mean 0=1 or something like this

hope it can help you

know what this means people? If this statement(the 0=1) is true we can assume they have this guy:

Reinhardt cardinal - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Which would be safe to assume it is infinite layers to 0 since in the rank-into-rank section there is an endless hierarchy of same axioms(Axiom 13) that are qualitively beyond mahlo.

 

[Cat275]

Anyways mr translator since it looks like your checking this thread i request you to translate the whole or some more of the graph of large cardinals you posted if you could, i thank you in advance.
(since you only mentioned the 0=1 part)

 

[Lewis]

I'm quite confused by this schematic. Is there any text that conveys the use of axiom l3 (rank into rank) ??

 

[EndlessWords]

I think there is a misunderstanding, the graph he sent is not from SRE but from an article by a mathematician it seems

By using this article he shows that the Japanese term used in SRE can only refer to large cardinals like Mahlo and nothing below because the mathematician in the article also uses the same term to describe specific cardinals like Mahlo or the largest

 

[Cat275]

I'm quite confused by this schematic. Is there any text that conveys the use of axiom l3 (rank into rank) ??

Well no but reinhardt is above rank-into-rank, in the use of strength consistency.

(Every I3 cardinal κ has another I3 cardinal above it and is an n-huge cardinal for every n<ω.)

Edit:Also i remember an outdated graph of something simillar to that japanese graph which the order is bassically like this in words

0=1> Axiom I0-13 > n-huge > superhuge > etc, and such so just gonna wait for the translator or something.

 

[Cat275]

I think there is a misunderstanding, the graph he sent is not from SRE but from an article by a mathematician it seems

By using this article he shows that the Japanese term used in SRE can only refer to large cardinals like Mahlo and nothing below because the mathematician in the article also uses the same term to describe specific cardinals like Mahlo or the largest

Oof welp hope that's not the case.
(I wan't a tier 0 character or verse here that is above pre-degraded manifold.)

 

[EndlessWords]

Oof welp hope that's not the case.
(I wan't a tier 0 character or verse here that is above pre-degraded manifold.)

So if the term used in SRE only mentions specific large cardinals like Mahlo and more, the multiverse will necessarily be boundless right?
(I think you don't have to worry because it must be hard to find a verse that exceeds the boundless tier of Manifold before its downgrade)

 

[Cat275]

So if the term used in SRE only mentions specific large cardinals like Mahlo and more, the multiverse will necessarily be boundless right?

Probably.

(I think you don't have to worry because it must be hard to find a verse that exceeds the boundless tier of Manifold before its downgrade)

I mean if the verse has 0=1 then it would automatically be beyond pre degraded manifold.