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The Self-Reference Engine Introduction Thread (Actually a cosmology discussion)

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Pikaman said:
Idk enough about how tiers this high up even work so I’ll keep my input to a minimum but if language can describe the High 1-A characters and whatnot of the verse but it can’t describe this thing wouldn’t that put it above them? Or would being above three High 1-As not even be 0 lol
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So following this line of logic. A verse where it has something at its start as high 1A but then has something that can't be describe by language beyond that and has levels even beyond that. Excellent.
 
I’m assuming that’s a no then-

Ok, I’ll shut up about this now, enjoy doing whatever you’re gonna do
 
we should wait till Ultima replies again. he's probably the most knowledgeable on tier 0 stuff. I mean he upgraded Twin Peaks, and Cthulhu Mythos to tier 0.
 
Megaraptor149 said:
Even ultima itself uncertain about this
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Pretty sure the guy is only uncertain whether we should apply the transfinite theory in the multiverse as a scale.
(z theorem in the verse is whaf it's called it seems.)

Might have misinterpreted it though.
 
Cat said:
Pretty sure the guy is only uncertain whether we should apply the transfinite theory in the multiverse as a scale.
(z theorem in the verse is whaf it's called it seems.)

Might have misinterpreted it though.
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Ah yes, right that's part is
 
Ghost59 said:
I don't see how this isn't just high B1 or maybe low outer since one layer is above the structure of dimensions.

Maybe the creator is outer. As it is beyond everything.
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Should be outer or outer+ at best
And if we apply the transfinite theorem in the multiverse then all the hierarchies should be 1a+ and sre would also seem to have the same tier in this case.

So whether we apply the theorem or not it would seem to still have the same overall tier just a bit of changes in the basis of the cosmology and lower tiered characters.

(Though this is just my personal opinion.)
 
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Setsuna_tenma said:
the furthers hierarchies being above the 1A + one
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Pretty sure Aleph omega(baseline of 1a+)
Can still be extended to even bigger lengths and still be a small ordinal or cardinal.

There are small cardinals ordinal that are strictly greater than Aleph omega yet still below strongly inaccessible since it can't be obtain by normal extensions or operations thereof especially when it's a strong and weak limit cardinal i think the best bet is 1a+ or 1a+ possibly higher/high1a.

Though it does say they have large cardinals but it's wrong assume it is inaccessible especially when the method used is a successor ordinal method or something like that which is clearly not something you can use to reach Inaccessible.

(Also i didn't see any specification of the large cardinals here nor any context of it if it did specify what large cardinal it is.)

Though i might be wrong since i scale high1a inaccessible also this is only my general opinion.
(The strong or regular one.)

But in short or bassically
Transcending 1a+ doesn't automatically mean you are high1a without further context if you use inaccessible cardinal high1a....

Now i know this has a good chunk of context but not good enough to be considered inaccessible cardinal level nor be akin to it, if you use that as your standard high1a that is.

So yeah i just think that this verse is just a higher degree of 1a+ though again like i said maybe something like 1a+ possibly higher or high1a would be better or good enough.

Again this is just my opinion.

But for the mean time i guess it's just better to watch and observe right now.
 
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Cat said:
Pretty sure Aleph omega(baseline of 1a+)
Can still be extended to even bigger lengths and still be a small ordinal or cardinal.

There are small cardinals ordinal that are strictly greater than Aleph omega yet still below strongly inaccessible since it can't be obtain by normal extensions or operations thereof especially when it's a strong and weak limit cardinal i think the best bet is 1a+ or 1a+ possibly higher/high1a.

Though it does say they have large cardinals but it's wrong assume it is inaccessible especially when the method used is a successor ordinal method or something like that which is clearly not something you can use to reach Inaccessible.

(Also i didn't see any specification of the large cardinals here nor any context of it if it did specify what large cardinal it is.)

Though i might be wrong since i scale high1a inaccessible also this is only my general opinion.
(The strong or regular one.)

But in short or bassically
Transcending 1a+ doesn't automatically mean you are high1a without further context if you use inaccessible cardinal high1a....

Now i know this has a good chunk of context but not good enough to be considered inaccessible cardinal level nor be akin to it, if you use that as your standard high1a that is.

Though again this is just my opinion.
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Yeah if we used the inaccessible cardinals as a hard rule and not just an example then you would be right.

However, we don't since virtually no character would be that strong so we deem 2 hierarchies beyond infinite dimensional worlds as High 1-A as a close equivalent (or 3 general hierarchies).
 
CosmicWreck said:
Yeah if we used the inaccessible cardinals as a hard rule and not just an example then you would be right.

However, we don't since virtually no character would be that strong so we deem 2 hierarchies beyond infinite dimensional worlds as High 1-A as a close equivalent (or 3 general hierarchies).
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I see.

I guess it's less strict at the moment i should ask later for more clarification though since im pretty sure baseline high1a is inaccessible but i guess i agree with higher degree High1a scale if we are gonna be less strict in high1a and not use the strongly or regular inaccessible cardinal as the baseline of H1A.
 
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Cat said:
I guess it's less strict at the moment i should ask later for more clarification though since im pretty sure baseline high1a is inaccessible
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It is, but it's just a reference point, not a hard criteria.
Cat said:
but i guess i agree with higher degree High1a scale if we are gonna be less strict in high1a and not use the strongly or regular inaccessible cardinal as the baseline of H1A.
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I mean, I wouldn't mind but that'd probably mean downgrading a lot more verses than people would be comfortable with.
 
CosmicWreck said:
It is, but it's just a reference point, not a hard criteria.
Click to expand...
If im gonna be honest i don't see the verse having a reference point of inaccessible it just seems like a bigger extension of omega we are bassically just using the old system right now in this case but i guess i'll be fine with this at the moment.

(I don't really see any problems so yeah im ok with it at the moment i guess.)
 
Cat said:
If im gonna be honest i don't see the verse having a reference point of inaccessible it just seems like a bigger extension of omega we are bassically just using the old system right now in this case but i guess i'll be fine with this at the moment.
Click to expand...
Oh no, don't misunderstand me.

Inaccessible cardinals are used as a depiction of how a High 1-A character would appear in a mathematical or logical system in our universe. That's what I meant by reference point.

(Also, they did mention that the beings beyond the giant corpora of knowledge are above imagination where the imagination of the verse includes explicitly large cardinals, which contains a hierarchy that includes inaccessible cardinals and even the Woodin cardinals, which would honestly make even the giant corpora high into tier 0. I just didn't bother to take it into account since it's kind of NLF-like since, as you said they only measure omega extensions and I'm not too good at these kind of mathematical scalings of characters anyway).
 
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CosmicWreck said:
(Also, they did mention that the beings beyond the giant corpora of knowledge are above imagination where the imagination of the verse includes explicitly large cardinals, which contains a hierarchy that includes inaccessible cardinals and even the Woodin cardinals, which would honestly make even the giant corpora high into tier 0. I just didn't bother to take it into account since it's kind of NLF-like since, as you said they only measure omega extensions and I'm not too good at these kind of mathematical scalings of characters anyway).
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Like you said it is nlf, but anyways i really don't see any reference point of inaccessible, does transcending or having 3 or higher infinite hierarchies strictly greater than another can really count as a reference point of inaccessible? I personally don't think so but just asking.
(To make sure of something i guess.)
 
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Cat said:
Like you said it is nlf, but anyways i really don't see any reference point of inaccessible, does transcending or having 3 or higher infinite hierarchies strictly greater than another can really count as a reference point of inaccessible? I personally don't think so but just asking.
(To make sure of something i guess.)
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If you were to ask my opinion of it, it's not, it's just an arbitrary comparison. I mean, I don't remember the exact thread but I'm pretty sure the head honchos who revised the tiering system just decided the hierarchical transcendence would be the same as baseline High 1-A or (inaccessible cardinals) when Donttalk requested clarification on the matter.

There are a lot of arbitrary comparisons we use for these kind of high tier verses, like reality>fiction interaction being the same as uncountable infinity required for the formulation of higher coordinate spaces or that countably infinite dimensions exist, when they must by their very nature be uncountable infinite.

It's just something to make classification easier, it's not really an accurate portrayal. Personally speaking, the gap between 1-A is >every tier that came before so hierarchies should technically be meaningless at that point.
 
CosmicWreck said:
If you were to ask my opinion of it, it's not, it's just an arbitrary comparison. I mean, I don't remember the exact thread but I'm pretty sure the head honchos who revised the tiering system just decided the hierarchical transcendence would be the same as baseline High 1-A or (inaccessible cardinals) when Donttalk requested clarification on the matter.

There are a lot of arbitrary comparisons we use for these kind of high tier verses, like reality>fiction interaction being the same as uncountable infinity required for the formulation of higher coordinate spaces or that countably infinite dimensions exist, when they must by their very nature be uncountable infinite.

It's just something to make classification easier, it's not really an accurate portrayal. Personally speaking, the gap between 1-A is >every tier that came before so hierarchies should technically be meaningless at that point.
Click to expand...
Alright i guess transcending 1a+ works as high1a i do agree with that so that the system is less strict though i do disagree with transcending 1a+=inaccessible cardinal.
(even as a reference point if that's what you mean.)

Might have misinterpreted though.
 
Cat said:
Anyways just asking but isn't this revision a few years ago?
Click to expand...
Yes. It was a major overhaul of the old tiering system and is the one of the threads largely responsible for the way we do things now.

Cat said:
Alright i guess transcending 1a+ works as high1a i do agree with that so that the system is less strict though i do disagree with transcending 1a+=inaccessible cardinal.
(even as a reference point if that's what you mean.)
Click to expand...
Fair.
Cat said:
Might have misinterpreted though.
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Nah, I think you understand my meaning.
 
Cat said:
Should be outer or outer+ at best
And if we apply the transfinite theorem in the multiverse then all the hierarchies should be 1a+ and sre would also seem to have the same tier in this case.

So whether we apply the theorem or not it would seem to still have the same overall tier just a bit of changes in the basis of the cosmology and lower tiered characters.

(Though this is just my personal opinion.)
Click to expand...
I agree with this.
 
This is why writers should just give a free copy. Stop trying to make money off of this stuff. Get a real job.
 
Ghost59 said:
This is why writers should just give a free copy. Stop trying to make money off of this stuff. Get a real job.
Click to expand...
Writing is as much of a job as any other type of media and in fact influences almost all of them to some degree. Without writers we'd never have any good vocal music, games or movies. Stop trying to make your piracy some kind of illusory moral indication.
 
CosmicWreck said:
Writing is as much of a job as any other type of media and in fact influences almost all of them to some degree. Without writers we'd never have any good vocal music, games or movies. Stop trying to make your piracy some kind of illusory moral indication.
Click to expand...
Yet in this forum two were talking of such piracy.
 
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