The Self-Reference Engine Introduction Thread (Actually a cosmology discussion)

[EndlessWords]

Probably.

And if so, would you know what the level of Laplace's Demon and the hierarchy of demons would be?
Will the entire demon hierarchy be on the same layer of the boundless level?
The first demon has reached a higher layer that transcends the multiverse and sees the Giant Corpora of Knowledge as a dream in the same way that the Giant Corpora sees humans as a dream

James thinks this way of thinking is nothing more than the giant corpora of knowledge’s aspiration. They simply integrate too much leverage structure into their own thought processes. Of course, James is just like a dream of Yggdrasil’s. But if that were true, then Yggdrasil is a dream of the demon’s, and the demon must be a dream of a higher-level demon. It is Yggdrasil’s contention she should be able to pierce through this endless hierarchy of demons and reestablish space-time as a coherent bundle of meaning. That is because, according to Yggdrasil’s line of thinking, this thought is the sole interpretation capable of penetrating an infinite number of layers.

I mean if the verse has 0=1 then it would automatically be beyond pre degraded manifold.

I see, perhaps in little known novels by mathematicians

 

[Cat275]

And if so, would you know what the level of Laplace's Demon and the hierarchy of demons would be?
Toute la hiérarchie des démons sera-t-elle sur la même couche du niveau illimité ?
The first demon has reached a higher layer that transcends the multiverse and sees the Giant Corpora of Knowledge as a dream in the same way that the Giant Corpora sees humans as a dream

Wouldn't it be infinite layers to 0 with the endless hierarchy of demons?

 

[EndlessWords]

Wouldn't it be infinite layers to 0 with the endless hierarchy of demons?

I had thought about it but I doubted because I felt it was "too powerful".
If seeing a boundless layer as a dream is enough to be a layer above, then I guess the infinite hierarchy of demons reaches an infinite level of layers in the boundless tier, it would be so abused !

 

[Cat275]

I had thought about it but I doubted because I felt it was "too powerful".
If seeing a boundless layer as a dream is enough to be a layer above, then I guess the infinite hierarchy of demons reaches an infinite level of layers in the boundless tier, it would be so abused !

I mean there are cardinals that ain't accepted as inf layers to 0 i think, despite those cardinals having a inf hierarchy above mahlo.

(And the difference in one layer of that hierarchy is already quite bigger than just r>f or any successor aleph difference or anything like that or so whatnot since the gap of large cardinals (atleast the specific ones) will always become progressively bigger and even with this you can even create a mahlo limit of mahlo limit and such to even bigger mahlo's or a endless hierarchy of progressively bigger mahlo, inaccessibles, and even bigger gap difference in size or strength consistency and different types of them and still be below many or certain large cardinals at maybe close or around the mid or top tiers.)

But nonetheless this is inf layers to 0 assuming the verse has mahlo.
(Or atleast immeasurable)

 

[Timeless]

It doesn't seem like this thread isn't getting much attention from staff

 

[Cat275]

It doesn't seem like this thread isn't getting much attention from staff

I mean you can either contact one or just let it die a little.

(And just revive it later)

 

[Cat275]

Including but not limited to inaccessible cardinal ，mahlo including，compact cardinal, measurable cardinal ，huge cardinals .......

if im understanding this correctly and if this statement of the translator is true would it include the superhuge, supercompactness, hypercompact and n-huge cardinals?

(This cardinals are assumed to be stronger than woodin)

 

[EndlessWords]

Doctor129 has given new information and clarified the previous point, he also specifies that the author of SRE has a great knowledge in mathematics and that he has written novels on set theory and also on the big cardinals
I would have liked to post a screen of the message directly here but I don't know if it is allowed

 

[Lewis]

It's admirable.

 

[Cat275]

I mean cool i guess but they could just check the message wall, me just waiting for the cardinal translation though.

(Hope they have 0=1 or those things i mentioned above.)

 

[Antvasima]

First we need to find out if the translation is correct or not, based on the comments from the member fluent in Japanese that I linked to above, and then we need input from some of our most knowledgeable members regarding our highest tiers.

@Ultima_Reality @DontTalkDT @First_Witch @Elizhaa @KingPin0422 @Qawsedf234 @Pain_to12

Would you be willing to evaluate this please?

Antvasima

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[First_Witch]

snip

Sorry but

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem.

 

[PrinceofPein]

@Ultima_Reality @DontTalkDT @First_Witch @Elizhaa @KingPin0422 @Qawsedf234 @Pain_to12

Would you be willing to evaluate this please?

Antvasima

vsbattles.fandom.com

He brought up some interesting points, although I cannot say for sure if his translation is valid, but if they are then he is correct

For the proposed tier tho, I am still with the believe that things inaccessible by High 1A, should not be automatically be 0, also @EndlessWords how many pages will this verse have all together?

 

[EndlessWords]

He brought up some interesting points, although I cannot say for sure if his translation is valid, but if they are then he is correct

For the proposed tier tho, I am still with the believe that things inaccessible by High 1A, should not be automatically be 0, also @EndlessWords how many pages will this verse have all together?

There is the Evil Electronic Brain which has a good capacity of adaptation, it can send nanomachines to build whole cities, it can rebuild itself thanks to data caches scattered in the space-time and it can create replicas of human beings, I do not know if it can have its own page

The Giant Corpora of Knowledge can have a page and they have many different abilities

A certain Hypergiant Corpora may eventually have its own page, it only appears during one chapter but it has shown some notable abilities and characteristics

Laplace's Demon can possibly have its own page, it didn't show any offensive abilities but we know some characteristics of this entity (maybe not enough to make a page)

Nemo Ex Machina can have its own page

Maybe a page to explain cosmology would be useful, so that people understand why a multiverse without hierarchy (not to mention the higher dimensions) is high 1-A and to talk quickly about higher hierarchies

So 6 pages maximum I think (but possibly less)

 

[EndlessWords]

I think the multiverse can qualify for tier boundless but if apparently there is missing evidence then I guess tier high 1-A will be sufficient
On the other hand I don't understand the qualifications needed to reach tier 0, sometimes an R>F layer gives boundless and sometimes it always gives high 1-A

In the explanation of tier 0 I see this description:

Characters who can affect objects which completely exceed the logical foundations of High 1-A

It is important to know that at the peak of their evolution the Giant Corpora of Knowledge are described as omnipotent in their own sphere of influence, they can even create a stone that is impossible to lift and then succeed in lifting it:

To which the giant corpora of knowledge could only respond that they themselves were already able to do anything. "Anything" was an easy thing to say, but it is a word that should be used with caution. For example, the giant corpora of knowledge could boast of knowledge on a scale required to create a stone too heavy for even the giant corpora of knowledge to lift, and then lift it. The way an omnipotent god could. The giant corpora of knowledge were themselves omnipotent

To become "omnipotent" they have acquired the maximum volume of knowledge and even beyond and yet they still cannot reach the top layer of the hierarchy
Finally, a being like Laplace's Demon who has reached a higher level of the hierarchy sees the Giant Corpora of Knowledge in the same way that the Giant Corpora of Knowlegde sees humans: as a dream

James thinks this way of thinking is nothing more than the giant corpora of knowledge's aspiration. They simply integrate too much leverage structure into their own thought processes. Of course, James is just like a dream of Yggdrasil's. But if that were true, then Yggdrasil is a dream of the demon's, and the demon must be a dream of a higher-level demon.

Isn't that enough to consider Laplace's Demon boundless? If not, what kind of statement is needed to prove it?

 

[Cat275]

As far as I see it the tiering system want's mahlo for tier 0 except sometimes it just needs something like a hyper-hyper inaccessible.
(Even when it's on low criteria)

Anyways a dream or rf difference is considered as aleph 1 superiority which is not qualified enough to be tier 0 by simply viewing a h1-A structure fiction.

(Would only be 1 layer up)

 

[EndlessWords]

As far as I see it the tiering system want's mahlo for tier 0 except sometimes it just needs something like a hyper-hyper inaccessible.
(Even when it's on low criteria)

Anyways a dream or rf difference is considered as aleph 1 superiority which is not qualified enough to be tier 0 by simply viewing a h1-A structure fiction.

(Would only be 1 layer up)

All boundless characters on the site are boundless via a RF difference, right?
Isn't the Supreme Archetype boundless because the Ultimate Gods (high 1-A) are only illusions coming from him ?

Even The Writer is potentially boundless because he sees the Overoid as a sheet of paper whereas a sheet of paper is not even a lower dimensional construct (a sheet of paper is not a fiction, a dream or something infinitesimal)

Why would seeing high 1-A characters as a dream be evidence of lower transcendence compared to the Supreme Archetype or The Writer?

 

[Antvasima]

Some seemingly important translations have been made:

Antvasima

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Timeless]

So right now the hierarchy would be:
"inaccessible cardinal (high 1-A)

mahlo cardinal (baseline 0)

ramsey cardinal

measurable cardinal

woodin cardinal (old Manifold)

supercompact cardinal

huge cardinal

contradictions

contradictions at the top of this ladder"

So this would be the most powerful verse that we have now if I am understanding this right

 

[Cat275]

the most powerful verse that we have now if I am understanding this right

Yeah.
(Stronger than old manifold because of super compact.)

 

[Cat275]

All boundless characters on the site are boundless via a RF difference, right?
Isn't the Supreme Archetype boundless because the Ultimate Gods (high 1-A) are only illusions coming from him ?

Even The Writer is potentially boundless because he sees the Overoid as a sheet of paper whereas a sheet of paper is not even a lower dimensional construct (a sheet of paper is not a fiction, a dream or something infinitesimal)

Why would seeing high 1-A characters as a dream be evidence of lower transcendence compared to the Supreme Archetype or The Writer?

Idk.

(I don't really know this people ngl)

 

[Timeless]

All boundless characters on the site are boundless via a RF difference, right?
Isn't the Supreme Archetype boundless because the Ultimate Gods (high 1-A) are only illusions coming from him ?

Even The Writer is potentially boundless because he sees the Overoid as a sheet of paper whereas a sheet of paper is not even a lower dimensional construct (a sheet of paper is not a fiction, a dream or something infinitesimal)

Why would seeing high 1-A characters as a dream be evidence of lower transcendence compared to the Supreme Archetype or The Writer?

The Supreme Archetype has more very complex evidence going into it giving it its 0 rating. You can check out the first upgrade thread to get more information.

The Writer's rating is like many years outdated. It may not even be 1-A by today's standards.

Yes, seeing High 1-A characters only gives a higher level of High 1-A

 

[Cat275]

Yes, seeing High 1-A characters only gives a higher level of High 1-A

Huh?

 

[Timeless]

Huh?

**** I meant to say seeing High 1-A characters as a dream only gives a higher level of High 1-A sorry about that

 

[EndlessWords]

The Supreme Archetype has more very complex evidence going into it giving it its 0 rating. You can check out the first upgrade thread to get more information.

The Writer's rating is like many years outdated. It may not even be 1-A by today's standards.

Yes, seeing High 1-A characters only gives a higher level of High 1-A

If I understand the explanation page correctly then the Supreme Archetype would be boundless because the "Ultimate Mystery" is the static and eternal totality holding the Ultimate Void which is high 1-A as a reduction of itself (well I don't agree with the Cthulhu Mythos levels but that's not the point here)

I don't see why this is more significant than seeing the 1-A high multiverse as a dream on an infinite number of layers, but I'm probably the one who doesn't understand something

**** I meant to say seeing High 1-A characters as a dream only gives a higher level of High 1-A sorry about that

If I understand correctly, it is the dream metaphor that is considered an inferior transcendence.
And there are probably missing statements for the upper layers to be considered a tier above

 

[Iaanxjx]

If I understand correctly, it is the dream metaphor that is considered an inferior transcendence.
And there are probably missing statements for the upper layers to be considered a tier above

this whale is infinitely above baseline High 1-A via that kind of statements i think

Yog situation is kinda like Twin Peaks and Elder Scrolls god-tiers' scenarios, their tier 0 descriptions look familiar, check em out.

Bondye is also good for example

 

[Timeless]

shall we get back to discussing self-reference engine? this thread has derailed quite a bit

 

[EndlessWords]

this whale is infinitely above baseline High 1-A via that kind of statements i think

Yog situation is kinda like Twin Peaks and Elder Scrolls god-tiers' scenarios, their tier 0 descriptions look familiar, check em out.

Bondye is also good for example

Okay, I understand
Basically if a character transcends a high 1-A layer but is still in the same hierarchy then he will always be high 1-A but if in another verse a character transcends a high 1-A layer without being part of a hierarchy and having a description that makes him more unique he can be boundless, um if that's how the tiering system works then ok (honestly the difference seems to me illusory)

shall we get back to discussing self-reference engine? this thread has derailed quite a bit

It was always related to the subject because I was trying to understand how an RF layer can sometimes give high 1-A and sometimes boundless

(Moreover this thread is not really animated)

 

[MrOMG]

Okay, I understand
Basically if a character transcends a high 1-A layer but is still in the same hierarchy then he will always be high 1-A but if in another verse a character transcends a high 1-A layer without being part of a hierarchy and having a description that makes him more unique he can be boundless, um if that's how the tiering system works then ok (honestly the difference seems to me illusory)

The way I see it, in order to be level 0, you have to qualitatively surpass the infinite hierarchy of High 1-A, where another High 1-A qualitatively surpasses another High 1-A.

 

[EndlessWords]

The way I see it, in order to be level 0, you have to qualitatively surpass the infinite hierarchy of High 1-A, where another High 1-A qualitatively surpasses another High 1-A.

So if the first layer of a hierarchy is high 1-A then all the layers of the hierarchy will be high 1-A
If Laplace's Demon saw the high 1-A characters as a dream without being described as part of the hierarchy it would be boundless, right?

 

[Cat275]

The way I see it, in order to be level 0, you have to qualitatively surpass the infinite hierarchy of High 1-A, where another High 1-A qualitatively surpasses another High 1-A.

That's one way to say it, though of course this is not how a mahlo cardinal works.

(I swear mahlo is heavily downgraded here.)

 

[MrOMG]

So if the first layer of a hierarchy is high 1-A then all the layers of the hierarchy will be high 1-A
If Laplace's Demon saw the high 1-A characters as a dream without being described as part of the hierarchy it would be boundless, right?

The idea is yes, since the Demon Laplace is the strongest being in the history of the Self Reference Engine, since they can climb hierarchies, the idea is that they can reach the very top of all existing hierarchies, and then the Demon Laplace hierarchy should go.
That's how it's supposed to go.
Infinite hierarchy of Knowledge, each step has its own multiverse.
Hierarchy of Logic, in which the infinite hierarchy of knowledge is nothing more than a step.
Further is the progression of hierarchies which is equal to the progression of cardinal numbers, i.e. the number of hierarchies should be 0=1.
Then comes an infinite hierarchy of Demons Laplace, who perceive this whole Ladder of Hierarchies as a dream, and the higher Demon perceives the lower Demon as a fiction.
Then there's an endless number of stories, and the Self Reference Engine story shouldn't be the most complicated construct, there should be stories whose cosmology should surpass the Self Reference Engine story.
And at the very top is Nemo Ex Machina, which surpasses anything and everything.

 

[EndlessWords]

Infinite hierarchy of Knowledge, each step has its own multiverse.
Hierarchy of Logic, in which the infinite hierarchy of knowledge is nothing more than a step.
Further is the progression of hierarchies which is equal to the progression of cardinal numbers, i.e. the number of hierarchies should be 0=1.
Then comes an infinite hierarchy of Demons Laplace, who perceive this whole Ladder of Hierarchies as a dream, and the higher Demon perceives the lower Demon as a fiction.

I thought Laplace's Demon had climbed one only layer higher in the hierarchy of logic but you think it transcended ALL the layers of the hierarchy of logic?

Then there's an endless number of stories, and the Self Reference Engine story shouldn't be the most complicated construct, there should be stories whose cosmology should surpass the Self Reference Engine story.
And at the very top is Nemo Ex Machina, which surpasses anything and everything.

Yes, that's what I understood too!
Normally Nemo Ex Machina is at the top of even bigger stories but we will only use the SRE story for scaling

 

[MrOMG]

I thought Laplace's Demon had climbed one only layer higher in the hierarchy of logic but you think it transcended ALL the layers of the hierarchy of logic?

It was said that Laplace's Demon was able to realize this whole ladder, I wouldn't be surprised if he started climbing other hierarchies.

"We are capable of comprehending plans such as these. We think this is due to the work of the devil. Given the extent of our facility with calculations, we are closer to Laplace's Demon than we are to any other person that existed in the past. It is because something like this transpired in the past that the devil ascended, moved up a step, and escaped to a place where we could not reach him. However, it is because of the devil's closure, a trick of topology that thinks this stairway through to the end, that our plan was recognized. That is why we are able to think about it and to carry it out. That is our belief.


"In that sense, our plan is an attempt to reenact Laplace's Demon. By reassembling the various fragments of the universe, we will recall the new demon. Our goal is to ensnare and take down the demon that has moved up a step on the logical hierarchy.

The idea is that Nemo Ex Machina exists outside of any stories, he can certainly be part of them, but no more.

 

[Cat275]

I mean assuming they have 0=1 they should have V --> V in itself, and the way nemo works from what i understand is like how mahlo and the progression of hyper-inaccessible works.

(Which is this:

Mahlo cardinals are inaccessible, hyper-inaccessible, hyper-hyper-inaccessible, ... and so on.)

Not entirely sure on what 0=1 cardinal it is as there are specific cardinals like reinhardt, super reinhardt, weakly reinhardt, weakly reinhardt II, totally reinhardt etc.

(But if im not wrong the 0=1 cardinal or theorem is usually specifically embedded on a normal or strongly "reinhardt cardinal" or atleast the schematic starts from that and just gradually becomes stronger as the progression of large cardinals from reinhardt cardinals to berkeley cardinals start, though im still not sure if the verse actually has this schematic.)

 

[Timeless]

The idea is yes, since the Demon Laplace is the strongest being in the history of the Self Reference Engine, since they can climb hierarchies, the idea is that they can reach the very top of all existing hierarchies, and then the Demon Laplace hierarchy should go.
That's how it's supposed to go.
Infinite hierarchy of Knowledge, each step has its own multiverse.
Hierarchy of Logic, in which the infinite hierarchy of knowledge is nothing more than a step.
Further is the progression of hierarchies which is equal to the progression of cardinal numbers, i.e. the number of hierarchies should be 0=1.
Then comes an infinite hierarchy of Demons Laplace, who perceive this whole Ladder of Hierarchies as a dream, and the higher Demon perceives the lower Demon as a fiction.
Then there's an endless number of stories, and the Self Reference Engine story shouldn't be the most complicated construct, there should be stories whose cosmology should surpass the Self Reference Engine story.
And at the very top is Nemo Ex Machina, which surpasses anything and everything.

holy *****.

So hierarchy of knowledge is High 1-A (Infinite layers)
Hierarchy of Logic is even higher High 1-A (Infinite^Infinite layers)
Further progression is 0 (0=1 layers)
Demons Laplace is 0
Story Hierarchy is 0
Nemo Ex Machina is 0

My question now is should the Hierarchies of Demons Laplace and Stories, should those also have 0=1 layers in them because it transcends the 0-1 system or have even more layers.
Either way, this verse is going to blow the shithole out of peak Manifold. Manifold would look like how Snakebite (Weakest 11-C) would look to peak Manifold ([Former] Strongest 0)

 

[Antvasima]

All staff and knowledgeable members:

So what should we do here exactly?

 

[Timeless]

All staff and knowledgeable members:

So what should we do here exactly?

It seems that we have a mostly agreed upon consensus around the tier ratings:
Hierarchy of knowledge is High 1-A
Hierarchy of Logic is even higher High 1-A
Further progression is 0
Demons Laplace is 0
Story Hierarchy is 0
Nemo Ex Machina is 0

 

[Antvasima]

Okay, but I need confirmations from several staff members and experienced regular members who understand our tiering system very well.