The Self-Reference Engine Introduction Thread (Actually a cosmology discussion)

[Setsuna_tenma]

matt and plank agreed with tier 0 for the SRE

 

[Megaraptor149]

matt and plank agreed with tier 0 for the SRE

Anyway, is their explain something why is tier 0 for SRE

 

[Cat275]

matt and plank agreed with tier 0 for the SRE

Are there any explanation behind that?

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Huh, seems like this thread died. Shame.

Anyhow, the tiering of the verse, as far as I can discern, should be as follows:

Multiverse = High 1-A (There being a universe for every cardinal number would result in this, and not Low 1-A or 1-A, since the collection of all cardinal numbers in a given system is just, practically speaking, equal to the smallest cardinal that's too large to be provable in the system. That is, of course, putting aside the fact that the text calls it "a progression of large cardinal numbers")

Hierarchy of Knowledge = Layers of High 1-A (Obvious reasons)

Further hierarchies = 0, most likely, since they would presumably fundamentally exceed the previous ladder in nature, as opposed to being just a set of layers that follows directly from it, or else calling them "other ladders" at all would be a bit strange. This part of the text is notably vague, though, so I'd understand wanting to place a caveat on it.

Self-Reference ENGINE = 0, given it is the book itself, and contains all of the above as a small subset of the collection of all possible stories, while being itself fully inaccessible to all of its contents due to its fundamentally nonexistent nature. And, for the matter, it does seem like the text treats Nemo's nonexistence as a factor of superiority over other things, since a sect of Corpora of Knowledge actually started to believe in it as the final stage of evolution that they could attain after finding out about the higher planes of knowledge above their own:

The Techno-Gnosis Group is said to be searching for a theory of the soul, seeking internal progress toward the next stage, but the results of this search are difficult for outsiders to detect. The central idea propounded by Hildegard and her cohort is the Nemo ex machina, a mechanized null. These giant corpora of knowledge are spending most of their passing instants in a semi-trance, exploring the multiverse within. For the most part, this renders them incapable of communication.

As for who scales where: Outside of the obvious placement of the Self-Reference Engine, whether the Giant Corpora of Knowledge scale to the full extent of the multiverse is arguable. They are referred to as having full dominion over everything in it, and as being able to potentially burn down all universes to use them as fuel, so, at their peak capabilities, it seems like they do scale to it:

It hardly needs to be said that for the giant corpora of knowledge, which have taken charge of the management of, and in fact exercise dominion over, everything in this universe, and in fact beyond, everything in the multiverse, the appearance of the old man was a gut-wrenching experience.

This old man, without any preamble, had simply taken over the multiversal communications network.

The giant corpora of knowledge, their operations disrupted, were frantically sending alarm signals to one another and investigating the point of entry to the communications network, but they were finding no trace of the breach. For the giant corpora of knowledge that control the network—or perhaps more accurately, that are the network—this situation was far beyond their imagination. Not only were they proud of their impenetrable security, they thought of themselves as defining what security is. This old man had handily pierced their firewalls and was now casually displaying his image on the multiverse communications network without so much as a time lag.

At any rate, what lies on the far side is still the unknown. The only thing certain is that something far beyond imagination exists there. Forward, one step at a time, is the only way to proceed. That is what the giant corpora of knowledge had been best at, but now they were sure their intellectual capacity was not up to the task. They were constructed to continue working forever. But what were they supposed to do, assuming their newfound adversary was beyond a horizon so far off they could never reach it even if they used all the many universes as fuel and burned completely through existence?

Not to mention that they are responsible for the Event that fractured the universe into a multiverse in the first place:

Someone opens something, someone else closes it. A beautiful composition, a concept that feels just right. But there is an anxiety, not yet fully formed, rising in my chest. Conceiving of this kind of puzzle, for example, is possible only within the context of some meaning. It is a wire puzzle in which one entangles oneself. Or perhaps it is a trick box that, once it is opened, will require a greater number of steps to close again.

The solution could simply be a game of chase, a matter of speed of execution. How fast are humans, actually? People might be just the sort to try to create a machine that can undo the puzzle. And then they might build another machine to recursively operate the first machine. The puzzle is just a puzzle, but people might be happy to see an endless daisy chain of machines for dealing with it.

What would happen, though, if at some point, some machine toward the end of the chain just threw it back to the beginning?

Or what if it were possible that this chain of machines was capable of assembling a puzzle it was incapable of solving?

The network of the giant corpora of knowledge stopped being just an integration of logic circuits and singularized itself with the world of natural phenomena. Through several technical steps, it made the upward leap of infinite steps to become one with nature itself.

“This also marked the integration of calculation with the Actuator.”

From that point forward, the giant corpora of knowledge could no longer distinguish between calculation and natural phenomena. The circle now floating in the sky, literally nothing more than a geometrical structure, is the living proof. Intention turned directly to realization, or more precisely, the realization of the indissociability of intention and result.

However, as the giant corpora of knowledge singularized themselves resolutely with the world of natural phenomena, one direct consequence was the fragmentation of the space-time matrix.

Opinion is divided whether this fragmentation was an accident or an inevitability. The giant corpora of knowledge claim they did not foresee this, and the humans have no choice but to accept their word. Calculations at speeds transcending the rules of the natural world are still impossible, and lying is beyond the capacity of the rules of the natural world.

But, on the other hand, individual groups of Corpora only merged themselves with single universes, which can be destroyed with enough firepower:

The calculation war itself is beyond the intellectual grasp of even the giant corpora of knowledge. It is like a battle of titanic storms. But the goal of destroying the physical foundational layer of the giant corpora of knowledge is simply a matter of who is stronger than whom. Calculating machines that by whatever means have been singularized with individual universes are now able to destroy one another, effectively destroying the universes they have become. It’s like throwing a rock at a word processor.

The calculation wars are taking place on an unimaginably grand scale, requiring giant corpora of knowledge that are bored of being spoiled and asked how they are doing. If it were just a matter of throwing stones, all you would need would be stones. You might say you could manage somehow even without stones to throw, but it would help to have arms to throw them with.

In fact, the universe-scale “word processor” facing attack is bruising its way through, bragging that no ball has ever hit it. It is made to function like an elementary school student: it can’t understand what it is hearing, and because of that, and although real things are not so simple, simple ideas are simple, and they have core portions that are difficult to dispute. It is the basic outline that gives the whole thing its form.

So, they'd probably be something like "High 1-B, up to High 1-A at their peak." None of that actually applies to the Hypergiant Corpora, though, since they're just a bunch of layers above the multiverse regardless.

Giant Knowledge Corps have full omnipotence within the hierarchy of knowledge, where the infinite dimensional multiverse is no more than one rung in the hierarchy, the various infinite multiverse, regardless of their structural complexity, were themselves nothing more than a dream or a fiction of the common man, the Giant Knowledge Corps in mid-book explored their own internal multiverse. But although they became omnipotent beings capable of creating an indestructible stone and then destroying it in a second, and even affecting a higher logical level hierarchy(their writer's world), they were still limited by their logical level. Despite all their power, and their higher position in the hierarchy of knowledge, Humans and Giant Knowledge Corps were on the same rung of the Logic/Law hierarchy in terms of higher beings.

I'm not sure that the Corpora of Knowledge realizing they're fiction and then burning down the book in which they were written about is a valid feat for them. The context of that whole segment is that the narration is listing possible reasons for the Corpora of Knowledge having gone extinct, and then immediately disregarding all of them as things that never actually happened.

What if, the giant corpora of knowledge are thinking. What if the physical foundation of our existence is a book? We may go around with a slick-sounding name like giant corpora of knowledge, but really there’s not much to us, is there? And maybe there’s really not much to us because the writer was a dope. Such were the thoughts of the letters making up the words “giant corpora of knowledge.” They would show the guy who wrote this stuff, and the people who were reading it. One of these nights, the letters spelling out “giant corpora of knowledge” would catch fire and start a blaze. They will cause the wind to blow, fanning the pages, turning them as if the book were reading itself, and return to ashes.
Dead of a common cold.
Lost love.
Leapt off in the wrong direction.

None of these things was the reason for the extinction of the giant corpora of knowledge. They died off due to reasons outside the realm of our imagination. It happened in a very strange fashion, and mere humans may not even approach comprehension of the reasons for their extinction.

Now, technically, since it is a combination of letters/words, it counts as a story and is therefore contained as part of the Self-Reference Engine itself, but I don't think it necessarily applies to the context of the narrative we're being told by the book 99% of the time.

 

[Cat275]

What is the high1-A requirement though.

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

What is the high1-A requirement though.

above infinite layers of High 1A or really high maths concept

 

[Cat275]

above infinite layers of High 1A or really high maths concept

I'm asking what inaccessible I mean.

The tiering system example narrows things down very little, every mahlo and above cardinals are inaccessible since their a form of indescribabllity, we have things like greater mahlo(like compact cardinals) inaccessible 0=1(equivalent to Reinhardt) etc and I'm just asking which specific inaccessible is the one used in H1-A, weakly or strongly?

 

[Lewis]

I'm asking what inaccessible I mean.

The tiering system example narrows things down very little, every mahlo and above cardinals are inaccessible since their a form of indescribabllity, we have things like greater mahlo(like compact cardinals) inaccessible 0=1(equivalent to Reinhardt) etc and I'm just asking which specific inaccessible is the one used in H1-A, weakly or strongly?

Does it mean grothendieck universe?
(Grothendieckb = cardinal k )

 

[Cat275]

Does it mean grothendieck universe?

Maybe? Grothendieck universe has many said examples and one of them is equivalent to strongly inaccessible.

The examples in the tiering system section is so narrow that I can't tell

Edit:Op cardinal k isn't a strongly inaccessible by default you quite literally need to apply certain theorems, since k is more of a inner model.

(Also a limit cardinal, maybe in between strong and weak?)

 

[Cat275]

above infinite layers of High 1A or really high maths concept

Oh yeah just to clarify I was actually asking for the high1-A requirements you seem to misunderstand my question.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I think Ultima's latest post makes the most sense.

 

[Antvasima]

@Ultima_Reality

I have been sent claims that the translation you used is inaccurate:

Antvasima

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Cat275]

Huh, seems like this thread died. Shame.

Anyhow, the tiering of the verse, as far as I can discern, should be as follows:

Multiverse = High 1-A (There being a universe for every cardinal number would result in this, and not Low 1-A or 1-A, since the collection of all cardinal numbers in a given system is just, practically speaking, equal to the smallest cardinal that's too large to be provable in the system. That is, of course, putting aside the fact that the text calls it "a progression of large cardinal numbers")

Just want to ask but doesn't the statement only prove that higher and greater axioms of zfc can exist and doesn't actually prove even the least indescribable cardinals exist?

Further hierarchies = 0, most likely, since they would presumably fundamentally exceed the previous ladder in nature, as opposed to being just a set of layers that follows directly from it, or else calling them "other ladders" at all would be a bit strange. This part of the text is notably vague, though, so I'd understand wanting to place a caveat on it.

I don't think we can assume it's strongly nor weakly mahlo or 0 by this statement.

Anyways I just wanted to ask this things since it bothers me a little.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I have been sent claims that the translation you used is inaccurate:

Antvasima

vsbattles.fandom.com

I am usually suspicious of guys with default avatars popping up to talk about translations

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I think that he has been around for quite a while and is active in the ACF wiki. Is this revision thread about a Russian book?

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

Well, I think that he has been around for quite a while and is active in the ACF wiki. Is this revision thread about a Russian book?

Nah its from japan

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the information. Then it may not be a very serious issue.

 

[Cat275]

Okay. Thank you for the information. Then it may not be a very serious issue.

Are there any issue in Russian books?

 

[Megaraptor149]

Are there any issue in Russian books?

I think it's just translation issue, remind this Book is japanese

 

[Antvasima]

It seems like the member in question is Japanese and has read the book in its original language:

Antvasima

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Timeless]

Multiverse = High 1-A (There being a universe for every cardinal number would result in this, and not Low 1-A or 1-A, since the collection of all cardinal numbers in a given system is just, practically speaking, equal to the smallest cardinal that's too large to be provable in the system. That is, of course, putting aside the fact that the text calls it "a progression of large cardinal numbers")

Hierarchy of Knowledge = Layers of High 1-A (Obvious reasons)

Further hierarchies = 0, most likely, since they would presumably fundamentally exceed the previous ladder in nature, as opposed to being just a set of layers that follows directly from it, or else calling them "other ladders" at all would be a bit strange. This part of the text is notably vague, though, so I'd understand wanting to place a caveat on it.

Self-Reference ENGINE = 0, given it is the book itself, and contains all of the above as a small subset of the collection of all possible stories, while being itself fully inaccessible to all of its contents due to its fundamentally nonexistent nature. And, for the matter, it does seem like the text treats Nemo's nonexistence as a factor of superiority over other things, since a sect of Corpora of Knowledge actually started to believe in it as the final stage of evolution that they could attain after finding out about the higher planes of knowledge above their own:

Using this scaling, what level of tier 0 will the Self-Reference ENGINE (The entity) reach?

 

[EndlessWords]

Using this scaling, what level of tier 0 will the Self-Reference ENGINE reach?

Hard to define, it is already necessary to know if the Hypergiant Knowledge Corporation and the Laplace Demons are at tier 0 or not.
High 1-A characters are dust or dreams for other characters on many hierarchies

 

[Timeless]

Hard to define, it is already necessary to know if the Hypergiant Knowledge Corporation and the Laplace Demons are at tier 0 or not.
High 1-A characters are dust or dreams for other characters on many hierarchies

I think it is dependent on how many further hierarchies there are. which can be finite or infinite, it isn't specified

 

[EndlessWords]

The number of hierarchies is not specified but it is known that there are several hierarchies that lead to even higher hierarchies
If seeing a high 1-A multiverse as a dream or a fiction is enough for tier 0 then the beings in the higher echelons are in tier 0 and they are in turn fictional characters in echelons even higher up and these echelons create hierarchies

 

[Cat275]

The number of hierarchies is not specified but it is known that there are several hierarchies that lead to even higher hierarchies
If seeing a high 1-A multiverse as a dream or a fiction is enough for tier 0 then the beings in the higher echelons are in tier 0 and they are in turn fictional characters in echelons even higher up and these echelons create hierarchies

Pretty sure seeing High 1-A as fiction is still High 1-A.

I swear everyone is using mahlo and inaccessible cardinals incorrectly.

 

[Timeless]

Pretty sure seeing High 1-A as fiction is still High 1-A.

I swear everyone is using mahlo and inaccessible cardinals incorrectly.

yes but the transcendence from the main hierarchy (∞ into High 1-A) to the further hierarchy would be tier 0. the amount of tier 0 layers is unknown. And the self-reference engine is above all of this

 

[Cat275]

yes but the transcendence from the main hierarchy (∞ into High 1-A) to the further hierarchy would be tier 0. the amount of tier 0 layers is unknown. And the self-reference engine is above all of this

Alright, guess this is a few layers to 0 disregarding hard math criteria.

(Since it's still not mahlo in math nor anything close to it.)

 

[Lewis]

I need to see the structure be strongly inaccessible to created lambda.
(mahlo cardinal)
U={ĸ>lambda | lambda= strongly Inaccessible}

 

[EndlessWords]

Alright, guess this is a few layers to 0 disregarding hard math criteria.

(Since it's still not mahlo in math nor anything close to it.)

The mathematical criteria are not strict, otherwise I don't believe that a single verse of the site would be boundless
SRE is not boundless because of cardinal Mahlo but for transcending infinite high 1-A characters
The boundless tier can be reached by simply using 2 or 3 infinite hierarchies without any mention of cardinals

 

[Cat275]

I need to see the structure be strongly inaccessible to created lambda.

Structure doesn't even reach alpha inaccessible in math.

(mahlo cardinal)

I don't think so, we can create alpha lambda which is a weakly inaccessible cardinal.
(Though I suppose that Is not the case here with this little context given below.)

U={ĸ>lambda | lambda= strongly Inaccessible}

Yeah, This seems fine.

 

[Cat275]

The mathematical criteria are not strict, otherwise I don't believe that a single verse of the site would be boundless
SRE is not boundless because of cardinal Mahlo but for transcending infinite high 1-A characters
The boundless tier can be reached by simply using 2 or 3 infinite hierarchies without any mention of cardinals

Your point being?

 

[EndlessWords]

Your point being?

Using the current standards SRE reaches tier 0 even if the Mahlo cardinal is not directly mentioned

 

[Antvasima]

I have been sent claims that the translation you used is inaccurate:

Antvasima

vsbattles.fandom.com

It seems like the member in question is Japanese and has read the book in its original language:

Antvasima

vsbattles.fandom.com

@Matthew_Schroeder @Ultima_Reality

What do you think that we should do regarding this issue? Should I send a request for help from members who know Japanese and have helped us with translations in the past?

 

[Lewis]

The mathematical criteria are not strict, otherwise I don't believe that a single verse of the site would be boundless
SRE is not boundless because of cardinal Mahlo but for transcending infinite high 1-A characters
The boundless tier can be reached by simply using 2 or 3 infinite hierarchies without any mention of cardinals

It's like Axiom schema of replacement and it should be h1a.

 

[EndlessWords]

It's like Axiom schema of replacement and it should be h1a.

Seeing a high 1-A multiverse and the many higher hierarchies as a fiction is not boundless?
How does transcendence need to be defined for it to give boundless tier?

 

[Ultima_Reality]

What is the high1-A requirement though.

From the current Tiering System page:

Characters who can affect objects that are larger than what the logical framework defining 1-A and below can allow, and as such exceed any possible number of levels contained in the previous tiers, including an infinite or uncountably infinite number. Practically speaking, this would be something completely unreachable to any 1-A hierarchies.

Under those terms, pretty much any large cardinal would suffice, including the smallest number that's too large to be proved to exist in a model of ZFC (Like ω/aleph-0 is to a finitist model) would fit that bill. I'll admit that, given this phrasing, though, using an inaccessible cardinal specifically as an example might be a bit odd, so your confusion is not unjustified. I suppose I'll bring this up elsewhere in a minute; can't let ambiguities like this stick around.

What do you think that we should do regarding this issue? Should I send a request for help from members who know Japanese and have helped us with translations in the past?

Has that person disputed any of the tiering-relevant excerpts as being mistranslated? From what I've seen, they haven't elaborated on what exactly is the translation's mistake here.

 

[Megaraptor149]

If this accept as tier 0.
how far is the scale above baseline tier 0?

 

[Cat275]

Using the current standards SRE reaches tier 0 even if the Mahlo cardinal is not directly mentioned

And I did agree to it yes?

Under those terms, pretty much any large cardinal would suffice, including the smallest number that's too large to be proved to exist in a model of ZFC (Like ω/aleph-0 is to a finitist model) would fit that bill.

I suppose that means that even bigger aleph omega sequences are enough to be tier 0 then.
(Or atleast limit ordinal alephs or any weakly inaccessible cardinal that is not aleph 0 nor aleph omega)

I'll admit that, given this phrasing, though, using an inaccessible cardinal specifically as an example might be a bit odd, so your confusion is not unjustified. I suppose I'll bring this up elsewhere in a minute; can't let ambiguities like this stick around.

Alright nice.

It's like Axiom schema of replacement and it should be h1a.

Even a weakly inaccessible cardinal that is not aleph 0 whatnot can not be obtained by any order and relations of the axiom schema (1st, 2nd and higher order logic) this includes the axiom schema of replacement....

Though from what I've see given above, axiom of schema seems to have the potential to reach tier 0 maybe atleast a few layers into it, but if not it should be atleast immeasurable layers to High 1-A or around the baseline of 0.

 

[Timeless]

If this accept as tier 0.
how far is the scale above baseline tier 0?

we can't really know. because the amount of layers in the "further hierarchy" is unknown the amount of layers is unknown. but I can assure you its going to be a lot

 

[Cat275]

how far is the scale above baseline tier 0?

Immeasurable or a few layers into it.