[The Secret World] Conceptual Manipulation for the Dreamers

[Ogbunabali]

Well there's been a revision for the types for Conceptual Manipulation, and type 3 is more inclusive than it was before, the Filth should qualify for that now.

The new definition for type 3 concepts:

3. Lesser Realist Concept: Such concepts are abstract, but do not govern reality. Instead, these concepts are only related (in variable manner) to mental faculties such as cognition and the senses. From this definition, they can be of almost any model so long as they are distinct mental objects relevant to human thought and comprehension. However, these concepts are still truly abstract, and manipulating the abstract concept itself is still conceptual manipulation. Similarly to Type 2, this type of conceptual manipulation can only be obtained if the abstract concept itself is changed directly, and not by indirect methods. For example, affecting the mind could also affect the concepts responsible for its function (though this is not universal), however this would not qualify as the concepts need to be affected directly.

The Filth is a living meme:

It is like us. A flowing message. Crawling letters. A living meme. It is not us. It is anti-us, anti-luminosity that crucifies sentience. It trickles down hundreds of dimensions on alien gravity. You cannot even see most of it, sweetling. How will you escape? How do you hobble through this world on three tiny dimensions? It flows across time, a disease floating on Quantum Foam.

-Legends: The Filth

It works on ideas:

Cover ups and walls leak like bullet holes. Eh, sweetling? The pathogen works on quantum foam. The pathogen works on ideas. The pathogen does not care for humanity's boundaries. The first wall is compromised.

-Legends: Breach Of The First Wall

Even seemingly created/changed myth:

Do you see? The draug of Kingsmouth are not the draug of legend. The Filth infected the minds of those poor Vikings. And through the Filth, the Dreaming Ones saw the folklore of the draug. The Dreaming Ones view dreams and reality as interchangeable. They delighted with this dark inspiration, and set about to make it a reality. The folklore became the prism of their alien thoughts. The Draug Lords are not, as the others, made from human material. They are the avatar's of the Dreaming Ones' sleepy will. They corrupt reality and mutate it. The draug of Kingsmouth are not the draug of legend, but they may as well be.

-Legend: Draug Leaders

Guts as a cauldron. I've gotta tell you, that's a pretty metaphor from the buzzing. But what if it's the wrong metaphor? What if it's pregnancy? What if we create our own mythos, birth our own devils to torment us? This is our world, Chuck.

-Legend: The Tragical History of Doctor Faustus

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Yeah, there isn't much to say or ask that I haven't already, so, I'm fine with this.

 

[Ogbunabali]

Pinging some staff @QuasiYuri @Executor_N0 @Elizhaa @DarkDragonMedeus @DontTalkDT

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

QuasiYuri is an expert on these types of things, and Conceptual Manipulation typically is something over my head. Though the OP's examples look pretty strait forward. But I'd wait for other staff.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Seems fine to me.

 

[Elizhaa]

The proposal seems fine.

 

[Orioreeem]

What verse is this?

 

[Ogbunabali]

It's in the title, The Secret World.

 

[Orioreeem]

What is it about? The verse doesn't seem to have a page.

 

[Ogbunabali]

You can google it, it's kind of deraling.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Not really familiar with Type 3 now that it had been changed.
Can you briefly summarize why the Filth stuff is Type 3 Concept Manipulation and not Mind Manipulation?

 

[Ogbunabali]

Well mostly because it's an abstract meme and information. It's pretty literal in that regard. Which would fall under the current definition, I linked it in the OP, it's self-explanatory in that regard I think.

Information is a super-weird substance, sometimes floating as oil, sometimes vapour, invisible waves, pollution, roiling black storms, a viral rhyme.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Well mostly because it's an abstract meme and information. It's pretty literal in that regard. Which would fall under the current definition, I linked it in the OP, it's self-explanatory in that regard I think.

If it's manipulating information directly as the quote suggests, particularly in a non-universal manner, wouldn't this be an expression of information manipulation instead?

 

[Ogbunabali]

Well, the Filth is a lot of stuff, it is information itself. The quote is referring to the different things the Filth itself is, not just what it controls. It takes the shape of a physical oily substance, fog, wave forms, etc. It's a dream that is whatever the Dreamers dream it to be.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Ok, but why do those things point towards it being a concept in particular?
I mean, if it's a dream that's dream manipulation. I don't think dreams count as type 3 concepts now.
Then again, maybe abstract dreams are? Depends on how trusting we are in the meaning of the word "abstract" I guess.

 

[Ogbunabali]

Well, again, as I said in the OP, the new definitions became a little more liberal in what we regard as such nowadays, as we aren't purely constrained by Platonic thought anymore. It being an abstract meme would fall under this definition.

Such concepts are abstract, but do not govern reality. Instead, these concepts are only related (in variable manner) to mental faculties such as cognition and the senses. From this definition, they can be of almost any model so long as they are distinct mental objects relevant to human thought and comprehension. However, these concepts are still truly abstract, and manipulating the abstract concept itself is still conceptual manipulation. Similarly to Type 2, this type of conceptual manipulation can only be obtained if the abstract concept itself is changed directly, and not by indirect methods. For example, affecting the mind could also affect the concepts responsible for its function (though this is not universal), however this would not qualify as the concepts need to be affected directly.

 

[DontTalkDT]

We were never really restrained to plantonic thought, but that isn't the point here.
Guess I will say this is ok for now.

 

[Everything12]

A Type 3 Concept still has to be a Concept. It still has to be an abstract idea which we use to classify and identify something.

 

[Ogbunabali]

Well, that's where it being an abstract meme comes in.

Well mostly because it's an abstract meme and information. It's pretty literal in that regard. Which would fall under the current definition, I linked it in the OP, it's self-explanatory in that regard I think.

 

[DontTalkDT]

A Type 3 Concept still has to be a Concept. It still has to be an abstract idea which we use to classify and identify something.

You see... I think the current definition isn't well written exactly due to that.
According to the cambridge dictionary the word abstract can mean as much as "existing as an idea, feeling, or quality, not as a material object". So if you say abstract idea, you basically say "an idea that has the properties of an idea".
I'm well aware that that isn't what the writers of the definition intended, but if they don't say what they intend everything is permissible for the time being.

 

[Ogbunabali]

Well since this has been accepted, I'll go ahead with the changes then.