The Revenant Marvel Comics Discussion Thread

[Eseseso]

So does Doom not have the sheer versatility of Reed Richards? Is he more of a character with high-level feats but a rather limited repertoire outside of his magic, similarly to Tony Stark?

Interesting question.

Asides from being a genius inventor/engineer like Reed Richards, Doom has many other forms of intelligence:

1. Magic: Started out as basically a rookie in magic, but has learned both from top sorcerers (Cagliostro, Morgan Le Fay, Doctor Strange) and through searching throughout time for magic books, and is now consistently portrayed as one of the top 5 sorcerers around, maybe even #2 (in skill, not power).
2. Strategy and manipulation: Doom is a fantastic manipulator and chessmaster, being able to play most people around him for pawns in his game. Such as in GotG (2020), where he helps a Skrull cult summon Dormammu, and then has the Guardians of the Galaxy fight and defeat it (with his help) just to get a portion of Dormammu's power. Of course, his ego does often get in the way of his plans, but usually only when the Fantastic Four is involved. Let's not forget how he and Molecule Man together SAVED THE MULTIVERSE (sort of) from the Beyonders. Oh, and he built the machine that absorbed the collective power of the Beyonders' race.

So yes, I'd say he's quite versatile.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I think that Doctor Strange is only listed as a genius, despite being more skilled than Doom in this area, the chessmaster feats are well within real world human range, and didn't the Molecule Man absorb the power of some of the Beyonders on his own?

 

[Eseseso]

Well, I think that Doctor Strange is only listed as a genius, despite being more skilled than Doom in this area, the chessmaster feats are well within real world human range,

I know, I was just showing that Doom is a versatile genius. Still not sure if he's a super genius, though.

Honestly, there's likely a lot of people who have a "Super Genius" status on this site that probably shouldn't.

and didn't the Molecule Man absorb the power of some of the Beyonders on his own?

Some of it, yes.

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

Honestly, there's likely a lot of people who have a "Super Genius" status on this site that probably shouldn't.

Time for a new checklist thread

 

[Antvasima]

I know, I was just showing that Doom is a versatile genius. Still not sure if he's a super genius, though.

Honestly, there's likely a lot of people who have a "Super Genius" status on this site that probably shouldn't.

Yes, definitely. Help to find and adjust them would be very appreciated.

Some of it, yes.

Well, only some of the Beyonders (possibly as few as 3 of them) were killed and had their powers absorbed by the Molecule Man, if I recall correctly, and I do not think that Doom used any machines to set it up, but I may misremember.

 

[Eseseso]

Yes, definitely. Help to find and adjust them would be very appreciated.

Maybe later.

Well, only some of the Beyonders (possibly as few as 3 of them) were killed and had their powers absorbed by the Molecule Man, if I recall correctly, and I do not think that Doom used any machines to set it up, but I may misremember.

I remember some sort of big machine that Doom, Strange, and Molecule Man were standing on that vacuumed up the power, but I might be misremembering.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Can somebody recheck please?

 

[Eseseso]

Also, I'm trying to find a quote for God Emperor Doom for Doom's page, here's an ideal dialogue I found:

Doom	A throne? I've had a throne for quite some time. A throne was my birthright. I've placed myself a good bit higher than that.
Thanos	Have you? I have my doubts. If one plays at being a god, one would not shy away from saying it.
Doom	I am God.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

@Ultima_Reality Given the ongoing Transduality -> Nonduality change, I'd like to ask you about the 11 Marvel characters with some form of nonduality, as it doesn't look consistent:

1. Eternity (Multiversal Key): "Transduality (Type 3; Transcends the In-Betweener, an inner function of himself that personifies the barrier and division between dichotomies,[22][23] being "a concept of concepts"[24] and "walking the path between all worlds, all concepts,"[25] simultaneously the union of all polarities and something that stands exempt from them)"
2. Galactus (World-Eater Key): "Transduality (Type 2; Described as being devoid of dualities, being "the absence of opposites" that contrasts The In-Betweener's union of opposites,[23] uncreated and untouched by the interplay between Death and Eternity,[24] and immune to the In-Betweener's power over dichotomies as a result[25])"
3. Lord Chaos and Master Order (Logos Key): "Transduality (Type 2)" (No justification)
4. Oblivion (True Oblivion Key): "Transduality (Type 3; As he is beyond the omniverse, he also transcends the In-Betweener, an inner function of Eternity that personifies the barrier and division between dichotomies,[14][15] being "a concept of concepts"[16] and "walking the path between all worlds, all concepts,"[17] simultaneously the union of all polarities and something that stands exempt from them)"
5. Phoenix Force (True Phoenix Force Key): "Transduality (Type 3; As she is beyond the omniverse, he also transcends the In-Betweener, an inner function of Eternity that personifies the barrier and division between dichotomies,[21][22] being "a concept of concepts"[23] and "walking the path between all worlds, all concepts,"[24] simultaneously the union of all polarities and something that stands exempt from them)"
6. The Beyonders: "Transduality (Type 3; As they are beyond the omniverse, he also transcends the In-Betweener, an inner function of Eternity that personifies the barrier and division between dichotomies,[12][13] being "a concept of concepts"[14] and "walking the path between all worlds, all concepts,"[15] simultaneously the union of all polarities and something that stands exempt from them)"
7. The First Firmament: ""
8. The In-Betweener (Universal Key): "Transduality (Type 2)" (No justification)
9. The Living Tribunal (M-Bodies Key): "Transduality (Type 2; Stated to transcend "all opposing realities"[6][7])"
10. The Never Queen: "Transduality (Type 2; As she is beyond the omniverse, she also transcends the In-Betweener, an inner function of Eternity that personifies the barrier and division between dichotomies, being "a concept of concepts" and "walking the path between all worlds, all concepts")"
11. The One Above All: "Transduality (Type 3; As The One Above All, it is the pure unity of the divine, where all contending forces exist as one undivided wholeness, even with respect to the lesser planes of the Mystery[15])"

The In-Betweener and Galactus, in particular, should get Nature Type 1 and Aspect Type 2. People who transcend them should get Nature Type 2 and Aspect Type 3, meanwhile.

I didn't bother to justify the In-Betweener having Transduality because it's pretty much his whole gimmick. That'd be like giving justification for Static Shock having Electricity Manipulation, or somesuch; simply just unneeded when a quick look at the character's whole premise already tells you why they have that power. Logos' is unjustified because he's basically a carbon-copy of the Living Tribunal and inherits all hos abilities by consequence. The Never-Queen having only Type 2 Transduality was a mistake, though, for what's worth.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

@Ultima_Reality

Have you tried to inform Al Ewing about the existence of the following page that you created?

Marvel Comics Cosmology (World Hierarchy)

The following is a page dedicated to outlining the cosmology of Marvel Comics, focused primarily on presenting each of its layers in an hierarchical fashion, as well as exploring other important details of the setting. For the purposes of these explanations, at least a cursory knowledge of...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Oh, I didn't make the effort, really. (And would rather not try to bug him with that. He's closed off his Twitter for a reason)

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

The In-Betweener and Galactus, in particular, should get Nature Type 1 and Aspect Type 2. People who transcend them should get Nature Type 2 and Aspect Type 3, meanwhile.

I didn't bother to justify the In-Betweener having Transduality because it's pretty much his whole gimmick. That'd be like giving justification for Static Shock having Electricity Manipulation, or somesuch; simply just unneeded when a quick look at the character's whole premise already tells you why they have that power. Logos' is unjustified because he's basically a carbon-copy of the Living Tribunal and inherits all hos abilities by consequence. The Never-Queen having only Type 2 Transduality was a mistake, though, for what's worth.

1. Why is Chaos & Order's nonduality exclusive to their logos form while their omniversal selves don't have it?
2. The Living Tribunal's m-bodies have nature 2 nonduality, should I leave that alone and change the multiversal version?

 

[Eseseso]

Btw, something I've been arguing about in my head for a while:

So in case some of you are unaware, the popular feat of Doom surviving for millions of years to get revenge on the Marquis of Death was retconned in Dark Avengers #176-177, which obviously puts some of Doom's well-known feats from that arc into question.

After reading both the MoD arc and the arc in which he was rescued and connecting the dots, here is my analysis of all of Doom's original feats, and whether or not they're still legitimate or need to be edited on his profile:

• Surviving for millions of years and spent that time mastering dark arts: REMOVE. This is simple enough, the retcon caused him to get a time-travelling machine, which he used to travel to an unknown time period to get revenge on the Marquis of Death for horrifically physically torturing him, mind-torturing him, and wiping out Latveria.
• Changing his molecular structure so that the MoD couldn't torture his body again: LEANING KEEP. Nothing in the story actually contradicts this, especially since Doom was able to avoid being recognized by the Marquis of Death himself, who mastered and conquered time and space.
• Killing a Watcher: KEEP. It is shown that Doom killed the Watcher only during/after his training with the MoD for centuries, not during the (now-false) "millions of years", not to mention that we see the corpse in the present day, and the Marquis himself never claims to have killed the Watcher or that Doom is lying.
  • As to what happened to Doom's power after this, one official handbook did theorize that he sacrificed this power to bring back Latveria after the Marquis of Death had destroyed it.
• Outsmarting the MoD and hiding his identity for centuries: KEEP. That part of the story still happened, nothing retconned.

Also, I would just like to note that a good endurance feat for Doom is how, after all his torture, he was still able to speak and walk, before promptly hijacking the Thunderbolts' time machine. He was unable to really fight, but still very much healthy and walking despite his heart being turned to stone, his lungs to acid, and the Marquis of Death trying to kill his atoms.

In short: Anything on his profile that says "millions of years" regarding that story should be removed, the rest is likely fine.

Also, Doom should get resistance to Acid Manipulation and limited durability negation resistance, since not only did he survive the internal damage of "his heart turned to stone and his blood turned to acid" by the Marquis of Death and shows few negative effects to his innards from it in Dark Avengers 176-177, but its never shown melting through his skin, so his body apparently is resistant to acid.

 

[Eseseso]

Also, after working on the magic sandbox a good bit, I've come to the realization that I'll likely have to make an additional sandbox on Astral Forms in Marvel, since one of the most notable magic powers in marvel is to be capable of affecting and destroying Astral Forms. Plus the well-known Astral Projection that basically all sorcerers in Marvel can do (especially Doctor Strange and Morgan Le Fay).

The main reason for the sandbox is due to them having far more unique qualities/powers than I had originally thought.

 

[Eseseso]

Also, after working on the magic sandbox a good bit, I've come to the realization that I'll likely have to make an additional sandbox on Astral Forms in Marvel, since one of the most notable magic powers in marvel is to be capable of affecting and destroying Astral Forms. Plus the well-known Astral Projection that basically all sorcerers in Marvel can do (especially Doctor Strange and Morgan Le Fay).

The main reason for the sandbox is due to them having far more unique qualities/powers than I had originally thought.

So yeah, I now have:

• A Marvel Magic Sandbox (though I am gradually making progress).
  • A complimentary sandbox of who knows and/or resists which type of magic
• An Astral Form Sandbox (which is tied to the Magic Sandbox)
• A Marvel Mind-Hax sandbox (which is very much tied to the Astral sandbox since virtually all Marvel telepathy involves Astral realm stuff [spoilers: Marvel mind-hax stocks are going to be very high]).

...Pain.

 

[Tomfer]

Kang LS Change

 

[Excellence616]

So yeah, I now have:

• A Marvel Magic Sandbox (though I am gradually making progress).
  • A complimentary sandbox of who knows and/or resists which type of magic
• An Astral Form Sandbox (which is tied to the Magic Sandbox)
• A Marvel Mind-Hax sandbox (which is very much tied to the Astral sandbox since virtually all Marvel telepathy involves Astral realm stuff [spoilers: Marvel mind-hax stocks are going to be very high]).

...Pain.

What of those that can interact with Astral and those with Mind Hax resistance?

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Would this be enough for HDE for wiccan and Dormammu?

Spoiler: THE LAST ANNIHILATION:HULKLING AND WICCAN

When I get to my PC I can get a better scan

 

[Excellence616]

Would this be enough for HDE for wiccan and Dormammu?

Spoiler: THE LAST ANNIHILATION:HULKLING AND WICCAN

When I get to my PC I can get a better scan

Dormammu has HDE, Wiccan's profile was deleted iirc

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Dormammu has HDE, Wiccan's profile was deleted iirc

Dormammu has possibly not full HDE and I will think if I can make Wiccan profile since I made hulkling.

 

[Eseseso]

What of those that can interact with Astral and those with Mind Hax resistance?

That'll be discussed once the sandboxes are finished.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

1. Why is Chaos & Order's nonduality exclusive to their logos form while their omniversal selves don't have it?
2. The Living Tribunal's m-bodies have nature 2 nonduality, should I leave that alone and change the multiversal version?

1. Transduality applying to their omniversal selves makes sense, yes. Since they transcend their universal aspects and thus all of duality relative to that scope of reality (While personifying a higher system of it themselves)

2. It's appropriate. Leave it as is.

 

[Eseseso]

1. Transduality applying to their omniversal selves makes sense, yes. Since they transcend their universal aspects and thus all of duality relative to that scope of reality (While personifying a higher system of it themselves)

2. It's appropriate. Leave it as is.

Yay, you're back on the site!

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Yay, you're back on the site!

My determination to finish Part 3 has been renewed I find.

 

[Eseseso]

My determination to finish Part 3 has been renewed I find.

How's that coming along, btw?

I know it's lengthy, since you are likely also revising the gods' and mystic beings' P&A (it's ok if you're not, I'm just assuming since you did that for the Abstracts), I am just curious as to how much progress you've made.

 

[Dust_Collector]

So yeah, I now have:

• A Marvel Magic Sandbox (though I am gradually making progress).
  • A complimentary sandbox of who knows and/or resists which type of magic
• An Astral Form Sandbox (which is tied to the Magic Sandbox)
• A Marvel Mind-Hax sandbox (which is very much tied to the Astral sandbox since virtually all Marvel telepathy involves Astral realm stuff [spoilers: Marvel mind-hax stocks are going to be very high]).

...Pain.

All I want to know about this is how high will Dracula stocks get after this? He's kinda so-so with his magic (Although he's got some pretty neat soul hax) but his mind hax is on par with Strange.

 

[Eseseso]

All I want to know about this is how high will Dracula stocks get after this? He's kinda so-so with his magic (Although he's got some pretty neat soul hax) but his mind hax is on par with Strange.

Well, Strange's mind-hax is likely "only" Low 1-C to 1-C, since it'd scale to Umar's magic potency and/or her higher-dimensionality, NOT her AP (though mind mind-hax sandbox could make all top-tier Marvel telepaths High 1-B to Low 1-A in mind hax), but Dracula will get a resistance to the basic powers of magic, which will include:

• Holy Manipulation
• Concept Manipulation (Type 1)
• Info Manipulation (Type 2)
• Space-Time Manip, Causality Manip, and Probability Manipulation
• Subjective Reality
• Soul Manipulation
• Reality Warping
• Memory Manipulation
• Fate Manipulation (probably)
• Probably Quantum Manipulation, Mathematics Manipulation, Matter Manipulation, and Physics Manipulation

Also, magic is likely going to be AT MINIMUM 4-D in nature, likely higher, so Drac could get smurf resistances.

Oh, and you said he had soul hax? Well, that soul hax is going to be A LOT more haxxy once the Astral Form sandbox finishes, since Astral Forms represent both mind and soul.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Neat, but I do wanna point out he probably shouldn't get resistance to holy manipulation due to the sheer amount times he's gotten screwed by anything religious. Unless we don't count that as holy manipulation.

 

[Eseseso]

Neat, but I do wanna point out he probably shouldn't get resistance to holy manipulation due to the sheer amount times he's gotten screwed by anything religious. Unless we don't count that as holy manipulation.

Depends on what screwed him over?

If it's a special religious item with special powers, it'd just be layered holy manipulation for that item which screwed him over.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Normal everyday crucifix's pretty much "lol nope" him

 

[Ultima_Reality]

How's that coming along, btw?

I know it's lengthy, since you are likely also revising the gods' and mystic beings' P&A (it's ok if you're not, I'm just assuming since you did that for the Abstracts), I am just curious as to how much progress you've made.

I already have the thread itself written up, mostly. I just have to revamp the profiles of the Gods and the more "magical" abstracts (Like Nightmare for instance), and that, as you might guess, will take a bit, since those number among the worst Marvel profiles in general.

 

[Eseseso]

Normal everyday crucifix's pretty much "lol nope" him

Really? Huh, I'll look into that, since it is stated and shown that magic works better against vampires yet Dracula easily tanks normal magic.

I already have the thread itself written up, mostly. I just have to revamp the profiles of the Gods and the more "magical" abstracts (Like Nightmare for instance), and that, as you might guess, will take a bit, since those number among the worst Marvel profiles in general.

Preach!

Nightmare and Uatu have atrocious P&A sections, and after my sandboxes are done I might do a P&A CRT for Uatu.

 

[Dust_Collector]

and that, as you might guess, will take a bit, since those number among the worst Marvel profiles in general.

Huh what do you mean, most of those profiles are great. Just look at Nightmare and his regeneration that doesn't even say what level it is, or his telepathy that has such solid justifications such as "both offensive and defensive", and of course the classic well sourced ability of "and many others".

Really? Huh, I'll look into that, since it is stated and shown that magic works better against vampires yet Dracula easily tanks normal magic.

Yeah when I was going through all his appearances when revamping his profile it was hard to go even one issue where some vague religious symbol didn't at the very least make him recoil, like at one point one of his enemies simply casts a shadow of a cross and it's enough to make him run away and just being in a church makes him weaker, even the mere sight of the Vatican caused him actual pain. Dude is super vulnerable to the stuff. Although if someone doesn't actually believe in the religion they use the symbols of (Let's say an atheist tried to use a crucifix or the star of david) then it just doesn't work on him at all. It's a weird mechanic where you gotta have actual faith in the god(s) of whatever holy symbol you use against him for it to work on him.

Only christianity kinda gets a pass on this since he explicitly hates their god the most so a church just mess him up no matter what, but like I said earlier stuff like a crucifix only actually works if you believe in the christian god. I guess the holy part of magic not affecting him kinda makes sense since I don't think someone like Strange is actively using magic attacks from someone he actually worships against him.

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

The sheer difference in quality between Doctor Doom's Power Cosmic tabber in comparison to the rest of his P&A

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

1. Transduality applying to their omniversal selves makes sense, yes. Since they transcend their universal aspects and thus all of duality relative to that scope of reality (While personifying a higher system of it themselves)

2. It's appropriate. Leave it as is.

All done. Marvel's officially the first verse to fully transition to our new nonduality standards. However, I do have to ask how Galactus is even supposed to have such a power, as nonduality aspect 2 is supposed to make you immune to any attack that doesn't also possess a comparable degree of nonduality, and Galactus clearly isn't so transcendent.

 

[HenshinIntervention]

Is my man's thing ever gonna be noticed

 

[Eseseso]

The sheer difference in quality between Doctor Doom's Power Cosmic tabber in comparison to the rest of his P&A

Oh yeah, no argument there. And his God Emperor Doom Key's P&A also sucks ass.

Tbh I think it should just say that he has all the Powers and Abilities of the Silver Surfer.

Though tbf, Doom's other sections weren't exactly great until I did some major revisions.

Ffs, his base key was given powers that only his skin armor had until I noticed them.

 

[LordTracer]

Tbh I think it should just say that he has all the Powers and Abilities of the Silver Surfer.

No, that’s cringe, list every single ability

 

[Eseseso]

No, that’s cringe, list every single ability

Btw would you mind opening the page so I can edit his Power Cosmic P&A key so it just states he has all the Surfer's abilities and links to the Silver Surfer's page?

 

[Antvasima]

Btw, something I've been arguing about in my head for a while:

So in case some of you are unaware, the popular feat of Doom surviving for millions of years to get revenge on the Marquis of Death was retconned in Dark Avengers #176-177, which obviously puts some of Doom's well-known feats from that arc into question.

After reading both the MoD arc and the arc in which he was rescued and connecting the dots, here is my analysis of all of Doom's original feats, and whether or not they're still legitimate or need to be edited on his profile:

• Surviving for millions of years and spent that time mastering dark arts: REMOVE. This is simple enough, the retcon caused him to get a time-travelling machine, which he used to travel to an unknown time period to get revenge on the Marquis of Death for horrifically physically torturing him, mind-torturing him, and wiping out Latveria.
• Changing his molecular structure so that the MoD couldn't torture his body again: LEANING KEEP. Nothing in the story actually contradicts this, especially since Doom was able to avoid being recognized by the Marquis of Death himself, who mastered and conquered time and space.
• Killing a Watcher: KEEP. It is shown that Doom killed the Watcher only during/after his training with the MoD for centuries, not during the (now-false) "millions of years", not to mention that we see the corpse in the present day, and the Marquis himself never claims to have killed the Watcher or that Doom is lying.
  • As to what happened to Doom's power after this, one official handbook did theorize that he sacrificed this power to bring back Latveria after the Marquis of Death had destroyed it.
• Outsmarting the MoD and hiding his identity for centuries: KEEP. That part of the story still happened, nothing retconned.

Also, I would just like to note that a good endurance feat for Doom is how, after all his torture, he was still able to speak and walk, before promptly hijacking the Thunderbolts' time machine. He was unable to really fight, but still very much healthy and walking despite his heart being turned to stone, his lungs to acid, and the Marquis of Death trying to kill his atoms.

In short: Anything on his profile that says "millions of years" regarding that story should be removed, the rest is likely fine.

Also, Doom should get resistance to Acid Manipulation and limited durability negation resistance, since not only did he survive the internal damage of "his heart turned to stone and his blood turned to acid" by the Marquis of Death and shows few negative effects to his innards from it in Dark Avengers 176-177, but its never shown melting through his skin, so his body apparently is resistant to acid.

This seems fine, yes.

 

[LordTracer]

Btw would you mind opening the page so I can edit his Power Cosmic P&A key so it just states he has all the Surfer's abilities and links to the Silver Surfer's page?

I’m a thread mod, I don’t have the power to open pages