The remains of the Tiering Revision, part 3

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the evaluation.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Yeah, changing it to "Non" changes the definition of the word and the power itself.

 

[Sniper670]

Yeah, changing it to "Non" changes the definition of the word and the power itself.

Yes. It does so for the better.

 

[ShivaShakti]

Yeah, changing it to "Non" changes the definition of the word and the power itself.

That is the point. The current definitions of the power are quite bad.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Yes. It does so for the better.

Oh, well if its just a case of us using the wrong word then yeah update it. We can always keep the name for being beyond a binary system anyways.

 

[deonment]

Yeah, changing it to "Non" changes the definition of the word and the power itself.

As Yemma and Kira stated above, it does so for the better as not only is Nonduality the correct term for the power, the current name and description of Transduality acts as though characters can only be above dualities to be outside of duality when that is objectively false, characters can be outside of duality without needing to transcend it, as characters who are gluts, gaps, monads and whatever else is out there are not within the normal limits of duality, yet as the page currently is it would be treated as though they would still be within it, that is why it needs to change.

 

[ShivaShakti]

I caanot say I agree with the renaming of the page, simply because the word "Trans" in this context means to exist beyond or above, while "Nondual" = "Not-two" means you don't participate in it but you are not above it.
All the current types of Transduality has them say "Characters that are beyond xoxoxoxo" Type 1 - type 5, while they are different but all of them really mean trans"a certain dual system or multiple", while "Non" does not mean beyond just "Not"

The case for refusing to use the word "Transduality"

1. We made it up. It isn't even a real word.

2. The conception of being Nondual, is simply to be without duality or distinction. This is more often how this state of being is actually described. There aren't many examples I can refer to where a character is stated to "transcend all dichotomies" explicitly, but I can refer to many other instances where characters attain a state of non-duality by encompassing all dichotomies, or simply being one essence which exists in unity of all objects.

 

[PrinceofPein]

The case for refusing to use the word "Transduality"

1. We made it up. It isn't even a real word.

2. The conception of being Nondual, is simply to be without duality or distinction. This is more often how this state of being is actually described. There aren't many examples I can refer to where a character is stated to "transcend all dichotomies" explicitly, but I can refer to many other instances where characters attain a state of non-duality by encompassing all dichotomies, or simply being one essence which exists in unity of all objects.

Well my contention is that most types describe it as beyond, so I guess their definitions needs to change and remove "beyond" from the definition, let's see if there is way they can be redefined to actually mean non-duality.

And transduality is not really made up, as trans as a prefix is used to denote something above. So Transduality would mean above/beyond duality in a literal sense

 

[Dereck03]

I actually agree with remane "Transduality" to "Non-Duality".

 

[ShivaShakti]

Well my contention is that most types describe it as beyond, so I guess their definitions needs to change and remove "beyond" from the definition, let's see if there is way they can be redefined to actually mean non-duality.

And transduality is not really made up, as trans as a prefix is used to denote something above. So Transduality would mean above/beyond duality in a literal sense

I have a greater revision for the ability itself in progress, currently. I still need Ultima to edit it.

 

[Fixxed]

As far as i read this thread, i think you can have Transduality by becomes the 3th truth state. I mean become the "glut" (both true and false) or the "gap" (neither true nor false)

The "glut" and "gap" is outside from dualities, i dont think it above duality

So i agree with nonduality. I think to have Transduality you just have to not limit by duality

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Change it to Nonduality.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, we should preferably wait for confirmations from DontTalk and Ultima.

 

[Fixxed]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

@DontTalkDT @Ultima_Reality

We would still appreciate your input here:

https://vsbattles.com/threads/the-remains-of-the-tiering-revision-part-3.126818/post-5008401

 

[DontTalkDT]

Well, since I lost interest in doing my draft (although I can try to pick it back up again later), I can only suggest that Transduality should be renamed to Nonduality. Even setting aside the age-old argument of "nondual" being the proper term in philosophy and theology, it seems that we are basing the power on dialethic and many-valued logic, in which case we should no longer need to specify transcendence - as long as they partake in both sides at once, neither side, or a completely different side altogether, then they should just be nondual regarding some or all dual distinctions. No need to require a higher level of ontology.

Also, while I appreciate the effort to give more rigorous examples of Transduality/Nonduality, I think we're better off sticking with the classic 0/1 example, for simplicity's sake. Just a minor thing, I won't protest if it gets rejected, but even truth values are generalized as falsehood being 0 and truth being 1 (Boolean stuff is a good example of this), so I'd say it has a sound logical basis at least.

I have to disagree. Nonduality is not a fitting power for the wiki as it has no standardized effects for its users. A nondual, but not transcendent, character neither is capable of doing anything specific nor unaffected by anything specific. It would be a power that would have no consequence being on a profile in itself.
100% of all effects of the power would need to be explained on the profile and beyond that it would have no effect. Since we have power pages for the sake of simplifying explanations it make few sense to have an ability that does nothing beyond what is explained IMO.

 

[ShivaShakti]

I have to disagree. Nonduality is not a fitting power for the wiki as it has no standardized effects for its users. A nondual, but not transcendent, character neither is capable of doing anything specific nor unaffected by anything specific. It would be a power that would have no consequence being on a profile in itself.
100% of all effects of the power would need to be explained on the profile and beyond that it would have no effect. Since we have power pages for the sake of simplifying explanations it make few sense to have an ability that does nothing beyond what is explained IMO.

You do realize that Transduality is often gained by coition and not transcendence?

And there are many consequences which Nonduality would have on the wiki, arguably even more than Transduality.

A character who is nondual by coition, would have identified itself with every aspect of the world, and the world itself. Every object would be an extension of themself, due to their lack of separation. You would require a feat to interact with this.

And then there are other forms of being Non-Distinctness which are present in conceptions such as The Tao and Buddhist emptiness. Where they participate in no dichotomy and are thus not extended anywhere into any category, rendering them similarly difficult to interact with.

 

[DontTalkDT]

You do realize that Transduality is often gained by coition and not transcendence?

Ehhhh... my english isn't quite up to speed here. What does coition mean?

A character who is nondual by coition, would have identified itself with every aspect of the world, and the world itself. Every object would be an extension of themself, due to their lack of separation. You would require a feat to interact with this.

And then there are other forms of being Non-Distinctness which are present in conceptions such as The Tao and Buddhist emptiness. Where they participate in no dichotomy and are thus not extended anywhere into any category, rendering them similarly difficult to interact with.

That sounds like possible uses of the power, but not uses shared between all users. You can of course do virtually anything with some specific form of non-duality, but the problem I mentioned is the lack of any power shared between all users.

 

[Agnaa]

Ehhhh... my english isn't quite up to speed here. What does coition mean?

One dictionary gives a definition of it as "a meeting", but the rest of the definitions I found were just defining it as sex.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Ehhhh... my english isn't quite up to speed here. What does coition mean?

One dictionary gives a definition of it as "a meeting", but the rest of the definitions I found were just defining it as sex.

Yeah, intercourse is what my dictionary said as well, so I'm very confused.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

A nondual, but not transcendent, character neither is capable of doing anything specific nor unaffected by anything specific. It would be a power that would have no consequence being on a profile in itself.

A character that is untouched by dual systems, even if not necessarily transcendent over them, would still have resistance to abilities that involve said systems. Just like a character who lacks spacetime but is not of a superior nature to it would still have resistance to Spacetime Manipulation. So it's pretty wrong to say that it'd have no inherent applications.

Nevermind the fact that "Nondualism" is the actual name of the concept. "Transduality" is just a term we made up.

 

[deonment]

Ehhhh... my english isn't quite up to speed here. What does coition mean?

In this case, it would mean Unity, the unification of dualities specifically, to compare this would be characters who hold a state similar to Taiji, but with or without the aspect of transcendence it holds over Yin and Yang.

 

[DontTalkDT]

A character that is untouched by dual systems, even if not necessarily transcendent over them, would still have resistance to abilities that involve said systems. Just like a character who lacks spacetime but is not of a superior nature to it would still have resistance to Spacetime Manipulation. So it's pretty wrong to say that it'd have no inherent applications.

No that would actually not be the case. A nondual character can possibly (although not necessarily) be touched by dual system if they are not transcendent to it.

Nonduality just means that you are in a state neither A or not A. So, say you are nondual regarding the distinction of "getting hit" and "not getting hit". What would then happen if someone throws a stone at you? The answer is, that what would happen is impossible to predict just from the given information. It can't be that you get hit or that you not get hit, but the action can still have some consequence in the altered system of logic you obey. You could, for instance, go from your current nondual state into another nondual state, which is different in nature. It could for instance be a nondual state that is in practice similar to being dead. That's not a result that is logically excluded.

In fact, it could also simply be "get a wound". You get neither hit nor not hit, but the wound still appears in the logic system in question. There is no logical reason why that can't be the response of just any nondual logic system.

A nondual logic system adds more possibilities as for what could happen, but it doesn't really add any restrictions as for what can't happen.

So no, a nondual character actually has no resistance to dual systems per default, because in the nondual system they are in dual actions can still have consequences.

Nevermind the fact that "Nondualism" is the actual name of the concept. "Transduality" is just a term we made up.

Transduality is a term we made up, because the ability isn't just nonduality, but nonduality + transcendence. Calling it nonduality with current definition wouldn't make much sense.

In this case, it would mean Unity, the unification of dualities specifically, to compare this would be characters who hold a state similar to Taiji, but with or without the aspect of transcendence it holds over Yin and Yang.

I see. But yeah, a character which is nondual in a way that fuses him with everything in existence (i.e. basically just omnipresence via nonduality) is of no relevance to the subject matter, because it is a specific ability that could be achieved by some characters via nonduality, but can't be assumed to be that for just any character. It's a possible application, not a necessary one.

 

[Antvasima]

DontTalk seems to make better sense above so far, but I am not a very good person to ask.

 

[Fixxed]

In fact, it could also simply be "get a wound". You get neither hit nor not hit, but the wound still appears in the logic system in question. There is no logical reason why that can't be the response of just any nondual logic system.

A nondual logic system adds more possibilities as for what could happen, but it doesn't really add any restrictions as for what can't happen.

So you mean, the character have to completely unbound or not limit by the duality system it self, so every effect that appear because the duality system would not reach the character???

 

[DontTalkDT]

So you mean, the character have to completely unbound or not limit by the duality system it self, so every effect that appear because the duality system would not reach the character???

For transduality you need feats/statements that the character is unaffected by the thing they are transdual over, independent of power. So even infinitely strong attacks using the duality may not have any effect (at least if they are on the same level of reality). That's what I mean when I say that transduality requires transcendence.

If a nondual character can prove that, then they get the ability. But nondual characters that can't show as much shouldn't have transduality by current definition. We would likewise not assume such a nondual character resistant/immune to their duality by default.

 

[Fixxed]

For transduality you need feats/statements that the character is unaffected by the thing they are transdual over, independent of power. So even infinitely strong attacks using the duality may not have any effect (at least if they are on the same level of reality). That's what I mean when I say that transduality requires transcendence

Nah i have a questions from long time ago, can you give your opinion about this? This is related about transduality

https://vsbattles.com/threads/transduality-type-2-problem.124244/

 

[Antvasima]

For transduality you need feats/statements that the character is unaffected by the thing they are transdual over, independent of power. So even infinitely strong attacks using the duality may not have any effect (at least if they are on the same level of reality). That's what I mean when I say that transduality requires transcendence.

If a nondual character can prove that, then they get the ability. But nondual characters that can't show as much shouldn't have transduality by current definition. We would likewise not assume such a nondual character resistant/immune to their duality by default.

If that is the case, we would also likely have to launch a massive project to check through all of our current character pages with the ability listed, to see if each and every one of them still fit after the change.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Nonduality just means that you are in a state neither A or not A.

That sounds like an attempt to initiate a semantics argument. Nondualism, for the purposes of this wiki (And also this particular discussion) and in regards to a good chunk of fiction, is just being exempt from a particular dichotomy consisting of a given concept and its opposite. So, for instance, if you lack the concepts of Existence and Nonexistence, then abilities that manipulate with and interfere with these two would not be able to take effect on you, since you lack the qualities that they interface with in the first place, just like Soul Manipulation would have no effect on a character that has no soul. Same would apply to other things that a character could lack (Such as, for instance, cause/effect, or life/death)

 

[Agnaa]

That's not how we define it and not really what nondualism is outside of the wiki, afaik, (which is of importance since the name of it outside of the wiki is being used to reason that its name should be changed).

A nondual statement does not have to be "unable to be interfered with by something that effects true statements". At least, not any more than a true statement is "unable to be interfered with by something that effects false statements".

Or like, if something's power was to set the truth value of statements to "false" despite the logic within them, that would be able to work on a statement that is paradoxical; despite its nondual nature, it is not immune to abilities that function on dualities.

Or in yet other words, you'd obviously agree that a being's "death value" being set to "false" (i.e. meaning that they're alive) doesn't make them immune to that "death value" being set to true, so why would a being whose "death value" is a gap or a glut also be immune to that?

As DT says, the stuff you're arguing can be true for some characters, but isn't for the simplest logical definitions of nonduality from outside of the wiki, making a rename strange.

 

[deonment]

For transduality you need feats/statements that the character is unaffected by the thing they are transdual over, independent of power. So even infinitely strong attacks using the duality may not have any effect (at least if they are on the same level of reality). That's what I mean when I say that transduality requires transcendence.

So then nothing sort of a character made for battle boarding would receive the power, as there is naught a character in fiction that has a statement of the sort to my knowledge, in fact even Daoism (Using the Tao Te Ching alone as I am unsure of the statements contained ), the very thing we use as the basis for Transduality would not receive it for anything bar that Dao, and that is only because the Dao is wholly transcendent over the cosmology rather than anything else.

When the very thing we base the power on would not get it, it should be clear that there is an issue with how we treat the power.

 

[Agnaa]

So then nothing sort of a character made for battle boarding would receive the power, as there is naught a character in fiction that has a statement of the sort to my knowledge, in fact even Daoism (Using the Tao Te Ching alone as I am unsure of the statements contained ), the very thing we use as the basis for Transduality would not receive it for anything bar that Dao, and that is only because the Dao is wholly transcendent over the cosmology rather than anything else.

When the very thing we base the power on would not get it, it should be clear that there is an issue with how we treat the power.

If a close analysis shows that we based a power around something that confers no abilities, I see that as a far greater issue.

 

[Antvasima]

If that is the case, we would also likely have to launch a massive project to check through all of our current character pages with the ability listed, to see if each and every one of them still fit after the change.

Sorry about wording my last post here in an unclear manner. I tried to fix it.

 

[Antvasima]

That's not how we define it and not really what nondualism is outside of the wiki, afaik, (which is of importance since the name of it outside of the wiki is being used to reason that its name should be changed).

A nondual statement does not have to be "unable to be interfered with by something that effects true statements". At least, not any more than a true statement is "unable to be interfered with by something that effects false statements".

Or like, if something's power was to set the truth value of statements to "false" despite the logic within them, that would be able to work on a statement that is paradoxical; despite its nondual nature, it is not immune to abilities that function on dualities.

Or in yet other words, you'd obviously agree that a being's "death value" being set to "false" (i.e. meaning that they're alive) doesn't make them immune to that "death value" being set to true, so why would a being whose "death value" is a gap or a glut also be immune to that?

As DT says, the stuff you're arguing can be true for some characters, but isn't for the simplest logical definitions of nonduality from outside of the wiki, making a rename strange.

Anyway, I think that DontTalk and Agnaa seem to make sense above, but I am still not a very good person to ask.

 

[PrinceofPein]

So then nothing sort of a character made for battle boarding would receive the power, as there is naught a character in fiction that has a statement of the sort to my knowledge, in fact even Daoism (Using the Tao Te Ching alone as I am unsure of the statements contained ), the very thing we use as the basis for Transduality would not receive it for anything bar that Dao, and that is only because the Dao is wholly transcendent over the cosmology rather than anything else.

When the very thing we base the power on would not get it, it should be clear that there is an issue with how we treat the power.

There are multiple characters who have statement/feats that they are not affected by the dualities they transcend so this is not an issue

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Or in yet other words, you'd obviously agree that a being's "death value" being set to "false" (i.e. meaning that they're alive) doesn't make them immune to that "death value" being set to true, so why would a being whose "death value" is a gap or a glut also be immune to that?

I would, yes, as we agreed elsewhere. In the above message, I was thinking less this, and something that'd be moreso defined "The character has no values corresponding to life or death to begin with."

 

[Agnaa]

It's more that:

• The page as it currently exists doesn't only include characters who have no values. In fact, that only seems to apply to the highest type of this ability.
• A lot of stuff that lies outside of conventional duality in ordinary philosophy does so without jumping to the extent of having no values.

 

[DontTalkDT]

If that is the case, we would also likely have to launch a massive project to check through all of our current character pages with the ability listed, to see if each and every one of them still fit after the change.

That should be what they are currently listed like, not a change to the power. Our current definition requires transdual characters to be "qualitatively beyond" their duality, not just independent of it.

So arguably there should be no revisions necessary, aside the usual fixing of mistakes people make.

That sounds like an attempt to initiate a semantics argument. Nondualism, for the purposes of this wiki (And also this particular discussion) and in regards to a good chunk of fiction, is just being exempt from a particular dichotomy consisting of a given concept and its opposite. So, for instance, if you lack the concepts of Existence and Nonexistence, then abilities that manipulate with and interfere with these two would not be able to take effect on you, since you lack the qualities that they interface with in the first place, just like Soul Manipulation would have no effect on a character that has no soul. Same would apply to other things that a character could lack (Such as, for instance, cause/effect, or life/death)

Transduality doesn't lack existence or nonexistence, though. Lacking it would mean "is it existent" has a truth value of 0 (false). However, a transdual character definitely wouldn't have a truth value of 0. It would have a different truth value altogether (neither 0 nor 1). The conclusion that this other truth value would behave as if the character had a truth value of 0 is unjustified.

In fact, I don't think on this wiki or outside of this, that would be the general assumption. Nonduality isn't a state that is typically is uniquely characterized by nothingness / lacking things.

 

[Fixxed]

I think, if Transduality make the character completely uneffected by duality, and the Nonduality dont, then we must use "Transduality"

Yeah as far as i read, i think DT makes more sense

 

[Antvasima]

As usual, I also think that DontTalk makes the most sense.