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The Problem with Fighting Game Verses

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It may also depend on how many people are present in this civilization?, it could be a group of 100 people or much higher.
 
...

(I didn't want to join on this...)

Does Wonderful World apply as well? I'm trying all I can to make a legitimate Tierlist for the verse. The problems in question though include:

  • Aiwhe has been proven to Dodge Lightning from Duna, which although not evaluated yet is at least Massively Hypersonic+ if we count the first frame of her EX Original Ability; which it is that fast at startup alone. Besides, you'd have to catchup with Aiwhen in battle alone to even go that fast.
Basically a game of Cat vs Mouse, except the Mouse is a fragile speedster.

  • Lore. I've been working ALL over the clock on this for feats. Since an actual story doesn't exist for the verse yet, I have no choice but to rely on what is mentioned already. This may even include the "Non-Canon Parallel" of the verse called a World of Darkness. It's implied that everyone in Arcade Mode has to fight Sabe as the final boss. There also exists lore in OMAKE, & other parts of that game alone. While in immense depth, it's not fully realized...
  • Semnia's Full power needs to be known. She is stated by a Twitter post by Ainefill himself to be able to create an Abyss Vortex at 1000m wide (500m Radius). While it may not seem reliable at first, he promised to show these feats in action. Chartette's Terra Break is also stated to make huge holes that Ainefill didn't define numerically. Her twin sister is even stated to fight Kaiju 150m in size. that's ALOT for a Kaiju... It's a fallacy now, but trust me, it will be true in the near future...
  • I just wanted to do Chaos Code as a verse again, but with this, I'm having doubts. No comment unless you know it's more biased than Wonderful World...
Since there is no real way for me to make a tierlist outside of scaling, I'll also do one last Calc Request in the future regarding the length of an arena, and how much joules is required for Chartette to destroy an arena like, say: the Makai; if it did destroy the arena in the first place. The verse can scale from that; not Claudette's Deadly Blow. That can't be scaled as most of the cast is 1-shoted by this move unless you have at least 800 health; which by the verse's standards; IS ALOT.

I apologize for this post, but I'm still working as I am defending this claim. See? At least there is one move in this verse not everyone can have durability from.

Anyways, how big is 1000m on avg anyway? Tickle me interested, as it seems big, bigger than a City Block perhaps... I'll zip it from here. Wonderful World seems polished to me. I'm in the Neutral Zone on this...
 
I actually agree to this because prior to our revision on KOF, the series had this problem. It took many revisions and scaling to see who scales to who or what.

The issue with fighting game verses is due to the shallow stories, which is most focused on progression and including new characters over consistency, and having many endings that are hard to determine it's canon, powerscaling is rather a difficult task. I actually had a problem with the scaling of SF because of what you stated but I didn't say anything due to my lack of knowledge of the verse.
 
Dark649 said:
Gaming: The Killer Instinct scaling was being discussed in another thread by Clyde. The Elder Gods are fine.
Click to expand...
Yep, me. On that topic, HellBeast and I were discussing the last issue of the KI comic, which gives us a lot of info for the tiers actually. Gargos, Eyedol, True Form Aganos and Final Form Aganos are as of now the God tiers, all at Moon lvl scaling from Gargos' atmospheric dispersion. Eyedol scales since his fight with him was the epithome of a clash and their blows were compared to the destruction of celestial bodies. True Form Aganos held his own against and BFR'd Final Form Gargos, who was stated and shown to be above his previous form since he bested Tusk, Kim and Jago despite them being a match for him before. Final Form Gargos also has the feat of having drained the energy of earth to the point of unleashing natural disasters all over the globe. Jago, Kim, Tusk and Hisako scale since Tusk's sword atomized Gargos and the others helped him.
 
I agree, Fighting games are among the most complicated verse categories to judge power scaling. Though, is Chun-Li really considered one of the stronger Street Fighter characters? IIRC, she's often portrayed as a character who's almost always needing to be rescued. I agree that only god tiers should scale to Akuma as he's literally the strongest character in the verse in his Oni form.

And Mortal Kombat scaling is even worse tbh, I'm honestly surprised Goro and Kintaro are treated as fodder characters, but it makes sense since considering Goro lost to Striker of all people in MK 9. Scaling people (except god tiers such as Shao Kahn) to Raiden makes little to no sense as he either stomps a character or severely holds back. And yeah, 3-B stuff always felt super wanked IMO.

Speaking of which, Dead or Alive, I'm a little iffy on that game's tiering. Ryu is the god tier thanks to his Ninja Gaiden feats, and I hear that series is the same Universe as Ninja Gaiden, but I'm a little skeptical about his first key or that some of the characters being That much weaker than Ryu. Ayane does appear as a playable character in Razor's Edge; and while weaker than Ryu, she's not overwhelmingly weaker. Obvious thing, absolutely no one scales to Ryu's True Dragon Sword.

And the worst part about Fighting games is probably the use of Guest characters and Crossovers. We got people wanting to give Arbiter from Halo a key scaling from other Killer Instinct characters or scaling Punch Out characters to Donkey Kong. But Crossovers are even worse; people wanting to give every single Nintendo character a Low 2-C key scaling from Master Hand or Tabuu.
 
Mortal Kombat, Street Fighter and Tekken were recently revised thanks to Dark, and I am satifisied with the individual revisions for all 3.

Blazblue and Guilty Gear is another matter, which Ever is gonna revise the first one and it looks good so far.

Guilty Gear is just a mess imo

I am neutral on Skull Girls.

Ask bluedash or weekly, I really have no clue about this verse.

Yeah, I agree.
 
Yeah, Dark is probably one of our best fighting game experts here. Another problem with Street Fighter in the past was all our Rubber Tanks/Stone Walls/Iron Pistols (Or whatever the official Antonym of Glass Cannon is) like Sagat and Dhalsim.
 
There is a hole in your logic in the Street Fighter part, Matt... Chun-Li isn't top tier at all, she is the Vegeta of the verse in "record of wins and losses" (Got her ass kicked by Charlie [Street Fighter V prologue], lost against Bison almost every single time [She needed help from Guile in SF 2 according to the wikia], got her ass kicked by Juri and got her ass kicked by C. Viper [Street Fighrer IV])

So makes sense several people scale to her. Ryu for example who beat the living out of Seth who was stronger than anyone else in the roster but Akuma and Gouken [Street Fighter IV], pulled a double ko with Charlie [Street Fighter V] and managed to beat normal Bison [Street Fighter V])
 
Sure, Chun-Li isn't a god-tier, but she's one of the strongest fighters. You can't scale Poison from her, for instance.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Speaking of which, Dead or Alive, I'm a little iffy on that game's tiering. Ryu is the god tier thanks to his Ninja Gaiden feats, and I hear that series is the same Universe as Ninja Gaiden, but I'm a little skeptical about his first key or that some of the characters being That much weaker than Ryu. Ayane does appear as a playable character in Razor's Edge; and while weaker than Ryu, she's not overwhelmingly weaker. Obvious thing, absolutely no one scales to Ryu's True Dragon Sword.
Click to expand...
I'm actually planning on going through the series in the near future. I always feel that Dead or Alive / Ninja Gaiden needs further analysis. Also Virtua Fighter, as that's canon to the series (Given unskippable fights with Virtua Fighter characters in the Dead or Alive V story mode).

I'm interested in the plot
 
Alright, I want to say this regarding MK (which should honestly be its own thread)

First off, we don't scale everyone to 'god tier' raiden. We scale him to his physical body which created a storm.

This physical body has fought people in this 'weakened' state such as Shao Khan, Liu Kang, Onaga etc. Basically, the all the top tiers scale fine.

Like, this is in the entire MK canon as well, so I have no issue.

I see an issue with pre time skip, which I could make a thread regarding this alongside Dark, but even if I dont, I think we can hammer it out here, Pre Timeskip scaling is honestly easier, considering the 'story mode' is a thing only recently introduced and we scale off endings.

For example. Liu Kang > Shao Kahn and Shang Tsung.

Kabal < Mavada (Beat him half to death and took his hook swords)

Sub Zero (Noob Saibot) < Scorpion

etc etc

Post timeskip is fine, I see no issue.

Second off, scaling in fighting games is indeed a travesty, but we are now gonna have to fix at least five verses because of it.

For MK and SF, those are easy.

Some of the other verses? They will need to be highlighted and knocked out one by one.
 
Sorry to be impatient but i need this figured out and then i'll be able to sort out a part of the issue brought up here

Pleeeease?
 
@Kink

"First off, we don't scale everyone to 'god tier' raiden. We scale him to his physical body which created a storm.

This physical body has fought people in this 'weakened' state such as Shao Khan, Liu Kang, Onaga etc. Basically, the all the top tiers scale fine."

Still not acceptable. His physical body is still superior to 95% of the cast.

The issue comes with scaling people to that based on the giant webs of scaling which I criticized in my original post, being unable to realize which fights are PIS or Outliers. Thinking that Goro is fodder because Striker beat him is nonsense, it's far more likely that doing that is an outlier for Striker.

And it's not easy at all. Street Fighter and Mortal Kombat are in the worst state.
 
Chun Li is able to take on F.A.N.G, who is the weakest Shadoloo general, a coward who is just as bad as in gameplay .

Note: Her fighting a not serious Urien will be retconned since he says that she took down Shadoloo, when now we know that things went diffently and in V Urien was one that studied its fall.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
@Kink
"First off, we don't scale everyone to 'god tier' raiden. We scale him to his physical body which created a storm.

This physical body has fought people in this 'weakened' state such as Shao Khan, Liu Kang, Onaga etc. Basically, the all the top tiers scale fine."

Still not acceptable. His physical body is still superior to 95% of the cast.

The issue comes with scaling people to that based on the giant webs of scaling which I criticized in my original post, being unable to realize which fights are PIS or Outliers. Thinking that Goro is fodder because Striker beat him is nonsense, it's far more likely that doing that is an outlier for Striker.
Click to expand...
Not it isnt? You can't just say it wasn't acceptable and ignore the fights that led up to it.

It was consistently potrayed in verse that Raiden has fought the top tiers of the verse.

Raiden has fought Liu Kang and even Liu Kang overpowered him at times, he has fought a combined army of the fodder that were killed by Sindell (and it looked like he was doing fine)

He fodderized Scorpion.

Like, I see no issue here.

And also, last I checked, he doesnt scale to 95 percent of the cast (except pre time skip, gonna get to that later)

He only scales to the top tiers of the verse, which everyone can mostly agree on.

Shang Tsung and Quan Chi, Sindell, Shao Khan, Liu Kang, etc etc

Sure, they might have been 'stronger' or 'weaker', they still have fought Raiden on evenish ground.

Rejected on the mortal kombat point.

I will get into street fighter later...maybe.

Tekken is far more strict on scaling, so I guess I am for tekken.

Talked to ever in pm regarding BB, so I agree with that one.

Edit: I should clarify cuz I was tired, post timeskip is the new 'timeline'.

My bad on my part.
 
He does scale to 95% of the cast. I went through the pages. And many of the characters scaled off him anyway don't deserve such scaling.

The Mortal Kombat profiles are lazy both with the scaling and other things as well, just like having poor descriptions of characters, powers, stats, etc.

Overall the series needs a complete overhall, and the Verse page still has a lot of text that is plagiarism of the OBD wiki.
 
Sindel was amped by Shao Kahn himself along with Shang Tsung and countless other souls, she effortless killed all the heroes and required Nightwolf to kill himself. Liu Kang and Raiden never fought or saw Empowered Sindel, it is never stated that she is said to implied to be weaker than them.
 
Well yeah, I was pretty positive that Goro loosing to Striker was PIS, but Goro and Kintaro do still very consistently get their asses kicked. Liu Kang doing so is fine, but Kung Lao beating both of them or Cyber Sub-Zero taking out both of them at once was where the fodder part came from. And MKX is even worse in instances like that. And I agree with Matt, physical avatars or not, Raiden and Shao Kahn are overwhelmingly greater than most mortals except for ones such as Liu Kang. Raiden also holds back in his fights against Sonya for example, and Sonya is very fodder.

Also, I personally feel like Goro and Kintaro should be treated as being Physically superior to most of the cast but have weak minds and are possibly slower.
 
I agree with Dark and Dragon.

I also went through the pages just now, most of the ones that scale have fairly valid reasons for doing so, with a few exceptions.

The Cage family, Scorpion and Sub-Zero, Noob Saibot are probably the only ones that need to be rescaled

Even then, 95 percent, that is a clear exagerration, only 18 of the thirty/forty or so profiles dont scale to this feat.

Most of which are heavy hitters you would expect to scale:

Quan Chi, Shang Tsung, Liu Kang, Onaga etc
 
BMHKain said:
...

(I didn't want to join on this...)

Does Wonderful World apply as well? I'm trying all I can to make a legitimate Tierlist for the verse. The problems in question though include:
Click to expand...
Matt, I understand where you're going on this, but the verse I mentioned in my previous post has me wondering about your perspective on this verse. As stated, the strongest attack in the verse, dmg wise can't be scaled as it oneshots so much of the verse, meaning my best bet is to request a calc where Chartette (Wonderful World) does Terra Break and do a what if scenario if the area was destroyed, even though game mechanics fail at this. Ainefill stated a while back it can make a huge hole. I'm merely curious as to how large... Plus, even though Uruca isn't mentioned in the OMAKE, she is confirmed as a friend of Felmina. This was shown in Ainefill's response to his fans; the most recent version being nearly a year old. Would you approve of this, sir?
 
Dark649 said:
Sindel was amped by Shao Kahn himself along with Shang Tsung and countless other souls, she effortless killed all the heroes and required Nightwolf to kill himself. Liu Kang and Raiden never fought or saw Empowered Sindel, it is never stated that she is said to implied to be weaker than them.
Click to expand...
Both are certain that they could have stopped her had they been there.
 
Also, someone above mentioned Kung Lao defeating Shao Kahn? I never seen that happen at least not in MK9. What I saw was after defeating Goro, Ermac, Kintaro, and Shang Tsung and Quan Chi combined, he started celebrating his victory and was suddenly OHK'd by Shao Kahn.
 
Mortal Kombat is poor in conditions because the old character summaries where deleted, and for a verse as big as MK fixing all the stuff for one Admin alone is energy consuming.

- Cassie and Johnny are scaled to the infamous green energy PIS that defeated Shinnok.

- Scorpion and Dragon Medallion Sub-Zero are scaled to the MKX Komic stuff like Scorpion beating a Corrupted Brutal Raiden and confident to kill him, Sub fought that Scorpion with the Dragon Medallion that enhanced his powers and froze a city over time.

- Bi-Han was empowered by the Icons that allowed him to fight and win against Fujin and the other elementals.

- Original Timeline Quan Chi and Shang Tsung were said to be threats by Raiden, Quan Chi fought Bi-Han with the Icons, both fought Onaga alongside Raiden. Shang Tsung killed Liu Kang with a sneak attack.

- Reiko became a Blood God, after receiving blood from Raiden and a lot of other fighters, according to Nitara a blood god is comparable to the other ones like Raiden, however Reiko needed blood to sustain himself, and so he melted.

- Daegon and Taven because they bested Raiden and Fujin in combat, they were not holding back if i remember corretly.

- For Sindel, yes two 7-C's are indeed enough to stop her.
 
While i agree that Striker defeating Kintaro could be seen as PIS, but the latter got literally killed by a possessed Sonya Blade that simply grabbed his head. For Chun, Numbers said already what i wanted to say.
 
Thanks Glass, for Guilty Gear only I-No, casual Sol or Sin likely canonically fought Jack-O , who has two personalities happy go lucky and serious. I'm ok about that her 5-C+ calc is considered for scaling other characters since I-No fought her happy state. For Blazblue and Killer Instict are handled by users that knows the verse. Note: Chun Lee got even hit by Birdie at 2:30.or Balrog defeating Necalli .
 
I can literally rescale the entire Skullgirls vere and take care of one of the verses in question here if my question is answered :p
 
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