The Not-So-Great Odyssean Quest to Downgrade God of War ⌈Minor Removals⌋

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Can't find a good place for these changes in the main series of downgrades, so here's a bonus thread ig. This one's nice and easy.

Zeus' Breath Attack

Currently, Zeus' breath attack justification says the following:

Breath Attack (Easily blew away a wall with his breath[15])

This is not true. Looking at the original scan, it's clearly stated that he blew up the wall with a lightning bolt, and then blew away the resulting cloud of dust. Thus, the justification should be changed to something like "can generate windstorms with his breath".

Kratos' Combat Intelligence

One of Kratos' more notable skill feats occurs towards the end of GoW 1, where he is sent to a dimension and forced to fend off numerous copies of himself. The current justification for this is written as follows:

During his battle with Ares, he also fought against multiple younger clones of himself who were stated to be much stronger, faster, more agile, more skilled and considerably more bloodlusted, and Kratos brutally killed all of them, threatening Ares to send more and saying that none would ever reach his family.[120]

Most of this is okay, save for the "more skilled" part. As explained in the official manual, the clones Kratos fights are explicitly less skilled than him, due to lacking his training and experience. The scan cited in the justification doesn't even say they were more skilled than him, either. So, that needs to be removed.

Demigod Kratos' Resistance to Power Nullification

Zeus' lightning can nullify powers. In GoW 1, Kratos can tank this lightning thrown by his clones. without having his powers nullified. Simple, right? Well, not exactly; The power nullification aspect of Zeus' lightning only occurs at the highest level (since all GoW games have you "level up" your magic and items to unlock new abilities). The clones throwing this lightning are explicitly said to use it at only the most basic level; Thus, they would not have access to the variety of Zeus' lightning that negates magic.

This doesn't require any edits (I don't think so, anyways) but it's probably important to note that Ares' whole "force an opponent to fight copies of themselves" thing doesn't summon perfect copies, mostly weaker versions that don't have all of the original's skill and abilities.

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

Agree

 

[Eseseso]

This seems fine

 

[Minos_the_Judge]

Agree with all

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

Most of it seems fine except this,

The power nullification aspect of Zeus' lightning only occurs at the highest level (since all GoW games have you "level up" your magic and items to unlock new abilities).

What part of this tell us Zeus's nullifying abilities work when only uppgared? The only description we have of his magic is that it innately negates abilities.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Most of it seems fine except this,

What part of this tell us Zeus's nullifying abilities work when only uppgared? The only description we have of his magic is that it innately negates abilities.

That doesn't say every single spell nullifies magic, it's just listing off what each god specializes in. Hades has soul and life absorption stuff but not every attack in Ascension's multiplayer absorbs health and destroys souls, for example. In Ascension, every spell can be upgraded, and Reckoning of Zeus only silences enemies once fully upgraded; The guide is formatted poorly since it seems to be listing off every upgrade in a single paragraph, but the order is basically "summon a lightning bolt at level 1, the bolt explodes at level 2, and the explosion silences enemies at level 3".

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

That doesn't say every single spell nullifies magic, it's just listing off what each god specializes in. Hades has soul and life absorption stuff but not every attack in Ascension's multiplayer absorbs health and destroys souls, for example. In Ascension, every spell can be upgraded, and Reckoning of Zeus only silences enemies once fully upgraded; The guide is formatted poorly since it seems to be listing off every upgrade in a single paragraph, but the order is basically "summon a lightning bolt at level 1, the bolt explodes at level 2, and the explosion silences enemies at level 3".

It does, it's a description of it.

"Electric magic"
"Stuns and disables enemy magic"

And again, where does it say that? Is it silencing? Which if, that's incredibly vague and with evidence against to boot.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

It does, it's a description of it.

"Electric magic"
"Stuns and disables enemy magic"

...Yes, because it's describing the kind of magic each god specializes in. They have different spells with different effects; Refer back to my Hades example, where his champions mostly use soul/life absorbing attacks, but they also have other spells that don't do those things.

And again, where does it say that? Is it silencing? Which if, that's incredibly vague and with evidence against to boot.

It's quite literally how the game works, my man. You'll have to excuse the use of a third party guide, since I do not believe the game succinctly explains this anywhere, but you do in fact upgrade your magic to give it new properties.

You can see this with Reckoning of Zeus, where there is clearly a "rank 3" denoting that it has been upgraded. To the right is the list of effects attributed to each rank; Because the spell is rank 3, it gains a silence effect. So, someone who uses the magic at rank 1 would not nullify the target's magic, because it hasn't been upgraded to that level yet.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

This is a minor point, but you should also look at the grammar used. The use of "will now" and "now silences" implies the spell did not have these properties before, but now does (due to being upgraded). If the magic could innately do this, then the use of those phrases would make no sense.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Seems reasonable and you go on a streak for it.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Kratos' Combat Intelligence

One of Kratos' more notable skill feats occurs towards the end of GoW 1, where he is sent to a dimension and forced to fend off numerous copies of himself. The current justification for this is written as follows:

Most of this is okay, save for the "more skilled" part. As explained in the official manual, the clones Kratos fights are explicitly less skilled than him, due to lacking his training and experience. The scan cited in the justification doesn't even say they were more skilled than him, either. So, that needs to be removed.

Moreso, the scans used don't even mention them being more skilled, just young and fresh.

So that's a straight forward removal.

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

Yes, because it's describing the kind of magic each god specializes in. They have different spells with different effects; Refer back to my Hades example, where his champions mostly use soul/life absorbing attacks, but they also have other spells that don't do those things.

Yes, but they all possess absorbing soul/life capabilities.

You can see this with Reckoning of Zeus, where there is clearly a "rank 3" denoting that it has been upgraded. To the right is the list of effects attributed to each rank; Because the spell is rank 3, it gains a silence effect. So, someone who uses the magic at rank 1 would not nullify the target's magic, because it hasn't been upgraded to that level yet.

It just describes increasing the duration or damage of the attack. That's just happens when you upgrade magic attacks in game.

And again, what's the evidence for silencing=power null?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Yes, but they all possess absorbing soul/life capabilities.

No, they don't. One of the spells is literally just tunneling underground. What exactly are they soulhaxing here, the dirt?

It just describes increasing the duration or damage of the attack. That's just happens when you upgrade magic attacks in game.

And again, what's the evidence for silencing=power null?

I really don't know how to explain to you that yes, the magic attacks do gain new properties as you level them up. Sometimes it's just a damage/duration increase. Sometimes it alters the attacks more directly, like adding a shockwave or a power null effect at the end.

"Silence" is an exceptionally common phrase when referring to abilities that nullify powers. One of the scans used to justify Zeus' power null also mentions this silencing effect alongside the power null. What exactly would "silence" refer to if not that?

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Everything looks good, I agree.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump

 

[HammerStrikes219]

No, they don't. One of the spells is literally just tunneling underground. What exactly are they soulhaxing here, the dirt?

I really don't know how to explain to you that yes, the magic attacks do gain new properties as you level them up. Sometimes it's just a damage/duration increase. Sometimes it alters the attacks more directly, like adding a shockwave or a power null effect at the end.

"Silence" is an exceptionally common phrase when referring to abilities that nullify powers. One of the scans used to justify Zeus' power null also mentions this silencing effect alongside the power null. What exactly would "silence" refer to if not that?

Game mechanics guides getting used for clarification definitely support that they don’t even inherently powernull, but isn’t this connected to the multiplayer mode rather than story mode?

Judging by what I see, this definitely seems more of the case of it involving the multiplayer aspect, but that is probably irrelevant in the grand schemes of things.

 

[Deagonx]

What part of this tell us Zeus's nullifying abilities work when only uppgared? The only description we have of his magic is that it innately negates abilities.

This is just a broad description of what his magic specializes in. Not every single lightning spell in the game does that, this is clear from the descriptions of each individual spell.

Magic	Description
Lightning Storm	Summon a powerful bolt of lightning to create an explosion beneath you. Your lightning storm pulls enemies towards the center of the lighting strike before it hits making it more difficult to escape. Greatly increase the size and radius of your lightning. Cost: 100 magic. Uses: 2 (Rank 3).
Reckoning of Zeus	Summon a powerful bolt of electricity that shocks and stuns all enemies. Damages within a large radius. The bolt will explode afterwards causing additional damage. The final explosion now silences anyone whom it hits. Duration: 4 seconds. Cost: 50 magic Uses: 2 (Rank 3).
Olympic Judgment	Project a powerful lightning cone directly in front of you, electrifying and causing massive damage to anyone it hits. A final shockwave will now send enemies flying. Duration: 4 seconds. Cost: 75 magic. Uses: 2 (Rank 3).
Annihilation	Channel bursts of lightning to electrocute enemies. Alternate between L1 and R1 to lengthen attack. Uninterruptable. Cost: 100 magic (Rank 3).

The descriptions you linked read that electric magic "stuns opponents and disables enemy magic" and "stuns opponents or even disables an enemy's magic abilities."

However, not every single lightning ability does those things. The same way not every single Hades Alignment Magic spell drains health.

----------------------------------------

As for the thread itself, straightforward agree for all.

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

This is just a broad description of what his magic specializes in. Not every single lightning spell in the game does that, this is clear from the descriptions of each individual spell.

Magic	Description
Lightning Storm	Summon a powerful bolt of lightning to create an explosion beneath you. Your lightning storm pulls enemies towards the center of the lighting strike before it hits making it more difficult to escape. Greatly increase the size and radius of your lightning. Cost: 100 magic. Uses: 2 (Rank 3).
Reckoning of Zeus	Summon a powerful bolt of electricity that shocks and stuns all enemies. Damages within a large radius. The bolt will explode afterwards causing additional damage. The final explosion now silences anyone whom it hits. Duration: 4 seconds. Cost: 50 magic Uses: 2 (Rank 3).
Olympic Judgment	Project a powerful lightning cone directly in front of you, electrifying and causing massive damage to anyone it hits. A final shockwave will now send enemies flying. Duration: 4 seconds. Cost: 75 magic. Uses: 2 (Rank 3).
Annihilation	Channel bursts of lightning to electrocute enemies. Alternate between L1 and R1 to lengthen attack. Uninterruptable. Cost: 100 magic (Rank 3).

The descriptions you linked read that electric magic "stuns opponents and disables enemy magic" and "stuns opponents or even disables an enemy's magic abilities."

However, not every single lightning ability does those things. The same way not every single Hades Alignment Magic spell drains health.

----------------------------------------

As for the thread itself, straightforward agree for all.

Expect that it does. Let's examine the statement of the item,

"Summon a powerful bolt of electricity that shocks and stuns all enemies. Damages within a large radius. The bolt will explode afterwards causing additional damage. The final explosion now silences anyone whom it hits. Duration: 4 seconds. Cost: 50 magic Uses: 2 (Rank 3)."

According to the game's description, shock and silencing both mean to disable an enemy's magic. As such, we have evidence of the attack's power null working at it's basic level.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Game mechanics guides getting used for clarification definitely support that they don’t even inherently powernull, but isn’t this connected to the multiplayer mode rather than story mode?

Judging by what I see, this definitely seems more of the case of it involving the multiplayer aspect, but that is probably irrelevant in the grand schemes of things.

Expect that it does. Let's examine the statement of the item,

"Summon a powerful bolt of electricity that shocks and stuns all enemies. Damages within a large radius. The bolt will explode afterwards causing additional damage. The final explosion now silences anyone whom it hits. Duration: 4 seconds. Cost: 50 magic Uses: 2 (Rank 3)."

According to the game's description, shock and silencing both mean to disable an enemy magic. As such, we have evidence of the attack's power null working at it's basic level.

Shock will mean the enemy would been stunned to do anything. Also there is the fact Fuji brought this particular scan which is relevant to the multiplayer mode at least. Also the scan you used for visual queues never accounted for the upgrades of said spells so it is kinda pointless in that case

...Yes, because it's describing the kind of magic each god specializes in. They have different spells with different effects; Refer back to my Hades example, where his champions mostly use soul/life absorbing attacks, but they also have other spells that don't do those things.

It's quite literally how the game works, my man. You'll have to excuse the use of a third party guide, since I do not believe the game succinctly explains this anywhere, but you do in fact upgrade your magic to give it new properties.

You can see this with Reckoning of Zeus, where there is clearly a "rank 3" denoting that it has been upgraded. To the right is the list of effects attributed to each rank; Because the spell is rank 3, it gains a silence effect. So, someone who uses the magic at rank 1 would not nullify the target's magic, because it hasn't been upgraded to that level yet.

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

Shock will mean the enemy would been stunned to do anything.

Headcanon. We get a direct description of what it does, any other interpretation is just denying it for the sake of it.

Also there is the fact Fuji brought this particular scan which is relevant to the multiplayer mode at least. Also the scan you used for visual queues never accounted for the upgrades of said spells so it is kinda pointless in that case

The scan comes from a non-canon guide. The scan I used comes from the official digital guide.


Regardless, the literal first sentence of the item is "stuns and shocks" given that we know shocking means powernull, we know that the first level of the attack powernulls an opponent.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Headcanon. We get a direct description of what it does, any other interpretation is just denying it for the sake of it.

??? You can not claim the scan it is from a non canon guide when it clearly involves game mechanics in relation to the multiplayer.

Also headcanon? I definitely don’t trust your words on matter and will disagree for that matter as being disabled can been done by any means so quite frankly I disagree with your own assertions on this particular point

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Expect that it does. Let's examine the statement of the item,

"Summon a powerful bolt of electricity that shocks and stuns all enemies. Damages within a large radius. The bolt will explode afterwards causing additional damage. The final explosion now silences anyone whom it hits. Duration: 4 seconds. Cost: 50 magic Uses: 2 (Rank 3)."

According to the game's description, shock and silencing both mean to disable an enemy's magic. As such, we have evidence of the attack's power null working at it's basic level.

Yes, silencing means power null. That's what I've been trying to tell you. I've also been trying to tell you that not every spell has silencing properties; The Reckoning of Zeus spell only gains such an effect at rank 3, so it is not something innate to the magic's most basic level. It is accessible only to skilled users of it, which the clones of Kratos in GoW 1 are evidently not.

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

??? You can not claim the scan it is from a non canon guide

I can.

when it clearly involves game mechanics in relation to the gameplay mechanics.

And? According to you if ign makes a guide about X game then that's canon because it involves game mechanics.

Also headcanon? I definitely don’t trust your words

That's fine. Trust the official guide.

Yes, silencing means power null.

Yeah. But there was no evidence for it other then speculation on your side. Let's not forget that shocking also means powernull, which goes to my next point,

I've also been trying to tell you that not every spell has silencing properties; The Reckoning of Zeus spell only gains such an effect at rank 3, so it is not something innate to the magic's most basic level. It is accessible only to skilled users of it, which the clones of Kratos in GoW 1 are evidently not.

The Reckoning of Zeus first sentence is "Stuns and shocks all enemies" considering that shocking also means powernull, then the point of the Reckoning of Zeus not having at first is dismissed, since it has it at the first level.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

can.

Based on what grounds? You kinda have that assertion and as such, there is no proof of this other than your own interpretation of the evidence.

As such, I not in the mood for a real back and forth for this topic as this will likely go into circles anyway

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

Based on what grounds? You kinda have that assertion and as such, there is no proof of this other than your own interpretation of the evidence.

As such, I not in the mood for a real back and forth for this topic as this will likely go into circles anyway

Based on it not having any evidence of being canonical? Not having any official involvement with the actual source material? Based on you stating it's canon because it talks about game mechanics? That's your only evidence. It's a guide that talks about game mechanics.

You have not provided any actual evidence for this third party guide to be canon.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

The Reckoning of Zeus first sentence is "Stuns and shocks all enemies" considering that shocking also means powernull, then the point of the Reckoning of Zeus not having at first is dismissed, since it has it at the first level.

This is absurd if you think about it for a few seconds. The spell gains a silence effect - which you admit is the same as the "shock" status - at rank 3. But if what you say is true, then it would've already had this at rank 1. So why would you need to unlock an effect the spell already has? What would the benefit of that be? It seems pretty clear to me that "shocks" isn't referring to the status effect of the same name, but is just referring to the fact it's lightning (and lighting tends to shock people).

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Based on it not having any evidence of being canonical? Not having any official involvement with the actual source material? Based on you stating it's canon because it talks about game mechanics? That's your only evidence. It's a guide that talks about game mechanics.

You have not provided any actual evidence for this third party guide to be canon.

Again, you also don’t have any evidence for it to being non canon at all other than what is being shown and stated here


You are the one making the claim of the guide being “noncanon” in your own words as third party doesn’t instantly make it non canon for that matter.

Edit: Also I should unfollow the thread

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

This is absurd if you think about it for a few seconds. The spell gains a silence effect - which you admit is the same as the "shock" status - at rank 3. But if what you say is true, then it would've already had this at rank 1. So why would you need to unlock an effect the spell already has? What would the benefit of that be? It seems pretty clear to me that "shocks" isn't referring to the status effect of the same name, but is just referring to the fact it's lightning (and lighting tends to shock people).

The Final explosion of the attack is what gains the silencing effect, re-examine the description.

"Summon a powerful bolt of electricity that shocks and stuns all enemies. Damages within a large radius. The bolt will explode afterwards causing additional damage. The final explosion now silences anyone whom it hits. Duration: 4 seconds. Cost: 50 magic Uses: 2 (Rank 3)."

The attack is a lightning bolt which powernulls, but when uppgarded to level 2 it gains an explosion attack, but when further uppgarded the explosion becomes capable of power null by its own.

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

Again, you also don’t have any evidence for it to being non canon at all other than what is being shown and stated here


You are the one making the claim of the guide being “noncanon” in your own words as third party doesn’t instantly make it non canon for that matter.

Edit: Also I should unfollow the thread

No the burden of proof is on you! What evidence do you have for this being canon? If any at all?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Actually, I don't even know why we're discussing this one fucking spell when you can see in gameplay that a lot of Zeus' magic doesn't power null by default (the "silence" icon above a player's head you normally see when the power null takes effect is conspicuously absent even when getting repeatedly zapped). We'd have to assume that Kratos clones in GoW 1 have access to the specific kind of magic used to nullify powers, and are not just using a regular lightning bolt, of which there is no evidence.

also stop bitching about the guide please, i just used it to explain Ascension's magic rank system

 

[HammerStrikes219]

No the burden of proof is on you! What evidence do you have for this being canon? If any at all?

What? You do realize this works both ways outside of the fact the guide was made to provide gameplay info to the viewers for the game in question especially it seems to being related to the multiplayer aspect.

I don’t see your claims to being actually solid to begin with anyway.

Let’s just disagree on that matter anyway

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

Actually, I don't even know why we're discussing this one fucking spell when you can see in gameplay that a lot of Zeus' magic doesn't power null by default (the "silence" icon above a player's head you normally see when the power null takes effect is conspicuously absent even when getting repeatedly zapped). We'd have to assume that Kratos clones in GoW 1 have access to the specific kind of magic used to nullify powers, and are not just using a regular lightning bolt, of which there is no evidence.

also stop bitching about the guide please, i just used it to explain Ascension's magic rank system

We consider Kratos to possess the same thunderbolt as Zeus due to the novel and GOW2 showcasing him using said thunderbolts.

Which upscales from Zeus's warriors.

Edit:This is enough vsbw for me. I'll be unfollowing.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

yeah (to the OP)

nothing yet constitutes a problem but do play nice, for my sake

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

We consider Kratos to possess the same thunderbolt as Zeus due to the novel and GOW2 showcasing him using said thunderbolts.

Which upscales from Zeus's warriors.

I never said Kratos didn't have the lightning of Zeus. Just that his clones can only use it on a basic level, and don't have it to the same extent that the real Kratos does. It's explicitly confirmed that they're not on the level of the original, so trying to debunk my points by showing what the real Kratos can do isn't going to work. You would have to show that his clones can use Zeus' lightning to that extent, which will be pretty difficult considering the guidebook explicitly says that they cannot.

 

[Deagonx]

According to the game's description, shock and silencing both mean to disable an enemy's magic. As such, we have evidence of the attack's power null working at it's basic level.

That's just for Reckoning of Zeus. The other three lightning attacks don't cause that debuff, so there's no reason to assume that Kratos' clones are using it (because they clearly aren't specifically using Reckoning of Zeus) or that Kratos, therefore, must be resisting it.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

One last bump before I am executed by firing squad.
(If I am unable to apply this thread tomorrow, feel free to do so on my behalf)

 

[HammerStrikes219]

One last bump before I am executed by firing squad.
(If I am unable to apply this thread tomorrow, feel free to do so on my behalf)

Rip. It is understandable to get frustrated as well.


Also It is kinda understandable where the mods are coming from, but at least this is temporary ban (Could been much worse than that given the She Who shall not been named situation where my role was me getting permanent banned for years and stuff due to a former staff member)