The Great Odyssean Quest to Downgrade God of War ⌈Part 1/God Only Knows How Long This Will Take⌋

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Agree with power absorption like in the previous thread.

Disagree on poison/acid manip, he’d still have to resist the poisons effects on him even if he does “shake it off”. Leaving the area also wouldn’t really help if he’s directly splashed by it.

Agree with causality manip

Do you at least agree with removing resistance to acid, seeing as there's no indication the poison is acidic in nature?

 

[Everything12]

Op makes sense.

 

[Deagonx]

Disagree on poison/acid manip, he’d still have to resist the poisons effects on him even if he does “shake it off”. Leaving the area also wouldn’t really help if he’s directly splashed by it.

I'd like to explore this a bit more. Given the common tone of these threads I want to say ahead of time that I don't mean anything negative by the questions/arguments. I respect that you have a different view on it.

My hang up is essentially: If we're to think of Kratos as having a resistance to this pool of poison/acid, 1) Why is he taking damage, and 2) Why is he stunlocked and needs to do a QTE to break out of it?

To me, this is kind of like the inverse of using game mechanics for anti-feats, where we're actually using game mechanics for feats. The premise of this is like, the boss can spit pools of poison onto the ground and you get hurt and stunned if you step in them. I understand that in real life leaving the area wouldn't help, but a lot of video games have these sorts of things where the poison just "wears off" after a period of time. Like in Skyrim/Fallout where poison just kinda goes away after you wait long enough. It still feels like we're meant to interpret this as the Main Character being vulnerable to poison.

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

Causality Manipulation [Kratos]

The Amulet of Uroborus can rewind and stop time. That’s it. It manipulates time. It does not directly influence past events, it just rewinds time.

I should note that reasoning behind it if I remember correctly, was the amulet’s ability to make objects go back to past or future states and able to force them in that state, using it to return structures as if nothing happened or as if something happened.

 

[Deagonx]

was the amulet’s ability to make objects go back to past or future states and able to force them in that state, using it to return structures as if nothing happened or as if something happened.

Yeah that's just time manip. This specific use-case can be achieved with causality manip, but through a different mechanism. For Causality Manip we would expect some indication that the reason this is happening is because the character is directly influencing the laws of cause/effect, not just rewinding time in a localized area:

The user can redirect any cause to any effect, undo anything by inverting the relation cause/effect, or even separate them entirely, making a specific effect impossible to be caused or a specific cause not producing any effect.

This allows one to achieve virtually anything by redirecting the selected cause to the desired effect. A finger snap that normally causes sound and kinetic force could instead cause a sun explosion or a massive resurrection. The user could also instantly erase anything from existence, by making its existence the cause of its own nonexistence. Another possibility is the instant rewriting of a whole reality, by making Reality X (the current reality) the cause of Reality Y (a tailor-made one).

 

[Phoenks]

Disagree on poison/acid manip, he’d still have to resist the poisons effects on him even if he does “shake it off”. Leaving the area also wouldn’t really help if he’s directly splashed by it.

At best this would be limited.

 

[AbaddonTheDisappointment]

Do you at least agree with removing resistance to acid, seeing as there's no indication the poison is acidic in nature?

Yeah that’s fine imo probably shoulda specified that in my post my b.

I'd like to explore this a bit more. Given the common tone of these threads I want to say ahead of time that I don't mean anything negative by the questions/arguments. I respect that you have a different view on it.

My hang up is essentially: If we're to think of Kratos as having a resistance to this pool of poison/acid, 1) Why is he taking damage, and 2) Why is he stunlocked and needs to do a QTE to break out of it?

To me, this is kind of like the inverse of using game mechanics for anti-feats, where we're actually using game mechanics for feats. The premise of this is like, the boss can spit pools of poison onto the ground and you get hurt and stunned if you step in them. I understand that in real life leaving the area wouldn't help, but a lot of video games have these sorts of things where the poison just "wears off" after a period of time. Like in Skyrim/Fallout where poison just kinda goes away after you wait long enough. It still feels like we're meant to interpret this as the Main Character being vulnerable to poison.

Because having him entirely unharmed by the attack doesn’t make for good gameplay. The QTE is just for a way for it to add to gameplay while also showing him resisting said attack.

Also, someone can have resistance and still be affected by something, they can just be affected to a lesser degree or recover faster than normal.

 

[AbaddonTheDisappointment]

At best this would be limited.

I’d be fine with this

 

[Deagonx]

Because having him entirely unharmed by the attack doesn’t make for good gameplay. The QTE is just for a way for it to add to gameplay while also showing him resisting said attack.

Also, someone can have resistance and still be affected by something, they can just be affected to a lesser degree or recover faster than normal.

So if I understand correctly, we're sort of cognizing this as like an activated resistance? He is affected by it (takes damage/stunned) but he can sort of react to it and after a few seconds shake off the effects?

I can sort of see that as being a form of Limited Resistance to Poison Manipulation but at least personally I am more inclined to think of it as just game mechanics, like how characters can walk into a poison gas cloud and you'll hear them cough and take damage, and then they leave the gas cloud and they're like... instantly fine, instead of having long term lung damage and possibly a fatal case of COPD or something.

In any case, thanks for discussing it further. I appreciate it.

 

[AbaddonTheDisappointment]

So if I understand correctly, we're sort of cognizing this as like an activated resistance? He is affected by it (takes damage/stunned) but he can sort of react to it and after a few seconds shake off the effects?

I can sort of see that as being a form of Limited Poison Manipulation but at least personally I am more inclined to think of it as just game mechanics, like how characters can walk into a poison gas cloud and you'll hear them cough and take damage, and then they leave the gas cloud and they're like... instantly fine, instead of having long term lung damage and possibly a fatal case of COPD or something.

In any case, thanks for discussing it further. I appreciate it.

If anything, like Phoenks said, we could have it as limited and specify he has to actively fight off the poison or something akin to that in the justification.

Also gonna clarify, the resistance to power absorption is only removing the priest stuff right cause I only read that stuff?

 

[Catzlaflame]

What I read:
1. The OP
2. This reply by Planck
3. The debate between KLOL and Fuji directly after to the OP

I agree with the op in its entirety.

There was some mention about QTE’s and cannon stuff. I am not familiar with the series enough to evaluate this though, so if that ends up being an issue I will change my stance.

On the point about the poison manip, for it to be a limited resistance on the premise of him being “affected to a lesser degree” I would, personally, want a frame of reference. Lesser degree in comparison to what? How would it affect someone else who would not have the same resistance?

Like is there a scan for KLOL’s comment here:

would've had his face melted off by the poison

 

[Deagonx]

Also gonna clarify, the resistance to power absorption is only removing the priest stuff right cause I only read that stuff?

The original thread included the other justifications and arguments against them as well. KLOL brought up the other justifications here and Fuji argued against them on the first page. However, IMO the Priest being able to absorb his power is a pretty overt anti-feat which means he does not have that resistance (lest we cook up some kind of resistance negation for the Priest to explain it).

On the point about the poison manip, for it to be a limited resistance on the premise of him being “affected to a lesser degree” I would, personally, want a frame of reference. Lesser degree in comparison to what? How would it affect someone else who would not have the same resistance?

Like is there a scan for KLOL’s comment here:

This is a good point. It's also possible that the lack of "face melting" could be a matter of durability rather than specific resistance to poison. His Demigod key is "Multi Solar-System Level" and this poison/alleged acid doesn't even melt through, like, the ground. It's kind of a wonder at all that Kratos is damaged by it or stunned by it.

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

The original thread included the other justifications and arguments against them as well. KLOL brought up the other justifications here and Fuji argued against them on the first page. However, IMO the Priest being able to absorb his power is a pretty overt anti-feat which means he does not have that resistance (lest we cook up some kind of resistance negation for the Priest to explain it).

Could be just higher layers bs.

 

[AbaddonTheDisappointment]

The original thread included the other justifications and arguments against them as well. KLOL brought up the other justifications here and Fuji argued against them on the first page. However, IMO the Priest being able to absorb his power is a pretty overt anti-feat which means he does not have that resistance (lest we cook up some kind of resistance negation for the Priest to explain it)

Hmm, I’ll read through those later since I thought it was just removing the priest justification. Could, like Pepsiman said, also be some higher potency or layer thing but that’ll depend on context and the other feats so I’ll check them out when I got time.

 

[chosen]

IMO the Priest being able to absorb his power is a pretty overt anti-feat which means he does not have that resistance (lest we cook up some kind of resistance negation for the Priest to explain it).

His power absorbtion potency can just be above baseline without needing for it to be resistance neg, If other justificatuons stays that is which isn't up for me to decide. Same way with many haxes. Just came to point this one out

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Did I underestimate my yapping, or overestimate the evaluation abilities on staff? Both? Probably both.

By the way, just a reminder that the alternative to me doing 50 threads in a row is me posting another 9000 word wall of text. This is the lesser of two evils.

Resistance to Power Absorption [Kratos]

As shown here, Kratos is able to push away an enemy before they can absorb his magic. However, if he does not push them away in time, his magic gets absorbed (you can also see this in the gif Deagonx provided below). This is explicitly not a resistance. He is clearly getting his powers absorbed. The only "resistance" is from Kratos just stopping someone from using their power against him at all, which is not how resistances work on this wiki. If it's really necessary, you can specify on Kratos' page that techniques requiring sustained contact are dangerous to use against Kratos because he can beat people up at close range.

Resistance to Poison & Acid [Kratos]

The supposed feat is of Kratos breaking free from the chimera’s acidic poison, but we can see that this isn’t the case. He is left dazed and damaged, and is only “freed” by the chimera’s snake head tossing him around like a ragdoll. Also, “breaking free” from poison isn’t a resistance. He is merely leaving an area suffused with poison, while he takes damage while in that area of effect. I don’t “resist fire manipulation” for walking out of a burning building.

Causality Manipulation [Kratos]

The Amulet of Uroborus can rewind and stop time. That’s it. It manipulates time. It does not directly influence past events, it just rewinds time.

Now this... this is something bite-sized I can tackle in just a few minutes. My psyche appreciates it.

I agree with the removal of Power Absorption, no real contention there he just straight up doesn't resist it.

Similarly agree with Poison and Acid- although if the poison is meant to be lethal, I think a limited resistance may still apply. He's affected by it, but not as much as he could be.

No contention to Causality Manipulation, kill it.

 

[Deagonx]

Hmm, I’ll read through those later since I thought it was just removing the priest justification. Could, like Pepsiman said, also be some higher potency or layer thing but that’ll depend on context and the other feats so I’ll check them out when I got time.

Sure. This is the full justification:

• Death Manipulation and Power Absorption (Survived having sex with Aphrodite's twin daughters Zora and Lora, whereas everyone else died doing the deed, with Kratos being completely unaware of the situation until after he had done the deed and they had told him of what happened to the other previous attemptees.[54] Resisted the effects of the River Styx,[15] which can kill any being who drinks from it.[55] Also survived shrieks from Sirens, which can instantly kill people by causing their heads to explode.[56] Is also able to resist the Priests of the Fates trying to absorb his magic[7])

To be honest, the first three feats mentioned (Zora/Lora, River Styx, Siren Shrieks) just seem like they pertain to Death Manip and I'm not sure why these two justifications were combined. The only part of this that clearly refers to power absorption is the Priests.

Also I don't understand why Sirens shrieking making people's heads explode would be characterized as "Death Manipulation" but I guess that's for the next thread.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

So if I understand correctly, we're sort of cognizing this as like an activated resistance? He is affected by it (takes damage/stunned) but he can sort of react to it and after a few seconds shake off the effects?

Resistance is not immunity.

Resistance is the power to withstand the effects of certain abilities through varying means. The highest degree of resistance is outright Immunity, supposedly making the user in question completely unaffected by such abilities.

The page itself differentiates this.

Furthermore, the page itself explains that resistance is not always active.

With some characters, resistances and immunities may need to be activated, rather than something that is constantly up and useful. In these cases, it should be mentioned - the same goes if the resistance only applies to certain parts of the user's body.

So being affected by the ability and somehow getting rid of it afterwards, like Kratos does with poison or like countless characters do with petrification (being affected and petrified and then breaking free with some action), would still count as resistance although some don't think that is passive.

Limited Resistance to Poison Manipulation

As far as I know, there is no such thing as "limited resistance", all resistance is limited in some sense. Unlimited resistance would be immunity.

 

[Deagonx]

Resistance is not immunity.

The page itself differentiates this.

Furthermore, the page itself explains that resistance is not always active.

So being affected by the ability and somehow getting rid of it afterwards, like Kratos does with poison or like countless characters do with petrification (being affected and petrified and then breaking free with some action), would still count as resistance although some don't think that is passive.

As Catzlaflame pointed out, in order for us to conclude that he resisted it in some way, we should have some kind of baseline of what we would expect to happen to someone who cannot resist it. Without that information all we actually know is that this poison damages and stuns Kratos. What if it's just poison that damages and stuns?

 

[chosen]

The tail it's a cobra so maybe the cobra poison vs humans stuff might help With This conclusion.

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

As Catzlaflame pointed out, in order for us to conclude that he resisted it in some way, we should have some kind of baseline of what we would expect to happen to someone who cannot resist it. Without that information all we actually know is that this poison damages and stuns Kratos. What if it's just poison that damages and stuns?

Isn't the fact that the entire QTE is about fighting it off enough evidence? I mean, sure, it's a resistance where Kratos has to actively fight it off, but it does show us that if he doesn't fight it, he gets way more negatively affected.

 

[Deagonx]

I mean, sure, it's a resistance where Kratos has to actively fight it off, but it does show us that if he doesn't fight it, he gets way more negatively affected.

I guess my question is, what precisely do we think Kratos is doing here?



Like, is he just mustering some internal form of resistance to overcome the effect?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

If it's mostly just a daze effect, I think coming to his senses would track outside of a resistance.

 

[Deagonx]

If it's mostly just a daze effect, I think coming to his senses would track outside of a resistance.

You also take some damage every few seconds that you fail to break out of the daze.

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

I guess my question is, what precisely do we think Kratos is doing here?



Like, is he just mustering some internal form of resistance to overcome the effect?

Probably, a lot of Kratos's resistances are just him fighting off the hax itself, we see how he's affected when he doesn't fight it.

 

[chosen]

The tail it's a cobra so maybe the cobra poison vs humans stuff might help With This conclusion.

0:28 unsure id this was brought up but kratos also geta bited by the cobra wjo are infamous for having venemous bite. Is this good enough? He doesn't seem that affected

 

[Deagonx]

Probably, a lot of Kratos's resistances are just him fighting off the hax itself, we see how he's affected when he doesn't fight it.

Poison and ripping someone's soul from their body are mechanically very different. In any case, I decided to go through the novels and look for how poison is treated to see if Kratos has any kind of resistance to speak of.

Against a scorpion:

A droplet of poison that had beaded on the tip of the stinger splashed [Kratos'] forehead and burned like fire. His grip on the creature weakened as the poison trickled down into his eyebrow, searing the hair and threatening to run into his eye. Kratos swiped his arm against the poison drop to prevent it from blinding him—but his arm was coated with gore. Blood got into his eye and turned him blind. As he had experienced in battle, the blood dropped a Stygiandark veil across his vision. He blinked furiously to clear it. Blood in his eye was better than permanently blinding poison—but the distinction quickly vanished when he heard talons scraping on rock below him.

Against a Naiad:

Kratos started to stab out with the trident but held back, not sure what the naiad’s threat might be, since it didnot seem to be armed. Still, like a jellyfish, it might have stingers that delivered painful, if not instantly fatal, poison.

I don't think we're meant to have the impression that Kratos has any special abilities against poison. As Bambu points out, it's primarily a dazing effect and him getting out of it would be normal.

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

Poison and ripping someone's soul from their body are mechanically very different. In any case, I decided to go through the novels and look for how poison is treated to see if Kratos has any kind of resistance to speak of.

Sure, how the hax work are different, but how Kratos resists stuff is the same.

I don't think we're meant to have the impression that Kratos has any special abilities against poison. As Bambu points out, it's primarily a dazing effect and him getting out of it would be normal.

Deagnox, the novels are secondary canon for a reason. These instances are contradicted by the game, as such, unusable.

Seriously man, you gotta stop mixing it up.

As for it being only a dazing effect, well, it can't be that, dazed people don't take damage from dazing.

You also take some damage every few seconds that you fail to break out of the daze.

 

[Deagonx]

Deagnox, the novels are secondary canon for a reason. These instances are contradicted by the game, as such, unusable.

I'm aware, I'm saying they're not contradicted by the game. The game is ambiguous, and the ambiguity here is cleared up by the secondary canon.

As for it being only a dazing effect, well, it can't be that, dazed people don't take damage from dazing.

"Primarily" and "only" are different here. In any case, my view on the matter is clear. I don't think this is sufficient evidence for Poison Resistance.

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

I'm aware, I'm saying they're not contradicted by the game. The game is ambiguous, and the ambiguity here is cleared up by the secondary canon.

I don't see how they're ambiguous, you fail the QTE, you take damage from the poison, you do it successfully, Kratos shakes it off with no damage taken. Thus, the novels are contradicted.

"Primarily" and "only" are different here. In any case, my view on the matter is clear. I don't think this is sufficient evidence for Poison Resistance.

Sure, you can have that view.

 

[FuriousFieryFist]

Sure. This is the full justification:

• Death Manipulation and Power Absorption (Survived having sex with Aphrodite's twin daughters Zora and Lora, whereas everyone else died doing the deed, with Kratos being completely unaware of the situation until after he had done the deed and they had told him of what happened to the other previous attemptees.[54] Resisted the effects of the River Styx,[15] which can kill any being who drinks from it.[55] Also survived shrieks from Sirens, which can instantly kill people by causing their heads to explode.[56] Is also able to resist the Priests of the Fates trying to absorb his magic[7])

To be honest, the first three feats mentioned (Zora/Lora, River Styx, Siren Shrieks) just seem like they pertain to Death Manip and I'm not sure why these two justifications were combined. The only part of this that clearly refers to power absorption is the Priests.

Also I don't understand why Sirens shrieking making people's heads explode would be characterized as "Death Manipulation" but I guess that's for the next thread.

None of the picture links work for this so apologize if don't have full context however I don't think the Sirens should be counted as Death Manipulation. From the wording it seems more likely that this was a form of concentrated sound manipulation, similar to shattering glass with your voice but with heads, as opposed to actual supernatural means of killing people.

 

[Deagonx]

None of the picture links work for this so apologize if don't have full context however I don't think the Sirens should be counted as Death Manipulation. From the wording it seems more likely that this was a form of concentrated sound manipulation, similar to shattering glass with your voice but with heads, as opposed to actual supernatural means of killing people.

You're quite likely right, but that's outside the scope of this revision. It'll be handled in a later revision.

 

[FuriousFieryFist]

You're quite likely right, but that's outside the scope of this revision. It'll be handled in a later revision.

Alright then, I'll drop it for now. If possible Mad_Dog would you consider making this change part of your next batch of revisions?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Alright then, I'll drop it for now. If possible Mad_Dog would you consider making this change part of your next batch of revisions?

There's a lot that needs addressing, and I don't have a set order in mind when it comes to what I plan on revising. I will, however, look into the sirens' death hax when I get the opportunity.

Poison and ripping someone's soul from their body are mechanically very different. In any case, I decided to go through the novels and look for how poison is treated to see if Kratos has any kind of resistance to speak of.

Against a scorpion:

Against a Naiad:

I don't think we're meant to have the impression that Kratos has any special abilities against poison. As Bambu points out, it's primarily a dazing effect and him getting out of it would be normal.

Okay well now I really don't think Kratos should have poison resistance. I know the novels are secondary canon, but Kratos only has one arguable poison resistance feat in the main games (and as of now, it's quite contentious), while the novels are far more clear cut in this regard.

Anyways, apologies for the delay on my end. I've been rather busy with work, though I'm glad to see that the thread has been moved to content revision and a vote tally has been added. Is there anything I missed that needs addressing at this time?

 

[Deagonx]

Is there anything I missed that needs addressing at this time?

I don't believe so. It's possible others will have counterarguments they'd like to make, but much of this is exceedingly straightforward. The Causality Manip especially.

 

[Omnificence]

Did I underestimate my yapping, or overestimate the evaluation abilities on staff? Both? Probably both.

By the way, just a reminder that the alternative to me doing 50 threads in a row is me posting another 9000 word wall of text. This is the lesser of two evils.

Resistance to Power Absorption [Kratos]

As shown here, Kratos is able to push away an enemy before they can absorb his magic. However, if he does not push them away in time, his magic gets absorbed (you can also see this in the gif Deagonx provided below). This is explicitly not a resistance. He is clearly getting his powers absorbed. The only "resistance" is from Kratos just stopping someone from using their power against him at all, which is not how resistances work on this wiki. If it's really necessary, you can specify on Kratos' page that techniques requiring sustained contact are dangerous to use against Kratos because he can beat people up at close range.

Resistance to Poison & Acid [Kratos]

The supposed feat is of Kratos breaking free from the chimera’s acidic poison, but we can see that this isn’t the case. He is left dazed and damaged, and is only “freed” by the chimera’s snake head tossing him around like a ragdoll. Also, “breaking free” from poison isn’t a resistance. He is merely leaving an area suffused with poison, while he takes damage while in that area of effect. I don’t “resist fire manipulation” for walking out of a burning building.

Causality Manipulation [Kratos]

The Amulet of Uroborus can rewind and stop time. That’s it. It manipulates time. It does not directly influence past events, it just rewinds time.

Tally:

Agree: Deagonx, Mr. Bambu, Everything12, Maverick_Zero_X, AbaddonTheDisappointment (except Poison)
Disagree: AbaddonTheDisappointment (Poison)
Neutral: DarkDragonMedeus

Damn! You're not letting up on these GoW downgrades, are you now? Jk...

Anyways, everything looks fine except for the Poison bit. Might I suggest it be "limited Resistance to Poison"?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I don't believe so. It's possible others will have counterarguments they'd like to make, but much of this is exceedingly straightforward. The Causality Manip especially.

You love to see it.

Damn! You're not letting up on these GoW downgrades, are you now? Jk...

Anyways, everything looks fine except for the Poison bit. Might I suggest it be "limited Resistance to Poison"?

I would prefer not to do that, due to the anti-feats present in the novels and the fact that we don't exactly know how the poison works. If it's some kind of instant-death poison that Kratos is merely damaged by, then sure, a resistance would be appropriate. But we don't know that for sure, which is why I'll wait for GoW supporters to hopefully provide more context.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

No, the poison doesn't have any effect of the like. Albeit, the video used in the op is a bit misleading, as we do see Kratos being able to remove the poison's effect off.

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

Wait a min, wrong link.

Edit: Fixed it.

Anyway, while he's still damaged by it, can he have a limted resistance for being able to remove it?