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The Great Odyssean Quest to Downgrade God of War ⌈Part 5⌋ [Reactive Evolution Edition!]

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Okay. I guess I'm not seeing what is supposed to be a visual indicator of absorption. It mostly looks like they're just hitting the enemies around Kratos and killing them with physical damage.
...I was gonna point out that the enemies drop red orbs, which Kratos gathers, but upon double checking, I realized that his health bar doesn't increase (and red orbs in GoW don't heal Kratos, anyways). You're right that the scan provided showcases no absorption of any kind. So uh, where exactly is life/magic absorption coming from?? Is it just the one scene from GoW 3?
 
Just asking, no stance btw (havent read tbh). Is it ok if i ask how many parts are left? (No real opinion on the GOW verse here) Ty in advanced.
 
Just asking, no stance btw (havent read tbh). Is it ok if i ask how many parts are left? (No real opinion on the GOW verse here) Ty in advanced.
I'm unsure - I thought I had a good idea of how long it'd be as of last thread, but since then I've stumbled across even more things in need of downgrading, so I'm not really sure how many more threads I'll need to tackle that. It never ceases to baffle me just how bad things have gotten.
 
actually **** it, before I sleep.

Zeus' Resistance Negation/Reactive Evolution, + Kratos' Resistance to Soul Manipulation via the Arms of Hades

Zeus has reactive evolution and resistance negation for supposedly negating Kratos' resistance to the waters of the river Styx. The context is here; Kratos is struck by a bolt of lightning, falls into the Styx, and the souls within drain his health, magic, and experience. The basis for this is that Kratos resisted these effects prior to God of War 3 (to clarify, this means the resistance to the river's effects granted via the Soul of Hades are not relevant to this discussion), and his inability to do so after Zeus blasts him is attributable to some sort of innate ability to remove resistances. What's more, the fact that his lightning bolts failed to do this in previous games

The resistance negation half is easy to disprove. For starters, if this is indeed the case, Kratos wouldn't just have his powers absorbed - He'd die outright, which clearly does not happen. The Styx kills whatever enters its waters, which Kratos can resist, so if Zeus negated that resistance... well, you can probably imagine what would happen.

So, what about the souls of Hades? Well, the problem is written into the name. The souls of Hades and the Styx are not one and the same; The souls live there, and can pose a threat to those immersed in its waters, but they are not always a threat. We see this to some extent in GoW3, where Kratos can traverse small sections of the Styx without getting his powers absorbed. While it's implied he endured the Styx in Chains of Olympus, we don't actually see this event occur, and thus cannot determine if he was attacked by these wayward souls, let alone resisted their absorption. There's no other scene which we can use to safely claim that so much as dipping your toes in the water drains your power; It is something only attributable to an entity living in the river, and much like a shark in an ocean, they're not always going to hunt down and kill any unfortunate swimmers.

Kratos has dealt with similar effects before, but he also fails to demonstrate any sort of resistance there, either. The justification for Kratos resisting this sort of absorption also cites this comic panel, where Kratos fights off the arms of Hades, but you can probably notice a major issue - The arms aren't actually grabbing Kratos (the trigger for their absorption), but are being torn apart by him. Much like the Priest of Fate "feat", Kratos is not resisting any sort of hax here, but merely keeping a dangerous enemy at bay. The arms' effects also take time to activate, giving Kratos ample time to fight back. When Kratos is grappled by the arms, he needs to be brought back to life by Gaia, is shown breaking free of their grip, and then straight up leaving; Again, not really a resistance in any sense of the word (especially since half of this feat is accomplished via outside help). The arms take time to trigger their effects, further supporting the idea that he just breaks their grip before they can do lasting harm.

In conclusion, Zeus wouldn't need to negate Kratos' resistance to absorption, because it wasn't a resistance he ever had in the first place. Naturally, Kratos' resistances from battling the arms of Hades would need to be removed as well.

So what about reactive evolution? That is founded solely on the basis that Zeus gained resistance negation on a whim, which... I mean, the last few paragraphs were dedicated to explaining why he didn't actually do that, so the foundation of reactive evolution being bunk means reactive evo has to go.

So, to recap:

  • Kratos has never been shown to resist the effects of the souls of Hades or the arms of Hades, meaning Zeus would not require any sort of resistance negation. This would also remove resistance to soul manipulation from Kratos' demigod key, as that is based on him resisting the souls/arms of Hades.
  • If Kratos truly had his resistance negated, the waters of the Styx would have killed him.
  • Because Zeus' resistance negation is bunk, his reactive evolution also ought to be removed.
Is Kratos usually immune to the effects of the Styx, or just not as affected? If the lightning did render him no longer immune, then I think it's fine to count it as Resistance Negation on a very limited basis. Evidence doesn't make this 100% clear so I'll wait to hear back on that point.

I'm fine with removing Kratos' resistance to the Soul's abilities, I don't have much to say on that front.

Wait, What About the Furies?

If I'm seriously proposing that demigod Kratos lose his resistance to soul manipulation (which I am), then I also need to tackle the other half of that justification. The first issue is that, as discussed previously, Kratos is affected by the Furies. They drive him to the brink of insanity, which indicates that he really did not handle their torture very well. That aside, let's look at how he supposedly resists their torture; Megaera slaps Kratos, he dodges her attacks, and then breaks his chains and tackles her. She doesn't even get to torture him! Much like the Priest of Fate (again), Kratos is merely preventing something from affecting him in the first place, which is not a resistance. And when he is exposed to the Furies' torture, the manual outright clarifies that he was affected by their hax. Finally, it's worth noting that breaking someone in "body, mind, and soul" is a common turn of phrase that doesn't really indicate literally affecting the soul.
Yeah, no notes.

This stems from Kratos adapting to and resisting Heimdall’s attempts to read his mind. This is, devoid of context, fine. The problem is that in this fight, Kratos wields the Draupnir spear, a weapon forged specifically to counter Heimdall's abilities by overloading his senses. Obviously, trying to read someone's mind whilst you're experiencing information overload is nigh-impossible, which is what gives Kratos the opportunity to bypass Heimdall's foresight and pummel him. This also leads into a secondary problem of how, if Kratos can just resist/adapt Heimdall's hax by himself, then him needing the Draupnir spear at all makes 0 sense. Given that part of Kratos' resistance to telepathy is contingent on this feat, that would also need to be removed.
There's not shitloads of context here. I don't gather the "overwhelming Heimdall's senses" bit from this alone. But, the latter half of your argument rings true enough: if Kratos needed a weapon specifically designed to counter specifically Heimdall, then it wouldn't make sense for him to be immune to that on his own. I'm leaning neutral here but I'll agree for now.

Reactive Evolution & Power Nullification [Demigod Kratos]

Time to cover Castor and Pollux again (everybody's favorite!). The basis here is quite simple: The duo have a magic amulet that can mess with time in a variety of ways. Throughout the fight, Kratos is shown overpowering their attempts to use the amulet's power against them. It is concluded, then, that Kratos was gradually developing a resistance over the course of the battle, as he was stated to be affected by it at the very start (but could later overpower it without issue). He is also assumed to be able to nullify its powers for more or less the same reason, as Castor and Pollux very briefly lose control of the amulet when Kratos beats them up.

Starting simply, these abilities contradict each other. If Kratos nullified the amulet's power, then he doesn't need to resist anything (because anything he'd need to "resist" has already been nullified). If Kratos adapted to the amulet's hax, then he both didn't nullify it (as the amulet can obviously still use its hax against him, even if he resists it) and wouldn't need to. If one of these abilities is valid, then the other isn't. You can't have your reactive evolution and power nullification it too, as the saying goes.

Of course, the individual abilities themselves are also bad. For power nullification, the extent to which we see Kratos "nullify" their powers is that the green glow surrounding their weapons dissipates for a quarter of a second after every hit. It's important to note that Castor and Pollux do require some degree of skill and focus to use the amulet; According to WoG, the amulet is something you can get better and better at using, and the twins have limits on their usage of it. That is to say, being slapped around by the world's angriest man would be one hell of a distraction, and naturally make it difficult to maintain the focus necessary to use the amulet. Its effects aren't passive, and it's just like any other activated item in that its use can be prevented if you interrupt the user; That isn't power null at all.

Reactive evolution is also predicated on this scene, in which Castor and Pollux move in for the kill and Kratos parries them. This would be fine, if Kratos was frozen in time and then spontaneously broke out. But you can literally see him tracking their movements in first person, even swaying back and forth in doing so. He is explicitly capable of movement, so him moving isn't really indicative of any sudden explosive growth that negs time stop or whatever. Him "overpowering" the amulet is also bad; He is, yet again, simply pushing them away before they can use the full extent of the amulet's power against him. They never use it to its fullest extent against him, because he doesn't let them; If Kratos fails to push them away, he outright dies.
getting a lot of mileage out of that word, "Predicated", eh?

This one's fine. Running theme of God of War pages having nullification/resistance based on Kratos just beating up the source doing the thing to him, mildly interesting, moderately concerning, majorly telling.

So, I agree with all, although the Heimdall spear thing I'm not totally convinced of.
 
I can give a bit more context to that and the Zeus thing after work, but thanks for taking a look.

also i just like using the word predicated, okay? im the kind of weirdo that has a list of favorite words and that just so happens to be one of them
 
actually **** it, before I sleep.


Is Kratos usually immune to the effects of the Styx, or just not as affected? If the lightning did render him no longer immune, then I think it's fine to count it as Resistance Negation on a very limited basis. Evidence doesn't make this 100% clear so I'll wait to hear back on that point.
Kratos is currently accepted as resisting the effects of the Styx, based on this scene where Charon tosses him off a cliff, there's a cut to Kratos chained to a wall, and then another cut to Kratos back on the boat with Charon. That aside, there's the logical issue of how, if Kratos did legitimately have his resistance to the Styx negated, he would die the moment he fell into it, because the river kills whatever is in it.

For the record, I'm excluding his resistance from GoW 3, since that only happens after he acquires the Soul of Hades, which happens well after Zeus blasts his ass down to the Underworld.
There's not shitloads of context here. I don't gather the "overwhelming Heimdall's senses" bit from this alone. But, the latter half of your argument rings true enough: if Kratos needed a weapon specifically designed to counter specifically Heimdall, then it wouldn't make sense for him to be immune to that on his own. I'm leaning neutral here but I'll agree for now.
From this video, I think the context seems somewhat clear:
  • Sindri: "Oh. Wow. Okay. Heimdall. Let's see... never loses... sees everything coming... unpopular at parties... this won't be easy!"
  • Kratos: "Whatever his advantages, I will overwhelm him with my own."
  • Brok: "That's the idea! You gotta overpopulate his senses, see? And I got just the thing in mind to help you do it. Sindri - go get Draupnir!"
In essence, because Heimdall sees everything coming, causing him to intake too much information at once would muddy the waters, so to speak, making it impossible to make heads or tails of anything. Draupnir is the weapon of choice for causing this sensory overload. It'd be like listening to ten people talking at once, and trying to make out the words of a single person; It's almost impossible because there's just too much information for your brain to process all at once.

In gameplay, this is represented by a red "stun meter" beneath Heimdall's health bar. Kratos, by repeatedly throwing and detonating the spear next to Heimdall, builds up that meter, and once it's full, he can finally land a few hits on him. Prior to that, Heimdall just aimdodges everything Kratos throws at him.

Does this clear things up?
 
Is 3-2 a solid enough consensus, or should we wait for further input?
not solid but will work in a pinch if nobody else will reply. Give it a couple days at least, if nobody else shows then it will suffice.
 
Given how I already touched upon the heimdall topic in the previous 9K word thread before the CRT spam began, I'll just repost and reiterate what was said in the previous thread for arguments sake (not that I see it mattering at all this deep in the pipeline.)

Simply put, the spear is only mandatory to use in the first phase. He uses the spear to open up heimdall and after multiple attempts he lands a hit on him. After that first hit you never need to use the spear again. There is also some wording issues within the OP itself here.

Obviously, trying to read someone's mind whilst you're experiencing information overload is nigh-impossible, which is what gives Kratos the opportunity to bypass Heimdall's foresight and pummel him.

What is this part about information overload? He's disorienting him nothing more. I didn't know using the equivalent of using a flashbang against someone is akin to using Gojo's Unlimited Void on them.

As for after the first phase, kratos just brute forces his way through heimdalls abilities on his own. I will repost some gifs displaying this.







Spear Expulsion is no longer required, and to further showcase this using the spears expulsion doesn't net a guaranteed hit either.



The argument given for some of this in the previous thread was this:

This is all true, but it seems to me that the spear only needed to be activated once rather than continuously. An effect like overloading one's senses wouldn't fade after a couple of seconds, I imagine, and would persist throughout the fight. As I said before, the Draupnir spear is treated as a crutch for Kratos in this fight; It is very heavily implied that he could not win without its sensory-overloading effects, which is why assuming he can just adapt to whatever Heimdall throws at him requires far more evidence than the simpler explanation of "he only needed to use the spear once".

The idea that kratos only needed to use the spear once isn't even backed in the game. Kratos needed to explode the spear multiple times in his face and use that immediate advantage given to end up hitting heimdall the first time. The spear is like I said earlier, akin to a flashbang. It is a momentary disorientation for heimdalls senses, not some negation of his powers entirely. As shown in the last gif too, even using it continuously does not net guaranteed hits. Yes you can go on using the spear only in the second phase and gain success with it obviously, but you can also never pull it out and the fight plays the same. The second phase is focused on kratos overwhelming him in general and countering his realm shift.

Another point of context not brought up at all is the fact heimdall after the second phase states kratos' mind is empty as well. A point of contention brought up for this in the previous thread is that it was a "simple insult", nothing more.

Empty head is an insult to call someone stupid. Heimdall does soon after read Kratos' intent shortly after once the battle is paused during his impalement.

The argument also implied that heimdall ends up reading kratos' mind again after that statement, which is just not true. This is my response from the previous thread for it.

Eh, a characters who's entire shtick is reading peoples intentions and minds mentions kratos' head being empty after being beaten by him is coincidentally an insult? And no, heimdall never is capable of dodging kratos ever again after being pinned against the wall. And to play off unknowns points, heimdall after being hit once it is never required to explode the spear on him again during the fight to beat him, there are moments where he can dodge kratos and then he just can't anymore regardless of spear expulsion.

As for the third phase, heimdall never uses his foresight powers again, and simply attempts to physically brute force his way to victory.

To sum it up in a brief TLDR:

- The spear doesn't negate heimdalls powers nor does it cause some "info overload". It's just a momentary disorientation, nothing more.

- Kratos doesn't need to use the spear to overpower heimdalls abilities past phase 1 (see gifs above) and eventually heimdall is unable to use his abilities on kratos anymore.



I wouldn't expect further comments from me since im stupid busy from here on out, so just evaulate amongst yourselves.
 
Given how I already touched upon the heimdall topic in the previous 9K word thread before the CRT spam began, I'll just repost and reiterate what was said in the previous thread for arguments sake (not that I see it mattering at all this deep in the pipeline.)

Simply put, the spear is only mandatory to use in the first phase. He uses the spear to open up heimdall and after multiple attempts he lands a hit on him. After that first hit you never need to use the spear again. There is also some wording issues within the OP itself here.



What is this part about information overload? He's disorienting him nothing more. I didn't know using the equivalent of using a flashbang against someone is akin to using Gojo's Unlimited Void on them.

As for after the first phase, kratos just brute forces his way through heimdalls abilities on his own. I will repost some gifs displaying this.







Spear Expulsion is no longer required, and to further showcase this using the spears expulsion doesn't net a guaranteed hit either.


"Sensory overload" is quite literally how the game itself describes Draupnir's effects against Heimdall. I'm not pulling this out of my ass, the text as written is "overload his senses". Comparing that to a flashbang when we are explicitly told how the spear counters Heimdall's powers is disingenuous. As for Kratos not needing the spear after the first phase... yeah, no shit. He used the anti-Heimdall spear to counter Heimdall's powers, and then proceeds to beat up Heimdall, because his powers were rendered moot against the anti-Heimdall spear (the spear specifically designed to counter Heimdall). You don't really debunk that point, you just kinda... reassert that it's like a flashbang, when no, we're told how it works and it's definitely not like that.
 
Even setting that aside, the notion that Kratos just... spontaneously developed the ability to counter Heimdall's powers after the first phase of the fight without anything in the game ever mentioning this is just ridiculous. Clearly the spear stops being necessary because it has already imbalanced Heimdall enough.
 
"Sensory overload" is quite literally how the game itself describes Draupnir's effects against Heimdall. I'm not pulling this out of my ass, the text as written is "overload his senses". Comparing that to a flashbang when we are explicitly told how the spear counters Heimdall's powers is disingenuous. As for Kratos not needing the spear after the first phase... yeah, no shit. He used the anti-Heimdall spear to counter Heimdall's powers, and then proceeds to beat up Heimdall, because his powers were rendered moot against the anti-Heimdall spear (the spear specifically designed to counter Heimdall). You don't really debunk that point, you just kinda... reassert that it's like a flashbang, when no, we're told how it works and it's definitely not like that.
If it was as you say, Kratos could have easily hit Heimdall from the beginning of the battle because he was using the spear from the beginning, but it still took him time to hit him. From this perspective, saying that Kratos adapted and resisted over time and that's why he was able to hit Heimdall makes more sense than saying that Kratos was able to hit Heimdall because he was confused by the weapon (especially given the abilities and emotes)


In fact, if we look at the continuation of the battle, after a while you can see that Kratos can easily hit Heimdall without the spear, only with his own weapons (please don't ignore this point anymore), which means that the reason he can hit Heimdall is not because of the spear, because he adapts and resists him.

It's also a good shitty thing to do because now he can bombard Heimdall without a spear, showing that it's not the spear that allows him to hit him
 
If it was as you say, Kratos could have easily hit Heimdall from the beginning of the battle because he was using the spear from the beginning, but it still took him time to hit him. From this perspective, saying that Kratos adapted and resisted over time and that's why he was able to hit Heimdall makes more sense than saying that Kratos was able to hit Heimdall because he was confused by the weapon (especially given the abilities and emotes
No, this is directly contradicted by the game. You have to use the spear to build up Heimdall's stun meter before you're able to land a hit on him.

The entire premise involves Kratos getting a special weapon to overcome Heimdall's ability by overloading his senses. This makes little sense if what actually happens is Kratos spontaneously develops an ability to bypass it himself, and more importantly there is nothing in the source material that indicates this in the first place.

The fact that you need to use the spear cumulatively to overload his senses and then you can just use your normal weapons is not an indication of Kratos developing an ability. It's an indication that the spear worked.
 
No, this is directly contradicted by the game. You have to use the spear to build up Heimdall's stun meter before you're able to land a hit on him.

The entire premise involves Kratos getting a special weapon to overcome Heimdall's ability by overloading his senses. This makes little sense if what actually happens is Kratos spontaneously develops an ability to bypass it himself, and more importantly there is nothing in the source material that indicates this in the first place.

The fact that you need to use the spear cumulatively to overload his senses and then you can just use your normal weapons is not an indication of Kratos developing an ability. It's an indication that the spear worked.
If what you say were true, all his attacks with the spear at the beginning of the battle should have reached Heimdall. , but he was literally dodging almost all the attacks, including the cutscenes in the game.

Don't get me wrong, there is some truth in what you say because the spear was basically made for Heimdall. But towards the end of the battle, almost all his attacks were reaching Heimdall without spear.

With all this in mind, it's clear that it wasn't just a spear involved. If Kratos had not adapted to this in any way, his attacks would not have reached Heimdall without spear at the end of the battle.

Because according to you, the only reason he can hit him is because of this “spear”
 
If what you say were true, all his attacks with the spear at the beginning of the battle should have reached Heimdall
No, because the spear is progressively overloading his senses. It doesn't work instantly.

But towards the end of the battle, almost all his attacks were reaching Heimdall without spear.
Yes, because by that point the spear had successfully overloaded his senses.
 
Because according to you, the only reason he can hit him is because of this “spear”
Yes, because that is what the story tells us and that is what the central gameplay mechanic of his fight is. You throw the spear, the spear builds up a red stun meter, and when the meter is full you can beat up Heimdall (because of the spear). Are we talking about the same version of Ragnarok here, or is there some special version where none of these things happen?
 
Yes, because that is what the story tells us and that is what the central gameplay mechanic of his fight is. You throw the spear, the spear builds up a red stun meter, and when the meter is full you can beat up Heimdall (because of the spear). Are we talking about the same version of Ragnarok here, or is there some special version where none of these things happen?
The red stun bars were basically filling up multiple times, and Heimdall could still dodge our attacks when we attacked after the bar was full (in cutscenes in the game). So, if it was just because of the “spear”, Kratos basically couldn't hit him with bare hands because in the cutscene where Kratos first hits him, he doesn't have any equipment.

It wouldn't just be a case of “he hit Heimdall because of the spear”, if that were the case, he couldn't hit him in any way without the spear.

This is what I'm talking about
 
With all this in mind, it's clear that it wasn't just a spear involved. If Kratos had not adapted to this in any way, his attacks would not have reached Heimdall without spear at the end of the battle.
So you're right about one thing, Kratos did indeed bruteforce Heimdall to death after whittling him down with the spear-- even before Heimdall ate a ground sandwich, he clearly bloodied and out of juice after getting the norse equivalent of a flashbang many times over. You can easily chalk this up to cinematics-- if not exhaustion after having his ability countered.

I'm not exaggerating when I say the spear was instrumental in defeating Heimdall. If Kratos didn't have it, he would have been destroyed plain and simple. There's even a questline over getting Draupnir (the spear) that was a key part in even trying to kill Heimdall-- and the supporting characters in the game emphasize that Kratos could not harm Heimdall without it.

Even in Phase 2 of the fight, the Spear is necessary to hit Heimdall, because that's the object that's enabling Kratos to harm him in the first place.

The red stun bars were basically filling up multiple times, and Heimdall could still dodge our attacks when we attacked after the bar was full (in cutscenes in the game). So, if it was just because of the “spear”, Kratos basically couldn't hit him with bare hands because in the cutscene where Kratos first hits him, he doesn't have any equipment.

This is what I'm talking about
This is just game mechanics and the context to the first punch against Heimdall was to show to us, the player, that the spear's stun mechanic is working against Heimdall.

Heimdall attacks --> Kratos counters with a spear concussion --> concussion stuns Heimdall --> Heimdall is vulnerable and Kratos counters like the goat he is.
 
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The red stun bars were basically filling up multiple times, and Heimdall could still dodge our attacks when we attacked after the bar was full (in cutscenes in the game). So, if it was just because of the “spear”, Kratos basically couldn't hit him with bare hands because in the cutscene where Kratos first hits him, he doesn't have any equipment.

This is what I'm talking about
That is because he clearly can dismiss the spear into thin air or the spear is elsewhere so him doesn’t have any equipment in his hands is ultimately irrelevant. If memories served, the spear can been requip at anytime although that is just game mechanics, but narratively speaking, he probably have no use for the spear since it done the job. However, guess what, he literally blow up Heimdall’s arm off later on with the spear during the fight. You can literally see this at 6:41 for this video.

 
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The red stun bars were basically filling up multiple times, and Heimdall could still dodge our attacks when we attacked after the bar was full (in cutscenes in the game). So, if it was just because of the “spear”, Kratos basically couldn't hit him with bare hands because in the cutscene where Kratos first hits him, he doesn't have any equipment.

It wouldn't just be a case of “he hit Heimdall because of the spear”, if that were the case, he couldn't hit him in any way without the spear.
Dude, this is the exact same thing that's been explained multiple times. The spear cumulatively overloads Heimdall's senses. There's no reason for us to think the spear must work perfectly immediately (it's cumulative) and the point of using the spear is to overload his senses, it's never meant to be the only way you can cause damage.
 
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