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The Great Odyssean Quest to Downgrade God of War ⌈Part 5⌋ [Reactive Evolution Edition!]

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Let's talk about reactive evolution, and some tangentially related topics. I'm saving one of these feats for later, so hopefully what I have here will be enough to satisfy those of you hungry for another 9000-word long essay on why Kratos is stupid and gay or whatever.

Also, happy pride!

Zeus' Resistance Negation/Reactive Evolution, + Kratos' Resistance to Soul Manipulation via the Arms of Hades

Zeus has reactive evolution and resistance negation for supposedly negating Kratos' resistance to the waters of the river Styx. The context is here; Kratos is struck by a bolt of lightning, falls into the Styx, and the souls within drain his health, magic, and experience. The basis for this is that Kratos resisted these effects prior to God of War 3 (to clarify, this means the resistance to the river's effects granted via the Soul of Hades are not relevant to this discussion), and his inability to do so after Zeus blasts him is attributable to some sort of innate ability to remove resistances. What's more, the fact that his lightning bolts failed to do this in previous games

The resistance negation half is easy to disprove. For starters, if this is indeed the case, Kratos wouldn't just have his powers absorbed - He'd die outright, which clearly does not happen. The Styx kills whatever enters its waters, which Kratos can resist, so if Zeus negated that resistance... well, you can probably imagine what would happen.

So, what about the souls of Hades? Well, the problem is written into the name. The souls of Hades and the Styx are not one and the same; The souls live there, and can pose a threat to those immersed in its waters, but they are not always a threat. We see this to some extent in GoW3, where Kratos can traverse small sections of the Styx without getting his powers absorbed. While it's implied he endured the Styx in Chains of Olympus, we don't actually see this event occur, and thus cannot determine if he was attacked by these wayward souls, let alone resisted their absorption. There's no other scene which we can use to safely claim that so much as dipping your toes in the water drains your power; It is something only attributable to an entity living in the river, and much like a shark in an ocean, they're not always going to hunt down and kill any unfortunate swimmers.

Kratos has dealt with similar effects before, but he also fails to demonstrate any sort of resistance there, either. The justification for Kratos resisting this sort of absorption also cites this comic panel, where Kratos fights off the arms of Hades, but you can probably notice a major issue - The arms aren't actually grabbing Kratos (the trigger for their absorption), but are being torn apart by him. Much like the Priest of Fate "feat", Kratos is not resisting any sort of hax here, but merely keeping a dangerous enemy at bay. The arms' effects also take time to activate, giving Kratos ample time to fight back. When Kratos is grappled by the arms, he needs to be brought back to life by Gaia, is shown breaking free of their grip, and then straight up leaving; Again, not really a resistance in any sense of the word (especially since half of this feat is accomplished via outside help). The arms take time to trigger their effects, further supporting the idea that he just breaks their grip before they can do lasting harm.

In conclusion, Zeus wouldn't need to negate Kratos' resistance to absorption, because it wasn't a resistance he ever had in the first place. Naturally, Kratos' resistances from battling the arms of Hades would need to be removed as well.

So what about reactive evolution? That is founded solely on the basis that Zeus gained resistance negation on a whim, which... I mean, the last few paragraphs were dedicated to explaining why he didn't actually do that, so the foundation of reactive evolution being bunk means reactive evo has to go.

So, to recap:
  • Kratos has never been shown to resist the effects of the souls of Hades or the arms of Hades, meaning Zeus would not require any sort of resistance negation. This would also remove resistance to soul manipulation from Kratos' demigod key, as that is based on him resisting the souls/arms of Hades.
  • If Kratos truly had his resistance negated, the waters of the Styx would have killed him.
  • Because Zeus' resistance negation is bunk, his reactive evolution also ought to be removed.
Wait, What About the Furies?

If I'm seriously proposing that demigod Kratos lose his resistance to soul manipulation (which I am), then I also need to tackle the other half of that justification. The first issue is that, as discussed previously, Kratos is affected by the Furies. They drive him to the brink of insanity, which indicates that he really did not handle their torture very well. That aside, let's look at how he supposedly resists their torture; Megaera slaps Kratos, he dodges her attacks, and then breaks his chains and tackles her. She doesn't even get to torture him! Much like the Priest of Fate (again), Kratos is merely preventing something from affecting him in the first place, which is not a resistance. And when he is exposed to the Furies' torture, the manual outright clarifies that he was affected by their hax. Finally, it's worth noting that breaking someone in "body, mind, and soul" is a common turn of phrase that doesn't really indicate literally affecting the soul.

Reactive Evolution [Ragnarok Kratos]

This stems from Kratos adapting to and resisting Heimdall’s attempts to read his mind. This is, devoid of context, fine. The problem is that in this fight, Kratos wields the Draupnir spear, a weapon forged specifically to counter Heimdall's abilities by overloading his senses. Obviously, trying to read someone's mind whilst you're experiencing information overload is nigh-impossible, which is what gives Kratos the opportunity to bypass Heimdall's foresight and pummel him. This also leads into a secondary problem of how, if Kratos can just resist/adapt Heimdall's hax by himself, then him needing the Draupnir spear at all makes 0 sense. Given that part of Kratos' resistance to telepathy is contingent on this feat, that would also need to be removed.

Reactive Evolution & Power Nullification [Demigod Kratos]

Time to cover Castor and Pollux again (everybody's favorite!). The basis here is quite simple: The duo have a magic amulet that can mess with time in a variety of ways. Throughout the fight, Kratos is shown overpowering their attempts to use the amulet's power against them. It is concluded, then, that Kratos was gradually developing a resistance over the course of the battle, as he was stated to be affected by it at the very start (but could later overpower it without issue). He is also assumed to be able to nullify its powers for more or less the same reason, as Castor and Pollux very briefly lose control of the amulet when Kratos beats them up.

Starting simply, these abilities contradict each other. If Kratos nullified the amulet's power, then he doesn't need to resist anything (because anything he'd need to "resist" has already been nullified). If Kratos adapted to the amulet's hax, then he both didn't nullify it (as the amulet can obviously still use its hax against him, even if he resists it) and wouldn't need to. If one of these abilities is valid, then the other isn't. You can't have your reactive evolution and power nullification it too, as the saying goes.

Of course, the individual abilities themselves are also bad. For power nullification, the extent to which we see Kratos "nullify" their powers is that the green glow surrounding their weapons dissipates for a quarter of a second after every hit. It's important to note that Castor and Pollux do require some degree of skill and focus to use the amulet; According to WoG, the amulet is something you can get better and better at using, and the twins have limits on their usage of it. That is to say, being slapped around by the world's angriest man would be one hell of a distraction, and naturally make it difficult to maintain the focus necessary to use the amulet. Its effects aren't passive, and it's just like any other activated item in that its use can be prevented if you interrupt the user; That isn't power null at all.

Reactive evolution is also predicated on this scene, in which Castor and Pollux move in for the kill and Kratos parries them. This would be fine, if Kratos was frozen in time and then spontaneously broke out. But you can literally see him tracking their movements in first person, even swaying back and forth in doing so. He is explicitly capable of movement, so him moving isn't really indicative of any sudden explosive growth that negs time stop or whatever. Him "overpowering" the amulet is also bad; He is, yet again, simply pushing them away before they can use the full extent of the amulet's power against him. They never use it to its fullest extent against him, because he doesn't let them; If Kratos fails to push them away, he outright dies.

This was a lengthy thread, so allow me to recap what would change should everything pass:
  • Zeus loses Reactive Evolution and Resistance Negation.
  • Ragnarok Kratos loses Reactive Evolution and part of his resistance to Telepathy justification.
  • Demigod Kratos loses his innate Power Nullification, and part of his Reactive Evolution justification.
  • Demigod Kratos loses his resistance to Soul Manipulation, Madness Manipulation, Transmutation, Absorption, Power Nullification, Deconstruction, Precognition, Clairvoyance, Statistics Reduction, Time Manipulation, Time Stop, and part of his resistance to Age Manipulation justification.
  • God Kratos loses part of his resistance to Precognition and Clairvoyance justification.
 
So, what about the souls of Hades? Well, the problem is written into the name. The souls of Hades and the Styx are not one and the same; The souls live there, and can pose a threat to those immersed in its waters, but they are not always a threat. We see this to some extent in GoW3, where Kratos can traverse small sections of the Styx without getting his powers absorbed.
Expect that there aren't. We literally don't vist the river until we get Hades's soul.
While it's implied he endured the Styx in Chains of Olympus, we don't actually see this event occur, and thus cannot determine if he was attacked by these wayward souls, let alone resisted their absorption. There's no other scene which we can use to safely claim that so much as dipping your toes in the water drains your power; It is something only attributable to an entity living in the river, and much like a shark in an ocean, they're not always going to hunt down and kill any unfortunate swimmers.
The only description we get from the souls is that they desire magic and life-force and would greedily strip them away.

Not only is this purely speculative, but it's contradictory to the only description we get from them.
The arms take time to trigger their effects, further supporting the idea that he just breaks their grip before they can do lasting harm.
The Arms absorption abilities are literally caused the second they strike an opponent.

Something Kratos doesn't have a problem with.
If I'm seriously proposing that demigod Kratos lose his resistance to soul manipulation (which I am), then I also need to tackle the other half of that justification. The first issue is that, as discussed previously, Kratos is affected by the Furies. They drive him to the brink of insanity, which indicates that he really did not handle their torture very well. That aside, let's look at how he supposedly resists their torture; Megaera slaps Kratos, he dodges her attacks, and then breaks his chains and tackles her. She doesn't even get to torture him! Much like the Priest of Fate (again), Kratos is merely preventing something from affecting him in the first place, which is not a resistance. And when he is exposed to the Furies' torture, the manual outright clarifies that he was affected by their hax. Finally, it's worth noting that breaking someone in "body, mind, and soul" is a common turn of phrase that doesn't really indicate literally affecting the soul.
Out of context. He's only affected after his defeat second at their hands. Before that he was fine, and he still wasn't as insane as other prisoners.

The Furies torturing someone's soul is literal as said by the developers. And most of it is not even from WoG, it's from how the Furies manipulate someone's mind (a part of the soul in God of war) and their ability to use Haden energy.
This stems from Kratos adapting to and resisting Heimdall’s attempts to read his mind. This is, devoid of context, fine. The problem is that in this fight, Kratos wields the Draupnir spear, a weapon forged specifically to counter Heimdall's abilities by overloading his senses. Obviously, trying to read someone's mind whilst you're experiencing information overload is nigh-impossible, which is what gives Kratos the opportunity to bypass Heimdall's foresight and pummel him. This also leads into a secondary problem of how, if Kratos can just resist/adapt Heimdall's hax by himself, then him needing the Draupnir spear at all makes 0 sense. Given that part of Kratos' resistance to telepathy is contingent on this feat, that would also need to be removed.
I'm gonna comment on this later as I don't have the scans with as of now.

Edit: i do have the scans now. Anyway, it's clear that even with Draupnir Kratos couldn't hit Heimdall. It doesn't make sense to attribute Heimdall's abilities becoming ineffective against Kratos to the Draupnir, considering that even Mimir begins questioning what options they have after Draupnir's explosively abilities not working against Heimdall. Heck, Heimdall literally mocks Kratos for considering the Spear as some sort advantage.
Time to cover Castor and Pollux again (everybody's favorite!). The basis here is quite simple: The duo have a magic amulet that can mess with time in a variety of ways. Throughout the fight, Kratos is shown overpowering their attempts to use the amulet's power against them. It is concluded, then, that Kratos was gradually developing a resistance over the course of the battle, as he was stated to be affected by it at the very start (but could later overpower it without issue). He is also assumed to be able to nullify its powers for more or less the same reason, as Castor and Pollux very briefly lose control of the amulet when Kratos beats them up.

Starting simply, these abilities contradict each other. If Kratos nullified the amulet's power, then he doesn't need to resist anything (because anything he'd need to "resist" has already been nullified). If Kratos adapted to the amulet's hax, then he both didn't nullify it (as the amulet can obviously still use its hax against him, even if he resists it) and wouldn't need to. If one of these abilities is valid, then the other isn't. You can't have your reactive evolution and power nullification it too, as the saying goes
.
Expect they don't. Kratos's power nullification comes from him causing the Twins to return to their old age, while his resistance is him not getting affected by the ability later on. This is a misunderstanding of the page.
Of course, the individual abilities themselves are also bad. For power nullification, the extent to which we see Kratos "nullify" their powers is that the green glow surrounding their weapons dissipates for a quarter of a second after every hit. It's important to note that Castor and Pollux do require some degree of skill and focus to use the amulet; According to WoG, the amulet is something you can get better and better at using, and the twins have limits on their usage of it. That is to say, being slapped around by the world's angriest man would be one hell of a distraction, and naturally make it difficult to maintain the focus necessary to use the amulet. Its effects aren't passive, and it's just like any other activated item in that its use can be prevented if you interrupt the user; That isn't power null at all.
Again, it comes from negating the effects it had on themselves. Regardless, it's made extremely clear that the twins used the Amulet abilities to it's fullest extent in the fight, and these limits they had were holding back limits.

And we do now that the Amulet’s age Manipulation effect stays on even if not in use.
Reactive evolution is also predicated on this scene, in which Castor and Pollux move in for the kill and Kratos parries them. This would be fine, if Kratos was frozen in time and then spontaneously broke out. But you can literally see him tracking their movements in first person, even swaying back and forth in doing so. He is explicitly capable of movement, so him moving isn't really indicative of any sudden explosive growth that negs time stop or whatever.
Tracking a person while being pinned is a common feat in fiction that doesn't contradict it. Regardless, he isn't affected by any attacks that the amulet utilized.
Him "overpowering" the amulet is also bad; He is, yet again, simply pushing them away before they can use the full extent of the amulet's power against him. They never use it to its fullest extent against him, because he doesn't let them; If Kratos fails to push them away, he outright dies.
This again? Let's go over what you're saying.

1, Kratos instantly dies if he's touched by their magic.
2, he avoided their attack in the successful version of the QTE.

Yeah, this is blatantly false. He's literally grabbed for 7 straight seconds while being completely unaffected. Not only does this contradict the FALIED QTE, but it proves he didn't avoid it, as he's being grabbed, and you can't avoid something while being grabbed.
 
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Will respond to the rest shortly, but:
Expect that there aren't. We literally don't vist the river until we get Hades's soul.
He literally falls in the river at the beginning of the game, though? That's why he loses his magic in the first place?
 
Yeah, but you're argument revolves on him visiting other parts where he doesn't get absorbed. That simply doesn't happen.
The souls don't instantly jump him and absorb all his magic the instant he lands. He swims for a bit, gets a bit of magic absorbed, swims for a bit, etc. The river doesn't instantly drain the magic of whatever he touches. The point is that, since there's no confirmation or implication that Kratos was attacked by errant souls in his previous forays into the Styx (yknow, the single other time it happens, which literally happens off screen), he wouldn't need to resist their absorption.
 
The souls don't instantly jump him and absorb all his magic the instant he lands. He swims for a bit, gets a bit of magic absorbed, swims for a bit, etc. The river doesn't instantly drain the magic of whatever he touches. The point is that, since there's no confirmation or implication that Kratos was attacked by errant souls in his previous forays into the Styx (yknow, the single other time it happens, which literally happens off screen), he wouldn't need to resist their absorption.
That's even a bigger assumption. So the river that overflows with greedy souls that absorb your magic, life-force, etc just suddenly decide not to? With the only evidence supporting this being Kratos able to swim in very, very small sections of it?

It's even worse considering that we visit a much larger area of the Styx, which would undoubtedly have Souls who would absorb it.
 
The only description we get from the souls is that they desire magic and life-force and would greedily strip them away.

Not only is this purely speculative, but it's contradictory to the only description we get from them.
I uh, never tried to argue the souls don't absorb magic and lifeforce? They explicitly do that. I'm saying that, just because you enter the river, doesn't mean you get instantly ganked by them. They're a potential threat, sure, but that doesn't mean everyone who touches the river has their powers absorbed; They would need to encounter the souls that live there for that to happen. If you're referring to the "this is unavoidable" statement, it just says that because it's a scripted sequence in a video game, not because the souls themselves are unavoidable.
This is a horrible example because Kratos straight up doesn't have a magic bar in that scene. So it's impossible for us to tell one way or another if they were absorbing his magic there. Although, in the first scan, the arms don't absorb magic at all. It might be the case that the souls and the arms of Hades have different abilities.
First of all, "not as insane" would still debunk the notion of a resistance, since he was, yknow, driven insane. Your claim that he was only affected the second time is wrong; The game says he was driven mad in the opening cutscene before cutting to Megaera torturing Kratos. If he was affected by their torture, then he doesn't resist it.
The Furies torturing someone's soul is literal as said by the developers. And most of it is not even from WoG, it's from how the Furies manipulate someone's mind (a part of the soul in God of war) and their ability to use Haden energy.
First scan is fine, though as I said before, Kratos was affected by their torture so he'd lose his resistance anyways. Should also probably note that only one of the Furies has soulhax, seeing as there's a clear division in their roles (wouldn't really need a dedicated "soul Fury" if they can all use soulhax, after all). The second scan is driving me crazy, though. What is supposed to prove soulhax here? Kratos gets stabbed and that's it. Is it because Megaera's legs are glowing purple??
What a clear misinterpretation of events. Kratos rebukes Mimir by continuing to use the spear anyways, and you can see that stubbornness pay off when he spams the spear throw and successfully catches Heimdall off guard with it. So, while it doesn't work right away, the game makes it clear that it does work regardless; In fact, multiple guides point out how you can ONLY damage Heimdall with the Draupnir spear because nothing else can hit him. That alone should debunk the whole notion of "reactive evolution" on Kratos' part.

Heimdall mocking Kratos is also a funny point, because the fight makes it clear that he's just an overconfident prick lol
Again, it comes from negating the effects it had on themselves. Regardless, it's made extremely clear that the twins used the Amulet abilities to it's fullest extent in the fight, and these limits they had were holding back limits.

And we do now that the Amulet’s age Manipulation effect stays on even if not in use.
The actual quote is "They used it to the full extent they were capable of at the time". This is followed by the quote "It's like a tool, where you can get better at using it". So even without holding back, they couldn't use the amulet's full power; They just used it to the extent that they were capable of.

The second scan is confusing me. Kratos is explicitly using the amulet in that scene, its effects aren't passive. If someone interrupted him while the reversal was occurring, I doubt the reversal would continue unhindered. Sure, the bridge stays in place after he's done, but... it's a bridge, restoring it to a former state means it'll stay that way because it's built to not collapse, so it'll stay up even if the amulet's effects are negated.
Tracking a person while being pinned is a common feat in fiction that doesn't contradict it. Regardless, he isn't affected by any attacks that the amulet utilized.
It does contradict it, because it shows he can indeed react to their movements while affected by the amulet. He's slowed down, but he doesn't need to "adapt" in order to move at all.

Also do you have a source for that second claim or nah
This again? Let's go over what you're saying.

1, Kratos instantly dies if he's touched by their magic.
2, he avoided their attack in the successful version of the QTE.

Yeah, this is blatantly false. He's literally grabbed for 7 straight seconds while being completely unaffected. Not only does this contradict the FALIED QTE, but it proves he didn't avoid it, as he's being grabbed, and you can't avoid something while being grabbed.
He literally pushes them away, the entire point is to keep them away. In the successful QTE, Castor and Pollux don't even get to use their magic against him; He overpowers their attempts to do so, cutting them off before they can hurt him by beating them up. In the failed QTE, he doesn't push them away in time, so they successfully use their magic on him, and it kills him.

That's all this is: Kratos lives if he prevents the twins from using their magic, and if he doesn't, he dies.
 
Call me crazy but these threads all pretty much look like things that got rejected in the first attempt and are being spammed in the hopes of getting something accepted (and apparently it's working as every attempt is chipping stuff out of the profiles).

I'm sure that kind of strategy isn't allowed.
Correct, I am evil and will continue using dirty tactics to ensure that Kratos has no hax and will be downgraded to peak human level and subsonic speed like he deserves. Only after my daily routine of kicking puppies and burning orphanages, of course.
 
That's even a bigger assumption. So the river that overflows with greedy souls that absorb your magic, life-force, etc just suddenly decide not to? With the only evidence supporting this being Kratos able to swim in very, very small sections of it?

It's even worse considering that we visit a much larger area of the Styx, which would undoubtedly have Souls who would absorb it.
I mean, yeah? He falls in the Styx twice, and only one of those instances is on-screen. It's not even that the souls "decide" not to; They live in the river, sure, but that doesn't mean they're everywhere all at once. It's possible to swim in a piranha-infested river and make it out alive, even if the piranhas usually eat people. The same logic should apply for the souls in the Styx. But then again, we also don't know how things played out in Chains of Olympus because we literally do not see it happen.

Also, you didn't respond to a pretty important point regarding Zeus' resistance negation - If he negated Kratos' resistance to the effects of the Styx, then why didn't Kratos die? I mean, if he doesn't resist its effects, then surely he'd succumb to the river's insta-kill effects.
 
I uh, never tried to argue the souls don't absorb magic and lifeforce? They explicitly do that. I'm saying that, just because you enter the river, doesn't mean you get instantly ganked by them. They're a potential threat, sure, but that doesn't mean everyone who touches the river has their powers absorbed; They would need to encounter the souls that live there for that to happen. If you're referring to the "this is unavoidable" statement, it just says that because it's a scripted sequence in a video game, not because the souls themselves are unavoidable.
Expect it does. Regardless, the river literally overflows with souls who are noted to be greedy about magic, Kratos falls into one of the most gigantic areas of the Styx, which would naturally have them. Yet, he clearly isn't affected.
This is a horrible example because Kratos straight up doesn't have a magic bar in that scene. So it's impossible for us to tell one way or another if they were absorbing his magic there. Although, in the first scan, the arms don't absorb magic at all. It might be the case that the souls and the arms of Hades have different abilities.
They do, and not only magic but life-force as well. Which clearly wasn't absorbed in any way.
First of all, "not as insane" would still debunk the notion of a resistance
It literally doesn't. He isn't as affected as others, which indeed is a resistance.
Your claim that he was only affected the second time is wrong; The game says he was driven mad in the opening cutscene before cutting to Megaera torturing Kratos. If he was affected by their torture, then he doesn't resist it.
Ascension doesn't have a chronological story. That's universally known about the game.
The second scan is driving me crazy, though. What is supposed to prove soulhax here? Kratos gets stabbed and that's it. Is it because Megaera's legs are glowing purple??
They're glowing purple... with Haden energy... you know? The thing behind soul magic?
What a clear misinterpretation of events. Kratos rebukes Mimir by continuing to use the spear anyways, and you can see that stubbornness pay off when he spams the spear throw and successfully catches Heimdall off guard with it. So, while it doesn't work right away, the game makes it clear that it does work regardless; In fact, multiple guides point out how you can ONLY damage Heimdall with the Draupnir spear because nothing else can hit him. That alone should debunk the whole notion of "reactive evolution" on Kratos' part.

Heimdall mocking Kratos is also a funny point, because the fight makes it clear that he's just an overconfident prick lol
Lmao, Kratos doesn't need to use the Draupnir, we see him using other weapons with no problem. And these guides aren't canon, why the hell are you trying to use them?
The actual quote is "They used it to the full extent they were capable of at the time"
Fuji... I highlighted the quote, this is blatantly lying.
The second scan is confusing me. Kratos is explicitly using the amulet in that scene, its effects aren't passive. If someone interrupted him while the reversal was occurring, I doubt the reversal would continue unhindered. Sure, the bridge stays in place after he's done, but... it's a bridge, restoring it to a former state means it'll stay that way because it's built to not collapse, so it'll stay up even if the amulet's effects are negated.
Funny, because he can stop mid moment and nothing happens.
It does contradict it, because it shows he can indeed react to their movements while affected by the amulet. He's slowed down, but he doesn't need to "adapt" in order to move at all.
It doesn't. And what are trying to say? He's slowed yet he regains his speed later? That's still evidence.
Also do you have a source for that second claim or nah
Yeah.
He literally pushes them away, the entire point is to keep them away.
He's being held, for 7 straight up seconds. There's no way, for you to interpret it like this.
In the successful QTE, Castor and Pollux don't even get to use their magic against him
It's clearly there. What are you talking about?
He overpowers their attempts to do so, cutting them off before they can hurt him by beating them up. In the failed QTE, he doesn't push them away in time, so they successfully use their magic on him, and it kills him.
Fuji. You are just lying right now, here's the scan. It just cleary isn't the case.
 
I mean, yeah? He falls in the Styx twice, and only one of those instances is on-screen. It's not even that the souls "decide" not to; They live in the river, sure, but that doesn't mean they're everywhere all at once. It's possible to swim in a piranha-infested river and make it out alive, even if the piranhas usually eat people. The same logic should apply for the souls in the Styx. But then again, we also don't know how things played out in Chains of Olympus because we literally do not see it happen.
The river is literally called the river of souls. And it clearly has souls essentially everywhere.

The entire Underworld has souls flying around for God's sake.
 
The assumption that the river of souls is just randomly empty is the funniest part of this whole thread. As is the fact that there's a hyper fixation on the Arms when;

  • The wall of Hadean Energy that also transmuted the lost souls is something that he has no problem coming near himself, in the very next trial of Erebus after that.
  • This same energy is something we see used against him by Megaera in Ascension, something we can be fairly sure of given its identical to the energy that Soul of Hades gives you in the same game.

Saying this to undercut the needless text flinging.
 
Expect it does. Regardless, the river literally overflows with souls who are noted to be greedy about magic, Kratos falls into one of the most gigantic areas of the Styx, which would naturally have them. Yet, he clearly isn't affected.
Pepsi, everything you are saying is an assumption. We explicitly do not see these events happen. We don't even see Kratos hit the water; It just hard cuts to him chained to a wall. Where are you getting your information from?
They do, and not only magic but life-force as well. Which clearly wasn't absorbed in any way.
...This doesn't debunk anything I just said. Of course Kratos isn't going to get his magic absorbed if he literally does not have magic, and the arms clearly do not absorb the magic of the enemies Kratos uses them against.
It literally doesn't. He isn't as affected as others, which indeed is a resistance.
He was driven insane. You cannot seriously be suggesting we give someone resistance to madness hax because they were driven insane.
Ascension doesn't have a chronological story. That's universally known about the game.
Does not change the fact that he was affected by their hax, which is the entire point.
They're glowing purple... with Haden energy... you know? The thing behind soul magic?
I know that's what you're claiming. But what says it's Hadean energy? All the context you've given is that Megaera has some kind of Purple Magic, and you're insistent that that must correlate with soul hax. I mean, does the Spear of Destiny have soul hax too because it can make things purple? Where do you draw the line on this "purple magic = soul magic" stance?
Fuji... I highlighted the quote, this is blatantly lying.
No, you said the twins used the amulet's powers to the AMULET's fullest extent (as in, using everything the AMULET was capable of). The original quote says the twins used it to the fullest extent that THEY (the twins) were capable of; They have limits on their power, and the WoG quote says that they reached that limit. That is different from reaching the limits of the amulet.

So, who's the liar here?
Lmao, Kratos doesn't need to use the Draupnir, we see him using other weapons with no problem. And these guides aren't canon, why the hell are you trying to use them?
Yeah, because the stun bar (the red bar underneath Heimdall's health bar) is full. That bar fills up when Kratos uses the Draupnir spear, and when it's full, he can hit him. Heimdall having his senses overloaded means he can't read anything, not just attacks from the spear. Also, I'm using the guides because they explain a gameplay mechanic not outright stated in the game itself. You do, in fact, require the Draupnir spear to beat Heimdall (Kratos can't adapt his way out of it), and this is something people who play the game are cognizant of.
He's being held, for 7 straight up seconds. There's no way, for you to interpret it like this.
...And he's fighting back against them and trying to push them away the entire time. That is how grappling works.
Fuji. You are just lying right now, here's the scan. It just cleary isn't the case.
God, you use the term "lying" a lot for someone who evidently doesn't know what it means. They are struggling against each other. The twins are trying to use the amulet against each other. Kratos grabs their arm, engages in a struggle where he keeps their arm away from him, and then seconds later overpowers them and knocks them out. That doesn't require a resistance, or power null, or what have you; It is literally just punching a guy attempting to use magic.
The river is literally called the river of souls. And it clearly has souls essentially everywhere.

The entire Underworld has souls flying around for God's sake.
"Souls everywhere" and it's like, 12 of them. They're also not bothering Kratos in the scan you provided, so this actually disproves your whole point; People can in fact swim through the river without the souls wantonly attacking them, which was my point from the start.

You can keep saying this all you want but it won't change the fact that Chains of Olympus is totally irrelevant here because we straight up do not see those events happen. Maybe Kratos landed on a small strip of land (the next time we see him, he is on dry land with no real explanation, and is also very dry), maybe he outswam the souls, maybe he landed in an area without any souls, maybe he did get some of his magic absorbed, I don't know. Nobody knows, because we don't see these events happen, and we aren't told what happened either.
  • This same energy is something we see used against him by Megaera in Ascension, something we can be fairly sure of given its identical to the energy that Soul of Hades gives you in the same game.
Is there anything actually saying it's the same, or is this based on her magic being purple? I hope it's not the latter, because "all purple magic is soul magic" is an insane reach.
 
Pepsi, everything you are saying is an assumption. We explicitly do not see these events happen. We don't even see Kratos hit the water; It just hard cuts to him chained to a wall. Where are you getting your information from?
Expect that we do. The game literally shows this.
This doesn't debunk anything I just said. Of course Kratos isn't going to get his magic absorbed if he literally does not have magic, and the arms clearly do not absorb the magic of the enemies Kratos uses them against.
Lifeforce is literally magic within the series, it not being absorbed would colorate with Magic.
He was driven insane. You cannot seriously be suggesting we give someone resistance to madness hax because they were driven insane.
He's only driven insane after his second defeat at their hands, and he wasn't as affected ad others. It's a resistance.
Does not change the fact that he was affected by their hax, which is the entire point.
Only affected after his second defeat at their hands. He isn't at all affected for the first half where he resists the same effects from the Oath.
I know that's what you're claiming. But what says it's Hadean energy? All the context you've given is that Megaera has some kind of Purple Magic, and you're insistent that that must correlate with soul hax. I mean, does the Spear of Destiny have soul hax too because it can make things purple? Where do you draw the line on this "purple magic = soul magic" stance?
Is there anything actually saying it's the same, or is this based on her magic being purple? I hope it's not the latter, because "all purple magic is soul magic" is an insane reach.
Because the game makes it clear it's the same as the power ups Kratos gets. To quote the Profile,

"Can spawn parasites of various elemental effects including Fire, Lightning, Ice and Soul, all of which explode upon reaching their target. Megaera can also coat her Spider Arms with potent Soul Energy.[2]"

It isn't unreasonable to consider them the same, as it's clear in the game that these magics are common even with fodder enemies(and Kratos would get resistance because these enemies can attack him all they want and they don't affect him)
No, you said the twins used the amulet's powers to the AMULET's fullest extent (as in, using everything the AMULET was capable of). The original quote says the twins used it to the fullest extent that THEY (the twins) were capable of; They have limits on their power, and the WoG quote says that they reached that limit. That is different from reaching the limits of the amulet.

So, who's the liar here?
Because they make it clear that it's talking about the Amulet. To quote,

DC: Hmmm that partly makes sense but I thought you said they were using it as best as they could? That implies not toying around no?

Tony Hutny: they have limitations on what they can do with it. As the fight progressed they used it to its fullest extent.

There's no way for your interpretation to be legitimate.
Yeah, because the stun bar (the red bar underneath Heimdall's health bar) is full. That bar fills up when Kratos uses the Draupnir spear, and when it's full, he can hit him. Heimdall having his senses overloaded means he can't read anything, not just attacks from the spear. Also, I'm using the guides because they explain a gameplay mechanic not outright stated in the game itself. You do, in fact, require the Draupnir spear to beat Heimdall (Kratos can't adapt his way out of it), and this is something people who play the game are cognizant of.
Sure. I can concede to that.
And he's fighting back against them and trying to push them away the entire time. That is how grappling works.
And he doesn't. He's still held.
God, you use the term "lying" a lot for someone who evidently doesn't know what it means. They are struggling against each other. The twins are trying to use the amulet against each other. Kratos grabs their arm, engages in a struggle where he keeps their arm away from him, and then seconds later overpowers them and knocks them out. That doesn't require a resistance, or power null, or what have you; It is literally just punching a guy attempting to use magic.
His arm is held for 7 seconds, so it's clearly not away. They are not using it on themselves, they're clearly doing it to Kratos.

And it still doesn't address most of the counter argument.
Souls everywhere" and it's like, 12 of them
Yeah, after the guy who keeps them there dies.
They're also not bothering Kratos in the scan you provided, so this actually disproves your whole point; People can in fact swim through the river without the souls wantonly attacking them, which was my point from the start.
After he has Hades's soul....
Maybe Kratos landed on a small strip of land (the next time we see him, he is on dry land with no real explanation, and is also very dry)
Impossible because we see that there's no land where he falls.
maybe he outswam the souls
While unconscious... really?
maybe he landed in an area without any souls, maybe he did get some of his magic absorbed, I don't know. Nobody knows, because we don't see these events happen, and we aren't told what happened either.
The river of souls being empty is simply laughable. And we see he still has magic so it couldn't have been absorbed.
 
Call me crazy but these threads all pretty much look like things that got rejected in the first attempt and are being spammed in the hopes of getting something accepted (and apparently it's working as every attempt is chipping stuff out of the profiles).

I'm sure that kind of strategy isn't allowed.
Fuji made arguments, and they were accepted. Your complaining is unhelpful.
 
Lifeforce is literally magic within the series, it not being absorbed would colorate with Magic.
As far as the gameplay is concerned (and we ARE talking about gameplay depictions here, since that's where the absorption comes from in the first place), they are not. You have two separate bars for a reason, and the arms of Hades demonstrably do not absorb magic when attacking fodder enemies. Hell, the fact that the souls absorbed all of Kratos' magic, but he still had a portion of his life left over, shows a level of disconnect between the two.
pN8QEhN.png

This is Kratos' HUD after the absorption is all said and done. Half life, zero magic. If he lost all his magic, then how does he have any lifeforce left?
......No, we don't. Charon throws Kratos off a cliff. The scene fades. Cut to Kratos chained up on a wall, before breaking the chains. Cut back to Charon on the Styx, and Kratos is back. That's it. We don't see Kratos land, we don't see him fight off any souls, we don't see him get his magic absorbed or him resisting it, we are given no context whatsoever.
He's only driven insane after his second defeat at their hands, and he wasn't as affected ad others. It's a resistance.
This is fucking me up, because I'm looking at the timeline of events right now and the Furies only defeat and capture Kratos once. Are you referring to the illusions they use against him? Also, being driven insane by madness manipulation means you do not resist madness manipulation. At bare minimum you would need to clarify that he "resists" these effects to the extent of... still being affected by them.
Because the game makes it clear it's the same as the power ups Kratos gets. To quote the Profile,

"Can spawn parasites of various elemental effects including Fire, Lightning, Ice and Soul, all of which explode upon reaching their target. Megaera can also coat her Spider Arms with potent Soul Energy.[2]"

It isn't unreasonable to consider them the same, as it's clear in the game that these magics are common even with fodder enemies(and Kratos would get resistance because these enemies can attack him all they want and they don't affect him)
Dude. That's literally the exact same scan we were already discussing. All it shows is Megaera hitting Kratos with the color purple! No mention of souls, or soul energy, or Hadean energy is made; It's Just Fucking Purple. It is absolutely unreasonable to consider them the same when the only evidence you have provided thus far is "well they're both purple". Is there any more context beyond the shared color scheme?
Because they make it clear that it's talking about the Amulet. To quote,

DC: Hmmm that partly makes sense but I thought you said they were using it as best as they could? That implies not toying around no?

Tony Hutny: they have limitations on what they can do with it. As the fight progressed they used it to its fullest extent.

There's no way for your interpretation to be legitimate.
You are outright ignoring the context from earlier in the discussion, where he says the twins were using it to the extent that they were capable of. He even implies this in the quote you linked, where he says that they have limitations on what they can do with it. With that in mind, the second sentence is clearly meant to say they used it to the fullest extent they were capable of; Otherwise, Tony would be walking back a comment he made not even a week prior, which seems like a far less likely interpretation.
Sure. I can concede to that.
Cool. In that case, I supposed Glass and Planck probably also agree with removing the Ragnarok stuff.
Impossible because we see that there's no land where he falls.
We don't see anything where he falls, Pepsi. Genuinely, what are you talking about? Is there a secret bonus cutscene I missed or something?
The river of souls being empty is simply laughable. And we see he still has magic so it couldn't have been absorbed.
I never said it was empty. Just that there are some parts where they may not be souls, which we cannot determine because these events do not occur on screen.

I won't reply to the Castor and Pollux stuff unless there are new arguments brought up; We literally see Kratos die when exposed to their magic, so it is reasonable to assume that he's just stopping them from using their magic in the first place rather than "adapting". And, before you ask, we do accept fail states in video games as canon; Whether or not a character can die to something in a video game is how a lot of feats and anti-feats are measured, even if technically those deaths aren't "canon".
 
Zeus has reactive evolution and resistance negation for supposedly negating Kratos' resistance to the waters of the river Styx. The context is here; Kratos is struck by a bolt of lightning, falls into the Styx, and the souls within drain his health, magic, and experience. The basis for this is that Kratos resisted these effects prior to God of War 3 (to clarify, this means the resistance to the river's effects granted via the Soul of Hades are not relevant to this discussion), and his inability to do so after Zeus blasts him is attributable to some sort of innate ability to remove resistances. What's more, the fact that his lightning bolts failed to do this in previous games

The resistance negation half is easy to disprove. For starters, if this is indeed the case, Kratos wouldn't just have his powers absorbed - He'd die outright, which clearly does not happen. The Styx kills whatever enters its waters, which Kratos can resist, so if Zeus negated that resistance... well, you can probably imagine what would happen.

So, what about the souls of Hades? Well, the problem is written into the name. The souls of Hades and the Styx are not one and the same; The souls live there, and can pose a threat to those immersed in its waters, but they are not always a threat. We see this to some extent in GoW3, where Kratos can traverse small sections of the Styx without getting his powers absorbed. While it's implied he endured the Styx in Chains of Olympus, we don't actually see this event occur, and thus cannot determine if he was attacked by these wayward souls, let alone resisted their absorption. There's no other scene which we can use to safely claim that so much as dipping your toes in the water drains your power; It is something only attributable to an entity living in the river, and much like a shark in an ocean, they're not always going to hunt down and kill any unfortunate swimmers.

Kratos has dealt with similar effects before, but he also fails to demonstrate any sort of resistance there, either. The justification for Kratos resisting this sort of absorption also cites this comic panel, where Kratos fights off the arms of Hades, but you can probably notice a major issue - The arms aren't actually grabbing Kratos (the trigger for their absorption), but are being torn apart by him. Much like the Priest of Fate "feat", Kratos is not resisting any sort of hax here, but merely keeping a dangerous enemy at bay. The arms' effects also take time to activate, giving Kratos ample time to fight back. When Kratos is grappled by the arms, he needs to be brought back to life by Gaia, is shown breaking free of their grip, and then straight up leaving; Again, not really a resistance in any sense of the word (especially since half of this feat is accomplished via outside help). The arms take time to trigger their effects, further supporting the idea that he just breaks their grip before they can do lasting harm.

In conclusion, Zeus wouldn't need to negate Kratos' resistance to absorption, because it wasn't a resistance he ever had in the first place. Naturally, Kratos' resistances from battling the arms of Hades would need to be removed as well.

So what about reactive evolution? That is founded solely on the basis that Zeus gained resistance negation on a whim, which... I mean, the last few paragraphs were dedicated to explaining why he didn't actually do that, so the foundation of reactive evolution being bunk means reactive evo has to go.

So, to recap:
  • Kratos has never been shown to resist the effects of the souls of Hades or the arms of Hades, meaning Zeus would not require any sort of resistance negation. This would also remove resistance to soul manipulation from Kratos' demigod key, as that is based on him resisting the souls/arms of Hades.
  • If Kratos truly had his resistance negated, the waters of the Styx would have killed him.
  • Because Zeus' resistance negation is bunk, his reactive evolution also ought to be removed.
Agreed. The theory has some clear logical errors outlined above, and it's based on a series of inferences instead of any direct evidence. Moreover, it's clear that the water of the Styx itself does not have these effects, but rather the souls themselves.

Wait, What About the Furies?

If I'm seriously proposing that demigod Kratos lose his resistance to soul manipulation (which I am), then I also need to tackle the other half of that justification. The first issue is that, as discussed previously, Kratos is affected by the Furies. They drive him to the brink of insanity, which indicates that he really did not handle their torture very well. That aside, let's look at how he supposedly resists their torture; Megaera slaps Kratos, he dodges her attacks, and then breaks his chains and tackles her. She doesn't even get to torture him! Much like the Priest of Fate (again), Kratos is merely preventing something from affecting him in the first place, which is not a resistance. And when he is exposed to the Furies' torture, the manual outright clarifies that he was affected by their hax. Finally, it's worth noting that breaking someone in "body, mind, and soul" is a common turn of phrase that doesn't really indicate literally affecting the soul.
Agreed, there are more logical errors and the justification is exceedingly poor in the first place, given the clear flowery nature of the phrasing with relation to being tortured.


Reactive Evolution [Ragnarok Kratos]

This stems from Kratos adapting to and resisting Heimdall’s attempts to read his mind. This is, devoid of context, fine. The problem is that in this fight, Kratos wields the Draupnir spear, a weapon forged specifically to counter Heimdall's abilities by overloading his senses. Obviously, trying to read someone's mind whilst you're experiencing information overload is nigh-impossible, which is what gives Kratos the opportunity to bypass Heimdall's foresight and pummel him. This also leads into a secondary problem of how, if Kratos can just resist/adapt Heimdall's hax by himself, then him needing the Draupnir spear at all makes 0 sense. Given that part of Kratos' resistance to telepathy is contingent on this feat, that would also need to be removed.
Agreed. It's clearly stated that the plan is to "overpopulate his senses" with the spear.

Reactive Evolution & Power Nullification [Demigod Kratos]

Time to cover Castor and Pollux again (everybody's favorite!). The basis here is quite simple: The duo have a magic amulet that can mess with time in a variety of ways. Throughout the fight, Kratos is shown overpowering their attempts to use the amulet's power against them. It is concluded, then, that Kratos was gradually developing a resistance over the course of the battle, as he was stated to be affected by it at the very start (but could later overpower it without issue). He is also assumed to be able to nullify its powers for more or less the same reason, as Castor and Pollux very briefly lose control of the amulet when Kratos beats them up.

Starting simply, these abilities contradict each other. If Kratos nullified the amulet's power, then he doesn't need to resist anything (because anything he'd need to "resist" has already been nullified). If Kratos adapted to the amulet's hax, then he both didn't nullify it (as the amulet can obviously still use its hax against him, even if he resists it) and wouldn't need to. If one of these abilities is valid, then the other isn't. You can't have your reactive evolution and power nullification it too, as the saying goes.

Of course, the individual abilities themselves are also bad. For power nullification, the extent to which we see Kratos "nullify" their powers is that the green glow surrounding their weapons dissipates for a quarter of a second after every hit. It's important to note that Castor and Pollux do require some degree of skill and focus to use the amulet; According to WoG, the amulet is something you can get better and better at using, and the twins have limits on their usage of it. That is to say, being slapped around by the world's angriest man would be one hell of a distraction, and naturally make it difficult to maintain the focus necessary to use the amulet. Its effects aren't passive, and it's just like any other activated item in that its use can be prevented if you interrupt the user; That isn't power null at all.

Reactive evolution is also predicated on this scene, in which Castor and Pollux move in for the kill and Kratos parries them. This would be fine, if Kratos was frozen in time and then spontaneously broke out. But you can literally see him tracking their movements in first person, even swaying back and forth in doing so. He is explicitly capable of movement, so him moving isn't really indicative of any sudden explosive growth that negs time stop or whatever. Him "overpowering" the amulet is also bad; He is, yet again, simply pushing them away before they can use the full extent of the amulet's power against him. They never use it to its fullest extent against him, because he doesn't let them; If Kratos fails to push them away, he outright dies.

This was a lengthy thread, so allow me to recap what would change should everything pass:
Agreed, the scene is quite clear that the amulet is a significant danger to Kratos and the entire point of the fight is to outmaneuver them so they don't get a chance to hit Kratos with it. He doesn't have any ability to nullify their power, he merely hits them before they really get a chance to use it. I would again liken this to Rogue in X-Men. Avoiding her touching you or not getting touched long enough to fully die doesn't constitute resistance, nullification, or reactive evolution. Especially if you will still just straight up die if she makes contact for long enough.
 
This example is very confusing. In this gif, it looks more like the arms are just fighting on Kratos' behalf, not that he is resisting their effects.

Out of context. He's only affected after his defeat second at their hands. Before that he was fine, and he still wasn't as insane as other prisoners.

The Furies torturing someone's soul is literal as said by the developers. And most of it is not even from WoG, it's from how the Furies manipulate someone's mind (a part of the soul in God of war) and their ability to use Haden energy.
He wasn't as insane as that prisoner who was the very first person the Furies took and have been torturing, that's normal given he hasn't been tortured by them as long. I don't know what is meant to be evidence in the WoG. In any case there's no good evidence of them actually using soul manip on Kratos nor of him resisting it.

Mimir doesn't question what options they have because Draupnir isn't working. Draupnir worked and successfully stunned Heimdall, but he still dodged the flurry that followed. You have to build up to successful melee hits with more stuns. See here

Now that Heimdall has caught on to Kratos' plan, you’ll want to create a line of Spears on the ground, luring Heimdall over them, where you can then detonate them, causing him to become stunned. Then, while Heimdall is stunned, rush toward him and press R3 when prompted to enter a short cutscene.

Still unable to touch Heimdall, you’ll need to repeat these steps until you have filled his stun meter to full, where Kratos will finally break through his guard.


The spear doesn't just completely deactivate Heimdall's abilities, but they wear him down throughout the fight. The point is that it's wrong to attribute this to Kratos "evolving" throughout the fight. Mimir said "what do we do now" because the first flurry of blows misses, and Kratos immediately responds "the spear remains our best chance."


Expect they don't. Kratos's power nullification comes from him causing the Twins to return to their old age, while his resistance is him not getting affected by the ability later on. This is a misunderstanding of the page.
This happens because he inflicts physical damage to them. Not because of a special ability.


Again, it comes from negating the effects it had on themselves. Regardless, it's made extremely clear that the twins used the Amulet abilities to it's fullest extent in the fight, and these limits they had were holding back limits.
You misread your first scan. He says they used it to the "fullest extent that they were capable of" meaning their ability to use it is limited by their inexperience.
 
This example is very confusing. In this gif, it looks more like the arms are just fighting on Kratos' behalf, not that he is resisting their effects.
To clarify Pepsi's point here - I argued that Kratos could simply break free of the arms without having his magic drained, because in the novelization, their effects are shown to take time to activate. Pepsi responded with that gif to prove that the absorption occurs instantly (though the fact that they don't drain magic is notable to me).
He wasn't as insane as that prisoner who was the very first person the Furies took and have been torturing, that's normal given he hasn't been tortured by them as long. I don't know what is meant to be evidence in the WoG. In any case there's no good evidence of them actually using soul manip on Kratos nor of him resisting it.
This is an excellent point, actually; Of course Kratos wouldn't be driven to the same depths of insanity when he hasn't been tortured for nearly as long.
 
To clarify Pepsi's point here - I argued that Kratos could simply break free of the arms without having his magic drained, because in the novelization, their effects are shown to take time to activate. Pepsi responded with that gif to prove that the absorption occurs instantly (though the fact that they don't drain magic is notable to me).
Okay. I guess I'm not seeing what is supposed to be a visual indicator of absorption. It mostly looks like they're just hitting the enemies around Kratos and killing them with physical damage.
 
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