The lower border of tier 9-B

[Antvasima]

Hello.

It has been suggested that the current lower border energy required for tier 9-B is currently set considerably too low in relation to what is actually required to cave in a wall.

Helpful input would be very appreciated, especially from DontTalkDT and our calc group members.

NOTE: STAFF ONLY

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Just some additional information, so calc group members won't have to check the original thread:

According to Soldier Blue, energy to cave in a typical wall should be in the range of hundreds of Kilojoules to a few Megajoules. Fragmentation of a US standard cinder block (just one cinder block) is double digit Kilojoules. He also claims at least one current calc group member was calling for such a revision a while back on some blog.

Composite Human is also Wall level btw.

This would probably wait, since the Tier 4 revisions are still there. Quite a number of profiles would be affected, I think. I would appreciate if some calc group member can calc the energy required to bust a typical wall.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

I will inform the others

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the help.

 

[Ugarik]

Just to remind you for each gram of TNT exploded, 4184 joules of energy are released. 4184 is also High End to Low End ratio of 9-B.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

If the lower border gets raised, Composite Human would be downgraded back to Wall level, which seems far more reasonable.

 

[Ugarik]

The higher border of tier 9-B is 2.092*10^7 jouls. 2.092*10^7/4184=5000. That's probably why we 5 kilojouls as lower border

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

So? Incorrecy values are incorrect.

 

[Antvasima]

@S75DF

I think that you mean downgraded back to Street level.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Yes. My bad.

 

[Antvasima]

No problem.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Using a standard fragmentation of 8 j/cc, to literally fragmentate just 1 m^3 of a wall would be 80 kilotons.

 

[CinCameron20]

^ I think you meant Kilojoules, and yeah, that's way above what we currently have for the low end. I actually got 8000 Kilojoules for fragmenting just 1m^3 of stone. That's almost .002 Tons of Tnt, which is nearly Wall+.

Regardless, 5 kilojoules for the low end does seem very VERY low for Wall level. That's not even close to enough to send a crack up a stone wall. Something of that level would probably require a minimum of 20 times more energy, maybe far more.

 

[Soldier_Blue]

Perhaps the lower limit should be set to whatever it takes to fragment a cinder block? A well placed .50 BMG round can shatter a cinder block and go clean through a wall. Someone with that kind if punching power would likely be able to punch at least fist sized holes in a solid brick wall.

^ I won't insist on this. Just putting it out there as a suggestion.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that we only mean a regular thin inside house wall between rooms in an apartment for the low end.

 

[Soldier_Blue]

Is there a calc'ed value for tearing one of those down (in one attack)?

 

[Antvasima]

I don't know, but I do not have any such calculations readily available in any case, so help would be appreciated.

 

[Kepekley23]

I would have to look at the calculated values to give input here.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I couldn't find a proper calculation for this in Kavpeny's old blog that revised the attack potency scale, so it is possible that it was not done properly:

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Kavpeny/New_Attack_Potency_Chart

 

[Blahblah9755]

I calculated busting what I think would be a pretty normal sized wooden wall at 75kJ. Should I put it in a blog?

 

[Jobbo]

You don't have to actually destroy the material the wall's made of since they're generally held together by much weaker materials, right?

 

[Antvasima]

@Blahblah

That would be appreciated, yes.

 

[Blahblah9755]

A.right, here you go: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Blahblah9755/Breaking_a_Wooden_Wall

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you. You can ask here for evaluations:

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/1403007

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Technically we could just find an average wall size and take the energy requirement to violently shatter one row of cinderblocks in that wall. Destroying one row of the wall's makeup should be sufficient to bring it down.

Or if we want an outright wall-shatter, we could calculate what is needed to frag an entire cinderblock wall.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Assaltwaffle evaluated Blahblah9755's blog and calculated the baseline to 12 kilojoules.

 

[Jobbo]

12 KJ assuming the values provided. He also stated that 3x4m is pretty big, which I'm inclined to agree with. For a smaller wall the current 5 KJ value should be fine.

I think it would be helpful to first define what constitutes breaking a wall. I think generally people imagine busting a hole through one rather than completely obliterating one.

 

[CinCameron20]

It might sound strange saying this, but note how all of the tiers of 9-B or higher describe being capable of "destroying" something completely. I personally don't see how 5 KJ would result in wall level when that's only putting a small hole in a wooden wall when the Tiering System clearly describes it as destroying a wall.

12 KJ is better imo, especially since it is using the weakest wood according to Assault.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

5 KJ is impossible to bust a wall. The tiering system describes it as destroying a wall, yes, CinCameron20 is right.

5 KJ can only destroy 0.0625 m^3 of a wall, using a standard fragmentation value of 8 j/cc.

 

[Kepekley23]

Which wall are you talking about? Cinder block?

 

[CinCameron20]

@Kepek - seems he is using a stone wall given the 8j/cc he noted.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

8 j/cc is a standard fragmentation value.

That probably fits for a stone wall, yes.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

I think standards for walls are bricks and cinderblocks, amirite? Does anyone know the fragmentation values?

 

[Assaltwaffle]

I think standards for walls are bricks and cinderblocks, amirite? Does anyone know the fragmentation values?

Concrete has a 6 j/cc frag value. Also a cinderblock is mostly hollow; it isn't just a chunk of concrete.

 

[Blahblah9755]

I responded to Assault's comment.

 

[Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer]

Not a calc member, but I'm interested in seeing where this thread goes.

Personally I don't know about calcing in the way our staff does it, but I do agree there is ambiguity in how we defind caving in a wall.

Should breaking a wall be physically penetrating it? Surface, inch deep, a foot, entirely to the other side? What if the object/wall is thick and very dense and the calc that would be needed to do so reach a higher tier? What about destroying the structural integrity of the wall?

I'd like it to be allot more clear.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

@Assaltwaffle Soldier Blue claims to destroy just 1 cinderblock is double digit kilojoule.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

@Assaltwaffle Soldier Blue claims to destroy just 1 cinderblock is double digit kilojoule.

Umm. I can get a cinderblock and throw it to the ground and have it shatter right now.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

┬»\_(Òâä)_/┬» That's just what he said.

 

[ThePerpetual]

So, technically, 5000 Joules should, by the standards of how we usually calculate feats, be capable of fragmenting (5000/8 =) 625 cubic centimeters of solid stone. To put this in perspective, that would be equivalent to cracking a hole, roughly a little over 4 inches tall and wide, into and through a 2 inch thick wall... yet, clearly, in real life this is not quite what happens.

I'm not a physics expert, or anything of the sort, but I know about the existence of Inelastic Collisions and the Law of Conservation of Energy. I also know sections of solid stone tend to not fragment when shot by stray bullets, despite theoretically doing so on paper (some higher-powered bullets approach our current threshold for "Wall level")... we had ought to take that into account when considering "Wall" level, and how we intend for Wall level to actually function in practice.

My recommendation for now, I suppose? Well, here's the section for Muzzle Velocity on Wikipedia... "heavy" weapons, like the .50 BMG and 14.5 x 114 mm, which by our current standards are well above the baseline for Wall level... the .50 BMG, while still often used against other personnel, is one of the lightest weapons I could find with kinetic energy that classified it as a "Anti-Materiel" rifle, i.e. designed to break solid objects. If we were to use it's 15,037 Joules (rounded to 15000 for simplicity's sake) for our low-end, it would probably line up at least to some degree with how people tend to imagine Wall level without being too dramatic a shift (only thrice the value we currently use.)

(Note: This would also allow an absolute Peak Human, such as Bren Foster, to garner Street level+, rather than a generic Street level, to distinguish between Peak Human and a "normal" Exceptional Human if this appeals to anyone.)

I guess if that's still too low, there's the 14.5 x 114 mm, which, as an explicit Anti-Tank weapon designed for use against tanks (metal-walled war machines) yields 32000 Joules or so with its shots. Something in the realm of 30000 - 32000 Joules will surely suffice. I think I personally recommend the 15000 Joules value over this, though.

The unfortunate side effect, of course, of this is that one might on occasion find "wall-busting" feats that technically don't qualify for Wall level by our site's conventional standards... either the calculation may have to account for real-world laws of Physics, or such (very rare) occasions are a necessary cost of a more accurate Attack Potency chart.

On a side note? I personally recommend improving the low-end for Street level, as well... there are many documented cases of athletes in sports yielding over 200 Joules of energy (especially in sports like hockey), and as we have it now a large contingent of "average" athletes would be Athlete level+, rather than standard Athlete level... perhaps the low-end threshold of Street level should be adjusted to 300 Joules?

Again, I'm not a Physics expert of any kind, just offering suggestions based on what I can find on the web.