"The Last" Hinata's AP (Downgrade) #3254616

[Nierre]

I hate how many CRTs have been made for this, so hopefully this is the final one... this also took me way longer than I expected it to have... (with how many crts there are about this topic, there should be a discussion rule about this )

In this CRT, many of us discussed the current AP (Dura, and SS) of The Last Hinata. The OP didn't actually address what she should possibly be downgraded to, and that CRT was also kinda disorganized so we decided to just move it here.

Essentially, I believe that Hinata's AP should be downgraded to Unknown, following The Last Base Naruto's AP, because she was unable to destroy The Tenseigan Vessel and needed support from Base Naruto (who is currently rated as Unknown) to destroy it, and she does not scale to BSM Naruto's AP due to the reasons spelled out below:

Counterpoints:

"But Hinata was weakened by the orb Toneri had placed into her because it had absorbed her chakra, so she obviously wouldn't be as strong as she would've been if she was at her peak strength"

Hinata is explicitly stated to resist absorption from the Tenseigan's absorption ability BECAUSE of Hamura's Chakra. For starters, the orb that went inside of Hinata couldn't have absorbed her chakra, because she has Hamura's Chakra. All the orb did was control her so that she wouldn't betray Toneri again. But secondly, when Naruto took out the orb from Hinata's body, his chakra wasn't absorbed despite grabbing it, meaning that it didn't weaken/absorb Hinata's chakra at all. Yes, she did briefly faint, but she was still completely fine after and showed 0 signs of fatigue or weakness throughout the film. She likely fainted due to Naruto entering her body (pause) to extract the orb, not because the orb made her weak. The orb Toneri used against Naruto were explicitly used to absorb his chakra and knock him out of commission so he would get out of Toneri's way. The first time was to keep him away from himself and Hinata so they can continue the ritual, and the second time was to use his chakra to move the moon, absorbing his chakra would keep him from moving and fighting back. So the orb has multiple different functions and uses and they don't all absorb chakra.

"If Hinata wasn't strong enough to destroy the Tenseigan, then why did Toneri send guards her way?"

That's because he was suspicious about her true intentions. After Toneri had put Hinata to sleep, he wanted to learn more about Hinata and looked into her memories using his orb, and in the orb he saw Naruto. After Hinata awakens, Toneri then walks her through the castle and continues to talk about his goal. Hinata questions him even more, looking for clues, as she wants to free her sister who's being held captive by Toneri, and save the Earth as he plans on destroying it by sending the moon into the Earth. She then asks him a vital question that would help her find where the Tenseigan was being held, to which Toneri says he won't tell her and then remembers the memories he saw in Hinata. Then he asks her to knit a scarf for him to test her loyalty, as he saw her knitting one for Naruto, which she reluctantly obliges. Later they both share a meal together. Toneri tries to have her talk about herself just so they can get closer, but Hinata changes the subject and tells him to stop what he's doing and try to negotiate with the Shinobi of the Earth. Toneri then gets pissed and tells her not to mention that subject again. Then a castle floats by and Hinata is able to confirm that's where the Tenseigan is. And finally, Hinata and Toneri go to the castle to "pay homage" to Hamura himself, but she obviously is undercover and in reality is looking for the Tenseigan. While they're there, she slips up and asks if the real Tenseigan is in the castle, and that's when Toneri looks at her suspiciously and she is informed that only people in exalted positions are allowed to see the real Tenseigan. And he promises her she'll see it after they're married.

I say all this to say, Toneri was always suspicious of Hinata which is why he had guards watch over her, that's why when she found the real Tenseigan's location, the guards (and Toneri) jumped her.

"Hinata was able to refill Naruto's BSM chakra reserves after Toneri had used his orb to absorb his chakra. Because of this Hinata's chakra quantity and potency should translate to her AP"

Now this one I originally agreed with, but one thing to remember is that with Hamura's chakra, Hinata can nullify and resist the Tenseigan's absorption as I mentioned before. While I can understand why others would assume that Hinata restored Naruto's chakra, the fact that Hinata couldn't destroy the Tenseigan as I mentioned in my argument, means that her chakra quantity and or potency isn't enough to restore such massive chakra like BSM Naruto. Added on to the fact that I proved that Hinata WASN'T weakened by Toneri only proves that Hinata isn't actually stronger than Base Naruto but in fact weaker, so there's no way she could've restored BSM Naruto's chakra.

Therefore Hinata's AP should scale to Unknown.


We can talk about why she would or why she wouldn't here.

---

Agree: @Kachon123, @M3X_2.0, @SeiyaRyuSeiKen, @Greatsage13th, @LordTracer (agreed with my points), @KingTempest (Scale Hinata's AP to her War arc AP), @UchihaSlayer96 (Fine with At least War Arc AP), @Deagonx (Fine with At least War Arc AP), @Testarossa002, @Lonkitt

Disagree: @Tdjwo, @Tatsumi504, @Stryker861

Neutral: @Trihexa102

 

[Kachon123]

Yeah, I agree.

 

[Nierre]

I'll wait before I call in staff so they can also see what the opposition may have to say.

But I'm busy throughout the week (Monday-Friday) so I can only be really active here on the weekends

 

[Tdjwo]

Well, as you know, I disagree with this entirely. I would just copy-paste my unaddressed points from the old thread again since I'm a little busy currently. This is really tiring.

Did Hinata actually receive Hamura's chakra amp, or was it simply just her bloodline as a Hyuga member being referenced under Hamura?

In The Last: Naruto The Movie's dub and sub, Hinata used the word "Hamura's bloodline" and "Hamura's chakra" at two different times, implying that they both meant two different things, which is supported by the fact that she actually performed different things with the words she described them.
When she used the word "Hamura's bloodline," she was explaining to Naruto how not just anyone could touch the Tenseigan orb because it had a curse sealed on it. Only someone with Hamura's bloodline could touch it.
On the other hand, when she used the word "Hamura's chakra," she had just finished replenishing Naruto's chakra, which surprised Toneri, which in turn made him ask her how and why she was able to do that, then she replied, It's because...Hamura's chakra flows within me too."
If you paid close attention to the movie, you would realize that Toneri knew Hinata was immune to the Tenseigan because she had the bloodline limit to destroy the Tenseigan without getting cursed by the jutsu which is why he had his puppet guards keep a close watch on her so that she wouldn't make any move. But what Toneri didn't know was that Hinata had met Hamura, who bestowed his chakra onto her. That is why he was surprised and baffled as to how and why Hinata was able to refill Naruto's chakra reserves. Toneri wasn't surprised that Hinata could stop the Tenseigan from extracting Naruto's chakra reserves. He already knew she could do that when the Tenseigan energy vessel got destroyed. Instead, Toneri was surprised that Hinata somehow had enough chakra to replenish Naruto's reserves, which he never knew she could do.
What does this imply?
This implies that her failure to destroy the Tenseigan by herself at that moment she claimed she had the bloodline limit to touch the Tenseigan doesn't downscale her later feat of replenishing Naruto's entire reserves when she stated she had the chakra of Hamura. She used both words at two different times, for two different purposes.
This also implies that she does indeed have the bloodline limit of Hamura as a Hyuga clan member, while at the same time, she obtained the chakra of Hamura during her encounter with Hamura.
Now that we've got that out of the way let's move to the next question.

Was Naruto's chakra really low enough for us to consider Hinata replenishing him as something significant?

When Toneri was absorbing BSM Naruto's chakra, Naruto made a statement that Toneri was absorbing all of his chakra. A few seconds later, the Tenseigan stopped absorbing Naruto's chakra, and we see Naruto kneel on the ground, shaking, trembling and visibly weakened in base form. This means the Tenseigan had successfully absorbed all of SM Naruto + half Kurama's chakra till the point he had to kneel on the ground panting really hard. This behaviour is something that Naruto had done before in the war arc. In the war arc, he started panting hard which Madara noticed and claimed that he had reached his limit because Naruto had expended all his chakra reserves due to him carrying the entire shinobi alliance with his kyuubi chakra. The way Naruto knelt and acted was completely identical to how Naruto acted in The Last. To better support my argument, Sakura specifically stated that it was time for Naruto to recover as he still stayed in that same position, visibly exhausted as everyone rallied round to protect Naruto has he had run out of chakra. Moments later, we see Kurama amassing chakra in that position where he joins his palm together which indicates that Kurama was indeed empty on chakra thus needing quite some time to build more chakra as Minato takes over in place of Naruto. And we know it takes quite some time for Kurama to mould chakra for Naruto to re-enter his KCM mode which is why Yang Kurama asked Yin Kurama to lend him some chakra as it was taking too long for him to fully replenish Naruto on time.
All these proves that Naruto in The Last was completely out of chakra both in his base form, and with Kurama's chakra supply based on similar incidents that happened in the war arc. He acted even worse in The last. He acted more exhausted in base form than he did in the war arc. So for Hinata to completely replenish him and take him back to Bijuu Sage Mode(not just KCM2), it shows how significant her chakra supply was to Naruto.

Momoshiki also absorbed Naruto's chakra, and he reacted to the pain similarly as he did in The Last. He also couldn't free himself from the Shinju tree. Yet he could still jump back into SPSM the moment the Kages freed him from the Shinju tree. Doesn't this prove that Naruto doesn't necessarily need to be empty on chakra to react to his chakra being absorbed in pain and agony?

Shadowbokunohero made this statement as a counter to Toneri absorbing all of Naruto's chakra based on how exhausted and gassed out Naruto was. But this didn't really prove anything. Instead, it created an unnecessary circular argument.

It's quite illogical to compare Momoshiki's absorption to Toneri's for multiple reasons.

• Toneri only needed to absorb Bijuu Sage Mode Naruto's chakra(half Kurama) along with the six paths chakra inside him because the other half of Kurama(Yin Kurama) was busy fighting Hamura's Golem. In contrast, Momoshiki needed to absorb Naruto's entire chakra reserves, including full Kurama. In order words, Momoshiki needed to absorb more chakra from Naruto which would take more time than Toneri did since he only had to absorb half Kurama's chakra.
• Naruto was already physically exhausted from absorbing Momoshiki's entire bijuudama in the village. That was the reason Momoshiki and Kinshiki were able to capture Naruto in the first place. And immediately they brought him to that dimension, Momoshiki proceeded to start absorbing his chakra which would obviously make Naruto suffer even more from physical strain. Meanwhile, against Toneri, Naruto wasn't physically exhausted, nor was he chakra exhausted prior to Toneri absorbing his entire chakra. He was completely fine. But after Toneri completely absorbs his chakra, we see him on the ground struggling to keep himself together.
• Toneri's absorption is way faster and more powerful than Momoshiki's absorption. Not only did Toneri absorb base Naruto's chakra+sage mode chakra+half Kurama chakra under seconds compared to Momoshiki, who's been absorbing half Kurama's chakra for quite a long while, but Toneri's absorption power was ridiculously too powerful that it started absorbing the sun's energy passively which is a level of absorption power Momoshiki's rinnegan never showed unless you try using the novel statements where it's stated that he absorbed a star. But we don't accept statements from the novel for obvious reasons.
• Lastly, it's very obvious that Naruto could fight Momoshiki despite getting his chakra absorbed only because Momoshiki failed to absorb all of his chakra. Naruto still had 50% Kurama intact along with his six paths chakra, unlike in The Last where Toneri absorbed all the chakra Naruto had at that moment.

With all these facts, it's very clear that you can't use Momoshiki's situation/scenario to dismiss Toneri absorbing all of Naruto's chakra.

Even if Hinata refilled all of BSM Naruto's chakra, how does that boost her AP to Low 5B, possibly 5B?

It's accepted on this wiki that Chakra amount+Potency/control=AP. I kindly advise you all to read it. And in this link, it's directly referenced how Hinata's air palm increased her AP based on Kurama's chakra amp

We know how much weaker Hinata's regular air palms are compared to how it was when it got amped by Kurama's chakra. This indicates a direct correlation as to how an increase in chakra reserves as well as its potency and control could drastically increase the AP of a character, especially in Hinata's case as shown.
So for her to be capable of replenishing BSM Naruto's entire reserves and taking him back to BSM mode means her chakra amount+Potency=AP and thus would be scaled to BSM Naruto, who is Low 5B, possibly 5B in AP. Obviously, this shouldn't mean that she's capable of contending with BSM Naruto in combat because she lacks the speed, versatility, and some other things that Naruto has. But she does have the AP and durability (2) of BSM Naruto.

And moreover, Hinata is not the only Naruto character on this website that is scaled to a certain tier based on chakra+potency=AP. Hashirama is also scaled using the same method.

Attack Potency: Large Mountain level+ (As an Edo Tensei, he stated that he had more chakra than both Naruto and 50% Kurama combined[14].

Miscellaneous

• Kishimoto worked on the movie, changed and added some of the contents in the movie's script that never made it to the novel(which he had no involvement in). It was stated that Kishimoto made the editors edit the movie's original script so many times that they got pissed at him.
• This is proven as the entire part of the movie where Toneri absorbed Naruto's chakra with the green orb, and when Hinata touched and gave Naruto her chakra never happened in the novel. Instead, it jumped from Naruto, defeating Toneri with a punch, to Toneri absorbing energy from the sun. That means Kishimoto added this entire part in the movie as opposed to what the original scriptwriter in the novel did.
• And since the movie had Kishimoto's direct supervision over the plot as well as his edits in contrast to the novel, whatever happens in the movie that is quite different from the novel, or that wasn't included in the novel doesn't make it insignificant. In fact, it proves that the movie holds more of a greater canonicity than the novel since Kishimoto personally added new ideas in it.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Planet level Hinata is the clearest example of powerscaling brainrot.

I obviously agree, she isn't anywhere near this level and people should understand this rather than "she has feats she scales" type of mentality.

 

[Tdjwo]

Planet level Hinata is the clearest example of powerscaling brainrot.

I obviously agree, she isn't anywhere near this level and people should understand this rather than "she has feats she scales" type of mentality.

Following the standards of how the chakra system works on this site, Low 5B, possibly 5B is pretty undeniable based on what she did in the last.

 

[Nierre]

That said, these are all my arguments supporting The Last Hinata remaining in tier Low 5B, possibly 5B. Please, if anyone wants to reply, please don't act delusional like the OP who hurled only insults at me without using proper logic to even address his or my points due to his lack of proper reading comprehension. And please, do not derail. Thank you.

...? Unless you're referring to the OP from the other thread, I don't remember hurling insults at you. If I did then sorry


Also if you're not going to take a look at my reasonings at the OP, I'd rather you just come when you're free instead of just reposting your old argument, because you don't know if I've countered it or not. I don't plan on closing this that soon, since i'll be busy during the week, so you have time.

I'll count your vote regardless

 

[M3X_2.0]

powerscaling brainrot

 

[Tdjwo]

...? Unless you're referring to the OP from the other thread, I don't remember hurling insults at you. If I did then sorry

Oh no. I was referring to the OP from the other thread. This is a copy/paste of my older comment that wasn't adressed.

Also if you're not going to take a look at my reasonings at the OP, I'd rather you just come when you're free instead of just reposting your old argument, because you don't know if I've countered it or not. I don't plan on closing this that soon, since i'll be busy during the week, so you have time.

I'm quite busy right now. That's why I cant read the entire post nor remake new counterarguments. If this thread could be closed till later, then that would be great.

I'll count your vote regardless

Np.

 

[Nierre]

Oh no. I was referring to the OP from the other thread. This is a copy/paste of my older comment that wasn't adressed.

Gotcha.

I'm quite busy right now. That's why I cant read the entire post nor remake new counterarguments. If this thread could be closed till later, then that would be great.

Yeah, take your time. It'll be open for at least a week so you can give your thoughts any time you can

 

[Arkenis]

Yeah so as I kinda brought up before,

Toneri locked up Hinata cuz of Hamura's power or because he didn't trust her? What I wanna ask is if it is because of Hamura's power, does Toneri think his guards are enough to stop Hinata? Would this now imply the guards are now 5-B? I honestly don't remember the movie in detail but my point is that if Toneri genuinely thought Hinata was a threat then wouldn't he guarding her be the logical solution to prevent her from destroying it?

Now onto the green orbs, are these green orbs just great enough to suppress power on a 5-B level? What are its other feats? How much time passed from her being effected by the green orbs to her trying to attack the tenseigan and failing?

And this is just my two cents but the green orbs seemed to have stopped affected her when she tried attacking the Tenseigan, that purple dragon head ability she does iirc requires good chakra control so how could she do it yet somehow be suppressed by them?

 

[Stryker861]

Following

 

[Nierre]

Toneri locked up Hinata cuz of Hamura's power or because he didn't trust her? What I wanna ask is if it is because of Hamura's power, does Toneri think his guards are enough to stop Hinata? Would this now imply the guards are now 5-B? I honestly don't remember the movie in detail but my point is that if Toneri genuinely thought Hinata was a threat then wouldn't he guarding her be the logical solution to prevent her from destroying it?

It's because he was suspicious of her. I spilled it out in the OP for you to see. He sent guards because he knew she'd go after the Tenseigan. The guards are really weak but the head guard that Hinata did fight would theoretically be scaled to Unknown, because that guard also tussled with Base Naruto who also is Unknown.

Now onto the green orbs, are these green orbs just great enough to suppress power on a 5-B level? What are its other feats?

wdym suppress power? It absorbs chakra, render people unconscious, and control people. It can absorb people's chakra "on a 5-B level" if that's what you mean because it absorbed BSM Naruto's chakra, but like I mentioned in the OP, Toneri never absorbed Hinata's chakra so that's a completely different scenario.

How much time passed from her being effected by the green orbs to her trying to attack the tenseigan and failing?

Unknown, but it shouldn't have been long at all since they ran directly to the Tenseigan after Naruto freed Hinata from Toneri's control.

And this is just my two cents but the green orbs seemed to have stopped affected her when she tried attacking the Tenseigan, that purple dragon head ability she does iirc requires good chakra control so how could she do it yet somehow be suppressed by them?

That's also a good point. But my main point is that the orb didnt actually weaken her, because all Toneri did was put the orb in her to control her. Toneri never expressed any intent to absorb her chakra or weaken her but he explicitly expressed the intent to control her (in which he did right after)

 

[Arkenis]

I spilled it out in the OP for you to see.

Didnt read

 

[Nierre]

Didnt read

mood.

 

[Trihexa102]

Neutral for now

 

[Tatsumi504]

Hinata is explicitly stated to resist absorption from the Tenseigan's absorption ability BECAUSE of Hamura's Chakra. For starters, the orb that went inside of Hinata couldn't have absorbed her chakra, because she has Hamura's Chakra. All the orb did was control her so that she wouldn't betray Toneri again. But secondly, when Naruto took out the orb from Hinata's body, his chakra wasn't absorbed despite grabbing it, meaning that it didn't weaken/absorb Hinata's chakra at all. Yes, she did briefly faint, but she was still completely fine after and showed 0 signs of fatigue or weakness throughout the film. She likely fainted due to Naruto entering her body (pause) to extract the orb, not because the orb made her weak. The orb Toneri used against Naruto were explicitly used to absorb his chakra and knock him out of commission so he would get out of Toneri's way. The first time was to keep him away from himself and Hinata so they can continue the ritual, and the second time was to use his chakra to move the moon, absorbing his chakra would keep him from moving and fighting back. So the orb has multiple different functions and uses and they don't all absorb chakra.

Hamura's chakra doesn't resist the absorption, only those with hamura's blood-meaning the hyuga-are unaffected by the tenseigan's absorption.
You've already identified that the orb has different functions. One absorbed Naruto's chakra, the other controlled hinata so, did you purposely leave out the one at the beginning of the movie that messed with her chakra to the extent she couldn't walk on walls anymore or even support herself? The orbs having different functions is inconsequential to the effect that all have shown which is weakening the individual it's used on. It's not even stated it weakens them by absorbing their chakra, it weakens them by messing with their chakra control, don't know how you came to that conclusion.

I say all this to say, Toneri was always suspicious of Hinata which is why he had guards watch over her, that's why when she found the real Tenseigan's location, the guards (and Toneri) jumped her.

Except that if the possibility of her destroying it is zero, there's no need to jump her when she hasn't even made a move. This all serves to show that she is infact capable of destroying it.

Now this one I originally agreed with, but one thing to remember is that with Hamura's chakra, Hinata can nullify and resist the Tenseigan's absorption as I mentioned before. While I can understand why others would assume that Hinata restored Naruto's chakra, the fact that Hinata couldn't destroy the Tenseigan as I mentioned in my argument, means that her chakra quantity and or potency isn't enough to restore such massive chakra like BSM Naruto. Added on to the fact that I proved that Hinata WASN'T weakened by Toneri only proves that Hinata isn't actually stronger than Base Naruto but in fact weaker, so there's no way she could've restored BSM Naruto's chakra.

Not Hamura's chakra, those with hamura's blood. It is potent enough and she actually did restore naruto's reserves.
A casual green orb from toneri almost siphoned all of Naruto's chakra, knocked him out that sakura almost died trying to restore it.
Toneri with a cluster of byakugan's (what made up the original tenseigan) visibly siphons Naruto's chakra again visibly weakening him to the point he couldn't even stand and knocks him out of BSM.
Merely touching Naruto isn't enough to stop the absorption, she has to link both of their chakra so that the absorption loses it's effect and the moment she does, Naruto's chakra instantly spikes back to the original level and he shows no signs of weakness and is able to enter BSM again moments later. Note that even after sakura poured her chakra into Naruto he was still weakened after waking up. Also you didn't prove that she wasn't weakened

I went through (honestly only browsed the last few arguments) the other thread and you noted hinata did 0 damage to the tenseigan. This is false, her attack clearly affected it, causing it to spark and crackle before stabilizing because the attack wasn't sufficient. Together with Naruto, the tenseigan gives off same reaction before being destroyed this time. If I remember correctly too, Hinata's performance against the puppets including the head puppet was better than Naruto's which implies Hinata> base Naruto

Disagree

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Planet level Hinata is the clearest example of powerscaling brainrot.

I obviously agree, she isn't anywhere near this level and people should understand this rather than "she has feats she scales" type of mentality.

I need to disagree there one example is from one piece crocodile is scaling the same level of durability as Rogers and white beard which is ridiculous but just because they don't seem like it doesn't mean they can't.
Currently a similar thing happened in Naruto considering that Shikamaru and the lages were amped a lot for reacting to one attack and such things.

The point is even if Hinata has or had the same tier as Naruto doesn't mean she can do the things he does that's why there is downscaling from x calc and upscaling from x calc

 

[Nierre]

did you purposely leave out the one at the beginning of the movie that messed with her chakra to the extent she couldn't walk on walls anymore or even support herself?

Nope, that proves that Hamura bloodline isn't enough to resist absorption but instead it's Hamura's chakra like I stated earlier. That instance is in direct counter to what Hinata said and what you said here:

Hamura's chakra doesn't resist the absorption, only those with hamura's blood-meaning the hyuga-are unaffected by the tenseigan's absorption.

The orbs having different functions is inconsequential to the effect that all have shown which is weakening the individual it's used on.

Prove it. Hinata seemed perfectly fine after getting controlled by Hamura and was well enough to run to the Tenseigan to destroy it. She didn't mention any signs of fatigue, nor weakness.

Except that if the possibility of her destroying it is zero, there's no need to jump her when she hasn't even made a move. This all serves to show that she is infact capable of destroying it.

Uh, no not at all. Toneri cornered her because she tricked him, not because he was wary of her power. He didn't even know she had Hamura's chakra at this point lol.

Not Hamura's chakra, those with hamura's blood.

See above.

Merely touching Naruto isn't enough to stop the absorption

Prove it. The film approves of my interpretation via the fact that it's Hamura's Chakra that's resistant NOT Hamura's blood. Hanabi wouldn't have been knocked out by the orb otherwise. Hinata's chakra wouldn't have been siphoned from the beginning of the movie if it was just Hamura's blood. It's explicitly Hamura's Chakra, which is why she can touch the original Tenseigan, and also why she was able to negate Toneri's absorption from Naruto.

This is false, her attack clearly affected it, causing it to spark and crackle before stabilizing because the attack wasn't sufficient.

Uh... if there were no cracks then she couldn't damage it. There being sparks and crackles doesn't mean shit if she can't actually harm it.

If I remember correctly too, Hinata's performance against the puppets including the head puppet was better than Naruto's which implies base hinata> base naruto

Nah all Hinata did was hit it once (or twice?), Naruto did alot better when it wasn't running away. But I'm not denying Base Naruto and Base Hinata are comparable, I just greatly disagree she's comparable to BSM.

 

[Tatsumi504]

Nope, that proves that Hamura bloodline isn't enough to resist absorption but instead it's Hamura's chakra like I stated earlier. That instance is in direct counter to what Hinata said and what you said here:

No it doesn't because you are ignoring that all it resists is absorption. None of the scenario's where they were only weakened involved absorbing chakra

Prove it. Hinata seemed perfectly fine after getting controlled by Hamura and was well enough to run to the Tenseigan to destroy it. She didn't mention any signs of fatigue, nor weakness.

She was passed out after naruto removed the orb and slightly delirious as she showed no resistance to toneri trying to put her to sleep again

Uh, no not at all. Toneri cornered her because she tricked him, not because he was wary of her power. He didn't even know she had Hamura's chakra at this point lol.

Still no need to actively stop her if she can't destroy it

See above.

Countered

Prove it. The film approves of my interpretation via the fact that it's Hamura's Chakra that's resistant NOT Hamura's blood. Hanabi wouldn't have been knocked out by the orb otherwise. Hinata's chakra wouldn't have been siphoned from the beginning of the movie if it was just Hamura's blood. It's explicitly Hamura's Chakra, which is why she can touch the original Tenseigan, and also why she was able to negate Toneri's absorption from Naruto

There is no iteration that shows the orbs being used on Hanabi nor her chakra being absorbed. Hinata herself says only those with Hamura's blood can touch the tenseigan otherwise their chakra will be drained. Hamura's blood/ chakra only resists absorption not all the shit the tenseigan can do. Hinata is clearly getting mind f*cked and controlled even after she got Hamura's chakra

Uh... if there were no cracks then she couldn't damage it. There being sparks and crackles doesn't mean shit if she can't actually harm it

It's not glass or solid. It gave off a visible reaction to her attack by it sparking then stabilizing, the same reaction it gave off when Naruto helped before directly exploding. It didn't expand neither did it crack

Nah all Hinata did was hit it once (or twice?), Naruto did alot better when it wasn't running away. But I'm not denying Base Naruto and Base Hinata are comparable, I just greatly disagree she's comparable to BSM.

Yeah,, argument seemed wonky to me too but why is base naruto unknown?

 

[mal]

Following the standards of how the chakra system works on this site, Low 5B, possibly 5B is pretty undeniable based on what she did in the last.

no u need chakra reserve+chakra control=ap not chakra reserve=ap.

hinata only have chakra reserve to replenished an unknown amount of naruto chakra. like u said its unquantifiable how much chakra she replenished in old thread.
let say she did replenished 100% naruto chakra

still she didnt have feat to control her chakra into L5B-5B ap

so using standard vsb how chakra work she cant be scale to L5B-5B bcuz u need chakra+chakra control=ap

 

[Nierre]

bump

 

[Testarossa002]

And moreover, Hinata is not the only Naruto character on this website that is scaled to a certain tier based on chakra+potency=AP. Hashirama is also scaled using the same method.

This argument should be scrapped tbh
This is a supporting evidence for hashirama's scaling
There's like 3 justification for hashirama
On the other hand, you're using hinata's chakra volume feats as a main and sole evidence for her tiering

Furthermore, the Naruto that is compared to hashirama is around country level
Yet hashirama is scaled to tier 7 based off his chakra volume

Your example even shows it's not 1:1

 

[SeiyaRyuSeiKen]

Agreed with the downgrade.

 

[Stryker861]

For those saying Hinata lacks the chakra control to be able control hamuras chakra i disagree with that for a couple of reasons. Hyuga are litterally one of the clans with the best chakra control as they need insane precision with their chakra to be able to target a tip of needle sized tenketsu when using the gentle fist. Hinata is also stated to be able to utilize perfect chakra control. Her having hamuras chakra quantity along with the chakra control would mean she scales. Hinata benefited greatly from a small amount of a 9 tails v1 cloak. I dont have to explain why Hamuras would be much more potent and in bigger quantity. She doesent have to be exactly as strong as naruto or toneri to be in the same teir. for these reasons i disagree with this crt

 

[Greatsage13th]

Agreed

 

[Nierre]

Oh I forgot about this

I should probably count the votes from the last thread that agreed with my points and the opposite side's points as well.

 

[SeiyaRyuSeiKen]

Planet level Hinata lmao

 

[Nierre]

Ok updated the tallies with the relevant votes

 

[Kachon123]

with the relevant votes

@Kachon123

Appreciate it

 

[KingTempest]

Please do not rate her as unknown. Rate her as "at least" her previous rating.

 

[Nierre]

I was going to go through the old thread to find other votes, but they aren't staff votes (so they don't matter), Tracer was the only staff who agreed with my points, Shadow agreed with the OP, but never explicitly agreed with mine

 

[Nierre]

Please do not rate her as unknown. Rate her as "at least" her previous rating.

Could "At least , likely higher with Hamura's Chakra (blah blah blah amp from Hamura's Chakra, but the amount is unknown)" work?

(I can work up an actual description later)

 

[KingTempest]

I guess

 

[Testarossa002]

I think someone once suggested that she should scale to her kurama chakra amped feat in WA where she knocked back one of ten tails arms

Since her movie self should have that much chakra(refilling Naruto blah blah blah) now

I agree with the thread btw

 

[Tdjwo]

Forgive me for taking too long. I had some personals to take care of. Now, I would address the post.

Essentially, I believe that Hinata's AP should be downgraded to Unknown, following The Last Base Naruto's AP, because she was unable to destroy The Tenseigan Vessel and needed support from Base Naruto (who is currently rated as Unknown) to destroy it, and she does not scale to BSM Naruto's AP due to the reasons spelled out below:

Counterpoints:

"But Hinata was weakened by the orb Toneri had placed into her because it had absorbed her chakra, so she obviously wouldn't be as strong as she would've been if she was at her peak strength"

Hinata is explicitly stated to resist absorption from the Tenseigan's absorption ability BECAUSE of Hamura's Chakra.

That is not the green orb. That is a literal Tenseigan energy vessel which is completely different. They don't work the same way. The green orb looks like this. And that knocked out Hinata. Hinata never stated nor showed any resistance or immunity to the green orb. She was only immune to the Tenseigan orb.

For starters, the orb that went inside of Hinata couldn't have absorbed her chakra, because she has Hamura's Chakra. All the orb did was control her so that she wouldn't betray Toneri again.

Regardless of what the orb does, whether it's for controlling or knocking someone out, one thing is certain, everybody that got in contact with the orb had their chakra system messed up for a while, even after removal. Hamura chakra doesn't give Hinata any immunity to the green orb. If Toneri was able to puppeteer her with the orb even after gaining Hamura's chakra, doesn't that prove Hinata never got any immunity to the green orb but only immunity to the Tenseigan orb?

But secondly, when Naruto took out the orb from Hinata's body, his chakra wasn't absorbed despite grabbing it, meaning that it didn't weaken/absorb Hinata's chakra at all.

This is an argument from anecdotal evidence. Naruto being able to hold the orb with whatever jutsu he used by plunging through Hinata's chest doesn't disprove anything. The burden of proof is on you to prove what jutsu Naruto used to even be able to phase his arm through Hinata without killing her. It's evidently clear that it wasn't any conventional jutsu via just chakra. We don't know how Naruto did that or why his chakra wasn't absorbed, so the argument remains null.

Yes, she did briefly faint, but she was still completely fine after and showed 0 signs of fatigue or weakness throughout the film.

Prove that she was completely fine. Did you remember this? 90% of the fandom till this day who watched the movie still think Hinata was a weakling who couldn't walk on a wall because of how they completely didn't notice what the green orb did to her. My point is, the green orb wouldn't show anything on the outside damage-wise, but internally, she would already be less than her full power. It happened to Naruto too.

She likely fainted due to Naruto entering her body (pause) to extract the orb, not because the orb made her weak. The orb Toneri used against Naruto were explicitly used to absorb his chakra and knock him out of commission so he would get out of Toneri's way. The first time was to keep him away from himself and Hinata so they can continue the ritual, and the second time was to use his chakra to move the moon, absorbing his chakra would keep him from moving and fighting back. So the orb has multiple different functions and uses and they don't all absorb chakra.

Your links aren't even proving what you're saying right at all but that's irrelevant. You made an assumption that Hinata fainted due to Naruto entering her body. ASSUMPTION. The orb clearly is the reason. The orbs obviously had multiple functions but one thing remained clear and consistent. Everybody who came in contact with it had their chakra tampered.

"If Hinata wasn't strong enough to destroy the Tenseigan, then why did Toneri send guards her way?"

That's because he was suspicious about her true intentions. After Toneri had put Hinata to sleep, he wanted to learn more about Hinata and looked into her memories using his orb, and in the orb he saw Naruto. After Hinata awakens, Toneri then walks her through the castle and continues to talk about his goal. Hinata questions him even more, looking for clues, as she wants to free her sister who's being held captive by Toneri, and save the Earth as he plans on destroying it by sending the moon into the Earth. She then asks him a vital question that would help her find where the Tenseigan was being held, to which Toneri says he won't tell her and then remembers the memories he saw in Hinata. Then he asks her to knit a scarf for him to test her loyalty, as he saw her knitting one for Naruto, which she reluctantly obliges. Later they both share a meal together. Toneri tries to have her talk about herself just so they can get closer, but Hinata changes the subject and tells him to stop what he's doing and try to negotiate with the Shinobi of the Earth. Toneri then gets pissed and tells her not to mention that subject again. Then a castle floats by and Hinata is able to confirm that's where the Tenseigan is. And finally, Hinata and Toneri go to the castle to "pay homage" to Hamura himself, but she obviously is undercover and in reality is looking for the Tenseigan. While they're there, she slips up and asks if the real Tenseigan is in the castle, and that's when Toneri looks at her suspiciously and she is informed that only people in exalted positions are allowed to see the real Tenseigan. And he promises her she'll see it after they're married.

I say all this to say, Toneri was always suspicious of Hinata which is why he had guards watch over her, that's why when she found the real Tenseigan's location, the guards (and Toneri) jumped her.

Toneri suspecting Hinata of betraying him is completely irrelevant because if he really thought she couldn't destroy the Tenseigan, he wouldn't have had his guards keeping a watchful eye on her. After all, he knew she couldn't just run away leaving her blind sister behind. So there was only one reason Toneri constantly had his guards watching her. It's because he knew she had the ability to destroy the Tenseigan. In order words, he thinks she has the AP enough to do that. Why do you think he was reluctant to she her where the Tenseigan was? If he thought she wasn't strong enough to destroy it anyways, do you think he had any valid reason to keep the location of the Tenseigan a secret from her? You typed a whole argument without noticing how everyone thought Hinata could destroy the Tenseigan. Toneri implied she could destroy it, Hamura implied she could as well, Hamura's guard implied she could, and even Hinata stated she could. The only reason she failed is already explained.

"Hinata was able to refill Naruto's BSM chakra reserves after Toneri had used his orb to absorb his chakra. Because of this Hinata's chakra quantity and potency should translate to her AP"

Now this one I originally agreed with, but one thing to remember is that with Hamura's chakra, Hinata can nullify and resist the Tenseigan's absorption as I mentioned before. While I can understand why others would assume that Hinata restored Naruto's chakra, the fact that Hinata couldn't destroy the Tenseigan as I mentioned in my argument, means that her chakra quantity and or potency isn't enough to restore such massive chakra like BSM Naruto. Added on to the fact that I proved that Hinata WASN'T weakened by Toneri only proves that Hinata isn't actually stronger than Base Naruto but in fact weaker, so there's no way she could've restored BSM Naruto's chakra.

This is obviously incorrect, but Idk how you keep ignoring my previous responses to this particular argument. Hinata did replenish Naruto's chakra. I talked about this before.

Was Naruto's chakra really low enough for us to consider Hinata replenishing him as something significant?

When Toneri was absorbing BSM Naruto's chakra, Naruto made a statement that Toneri was absorbing all of his chakra. A few seconds later, the Tenseigan stopped absorbing Naruto's chakra, and we see Naruto kneel on the ground, shaking, trembling and visibly weakened in base form. This means the Tenseigan had successfully absorbed all of SM Naruto + half Kurama's chakra till the point he had to kneel on the ground panting really hard. This behaviour is something that Naruto had done before in the war arc. In the war arc, he started panting hard which Madara noticed and claimed that he had reached his limit because Naruto had expended all his chakra reserves due to him carrying the entire shinobi alliance with his kyuubi chakra. The way Naruto knelt and acted was completely identical to how Naruto acted in The Last. To better support my argument, Sakura specifically stated that it was time for Naruto to recover as he still stayed in that same position, visibly exhausted as everyone rallied round to protect Naruto has he had run out of chakra. Moments later, we see Kurama amassing chakra in that position where he joins his palm together which indicates that Kurama was indeed empty on chakra thus needing quite some time to build more chakra as Minato takes over in place of Naruto. And we know it takes quite some time for Kurama to mould chakra for Naruto to re-enter his KCM mode which is why Yang Kurama asked Yin Kurama to lend him some chakra as it was taking too long for him to fully replenish Naruto on time.
All these proves that Naruto in The Last was completely out of chakra both in his base form, and with Kurama's chakra supply based on similar incidents that happened in the war arc. He acted even worse in The last. He acted more exhausted in base form than he did in the war arc. So for Hinata to completely replenish him and take him back to Bijuu Sage Mode(not just KCM2), it shows how significant her chakra supply was to Naruto.

Hinata being unable to destroy the Tenseigan is due to the green orb. Even if we assume base Naruto was the one who destroyed it, base Hinata scales to him anyways so if you think he's low 5B, possibly 5B for destroying it, then Hinata would be the same.

Therefore Hinata's AP should scale to Unknown.

Not at all. She's perfectly fine where she is right now. Everybody that knew about the Tenseigan within the Otsutsukis knew that Hinata could destroy it.

Not only did Toneri order his guards to stop Hinata from reaching the Tenseigan, but he also refused to tell Hinata where the Tenseigan was located. If she was going to live with him forever and didn't consider her strong enough to destroy the Tenseigan, he would have had no problem telling her where it is. After all, he already showed her everywhere in his castle except for the Tenseigan's location. This means he thinks Hinata could destroy the Tenseigan if he showed her where it was.

Hamura's head soldier also implied Hinata could destroy it as well

Hamura personally implied it as well

Hinata(before the orb poisoning) did as well

Several implications shows Hinata is able to destroy the Tenseigan. The only reason she failed is for the reasons I already explained.

I disagree with the downgrade.

 

[Nierre]

Already got u.

I'll get more staff input later

 

[Nierre]

Bump

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Now this one I originally agreed with, but one thing to remember is that with Hamura's chakra, Hinata can nullify and resist the Tenseigan's absorption as I mentioned before. While I can understand why others would assume that Hinata restored Naruto's chakra, the fact that Hinata couldn't destroy the Tenseigan as I mentioned in my argument, means that her chakra quantity and or potency isn't enough to restore such massive chakra like BSM Naruto. Added on to the fact that I proved that Hinata WASN'T weakened by Toneri only proves that Hinata isn't actually stronger than Base Naruto but in fact weaker, so there's no way she could've restored BSM Naruto's chakra.

I've said this more times than I could count in my previous attempts to shut down this upgrade before my hiatus, but I guess it went through in the end due to sheer persistence lmao.
Hinata didn't restore Naruto's chakra reserves, that idea never made sense for a plethora of reasons. She just nullified the Tenseigan's absorption.

Anyway, I don't currently have time to make a lengthy response, so I'll just say that I agree with this downgrade.
She should be Unknown for now, until we agree on base Naruto's rating down the line. However, I'm also okay with KT's suggestion of having her just be unquantifiably higher than her War Arc self.

 

[Deagonx]

This looks good to me. We could put her as "At least" her war arc tier or likely higher, however we phrase it is fine, but I agree with the points made in the OP.