"The Last" Hinata's AP (Downgrade) #3254616

[Tdjwo]

I've said this more times than I could count in my previous attempts to shut down this upgrade before my hiatus, but I guess it went through in the end due to sheer persistence lmao.
Hinata didn't restore Naruto's chakra reserves, that idea never made sense for a plethora of reasons. She just nullified the Tenseigan's absorption.

Anyway, I don't currently have time to make a lengthy response, so I'll just say that I agree with this downgrade.
She should be Unknown for now, until we agree on base Naruto's rating down the line. However, I'm also okay with KT's suggestion of having her just be unquantifiably higher than her War Arc self.

Please read my latest comment above before agreeing. It doesn't seem like anyone here has read my arguments not to mention debunking them.

 

[Nierre]

Counted both votes.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Counted both votes .

 

[Nierre]

Counted both votes .

@in Brazil, Brazilian Noodles are Straight L Magnets

 

[M3X_2.0]

Coward...

 

[mal]

Please read my latest comment above before agreeing. It doesn't seem like anyone here has read my arguments not to mention debunking them.

anything u said contradicted the movie

Hinata still can use twin air palm.that mean she still have perfect chakra control after naruto take out toneri green orb from her.so stop using that green orb make she cant control her chakra.

and about she replenished naruto's chakra cant be used as proof she have the same chakra reserves as him.

we saw Naruto still can instantly go to BSM after he used all his chakra reserves to punch toneri.that show he didnt need all his chakra reserves to used BSM.

so hinata only replenished an unknown amount of naruto's chakra.

 

[Tdjwo]

anything u said contradicted the movie

Hinata still can use twin air palm.that mean she still have perfect chakra control after naruto take out toneri green orb from her.so stop using that green orb make she cant control her chakra.

Just by reading this part, it shows you didn't read anything I wrote neither did you understand anything you watched or read. This is rubbish

 

[Deagonx]

Just by reading this part, it shows you didn't read anything I wrote neither did you understand anything you watched or read. This is rubbish

Don't make comments like this in the future. It doesn't add anything to the discussion and it's just rude.

 

[Tdjwo]

Don't make comments like this in the future. It doesn't add anything to the discussion and it's just rude.

My bad.

 

[mal]

Just by reading this part, it shows you didn't read anything I wrote neither did you understand anything you watched or read. This is rubbish

lmao how tf would i know u used "green orb" as a proof if i didnt read ur comment.maybe u need to reread ur comment again

 

[LordTracer]

I thought I commented here but apparently not, make her “At least [her War Arc tier], likely higher” instead of Unknown.

 

[Tdjwo]

I thought I commented here but apparently not, make her “At least [her War Arc tier], likely higher” instead of Unknown.

Please read my post explaining why she should remain low 5B, possibly 5B.

 

[Nierre]

I'll get to applying the changes on the weekend, as I'm busy during the week.

 

[LordTracer]

Please read my post explaining why she should remain low 5B, possibly 5B.

I did. Stop assuming that everyone who agrees with the thread didn’t read your post, it’s really annoying.

 

[Tdjwo]

I did. Stop assuming that everyone who agrees with the thread didn’t read your post, it’s really annoying.

If you did read it, please explain to me what and why you still disagreed with.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

It’s been more than 48 hours and this as nigh unanimous agreement, I think this can be applied

 

[Tdjwo]

Still, no one made any relevant refutation to my argument‍

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Or maybe repeating the same argument with a different coat of paint didn't convince anyone...

 

[Tdjwo]

Or maybe repeating the same argument with a different coat of paint didn't convince anyone...

You know what's crazy, thats exactly what you guys have been doing. I gave plethora of points and debunks why you guys kept sticking on her inability to destroy the tenseigan despite explaining the reason she couldn't to y'all.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

You know what's crazy, thats exactly what you guys have been doing. I gave plethora of points and debunks why you guys kept sticking on her inability to destroy the tenseigan despite explaining the reason she couldn't to y'all.

I literally haven't argued on this thread, don't use that tone with me young man. If you think the staff on this thread aren't giving you a good evaluation, go find someone else. But you've done this Hinata thread rodeo like some 8 times already, don't expect the regulars to want to give you the time of day arguing the same points across the same thread repeated (before you ask, yes I know you didn't make this thread, not the point).

 

[Deagonx]

Still, no one made any relevant refutation to my argument‍

Someone did. It was the OP.

 

[Tdjwo]

Someone did. It was the OP.

No he didn't.

 

[Deagonx]

I disagree

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Someone did. It was the OP.

Deagonx and I agree on sumn for a change lol

 

[Ped2018]

Where the hell is Nierre bruh

 

[Tdjwo]

I literally haven't argued on this thread, don't use that tone with me young man. If you think the staff on this thread aren't giving you a good evaluation, go find someone else. But you've done this Hinata thread rodeo like some 8 times already, don't expect the regulars to want to give you the time of day arguing the same points across the same thread repeated (before you ask, yes I know you didn't make this thread, not the point).

I don't get why you are so worked up from my comment. "Young man" is the most unnecessary description as you don't even know my age.
Anyways, I wasn't talking to you in particular. If you read what I wrote clearly, I was generalizing. That shouldn't be too hard for a young man to understand.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I don't get why you are so worked up from my comment. "Young man" is the most unnecessary description as you don't even know my age.

I ain't worked up, I just thought it sounded funny relax bucko

Anyways, I wasn't talking to you in particular. If you read what I wrote clearly, I was generalizing. That shouldn't be too hard for a young man to understand.

Don't respond to me and say "you guys" if you ain't talking about me, go argue for your point better, or get more staff to comment

 

[Tdjwo]

I ain't worked up, I just thought it sounded funny relax bucko

Sure pal It wasn't funny tho. You sounded mad.

Don't respond to me and say "you guys" if you ain't talking about me, go argue for your point better, or get more staff to comment

Again, I wasn't talking to only you damn can't you read

 

[Tdjwo]

I told Nierre when he made this post that I was going to take a short break for personal reasons and comment on his points later on which I did but nobody made any refutations to it and just agreed with Nierre's point regardless. Doesn't sound fair and logical, does it?
This was the comment

Forgive me for taking too long. I had some personals to take care of. Now, I would address the post.

That is not the green orb. That is a literal Tenseigan energy vessel which is completely different. They don't work the same way. The green orb looks like this. And that knocked out Hinata. Hinata never stated nor showed any resistance or immunity to the green orb. She was only immune to the Tenseigan orb.

Regardless of what the orb does, whether it's for controlling or knocking someone out, one thing is certain, everybody that got in contact with the orb had their chakra system messed up for a while, even after removal. Hamura chakra doesn't give Hinata any immunity to the green orb. If Toneri was able to puppeteer her with the orb even after gaining Hamura's chakra, doesn't that prove Hinata never got any immunity to the green orb but only immunity to the Tenseigan orb?

This is an argument from anecdotal evidence. Naruto being able to hold the orb with whatever jutsu he used by plunging through Hinata's chest doesn't disprove anything. The burden of proof is on you to prove what jutsu Naruto used to even be able to phase his arm through Hinata without killing her. It's evidently clear that it wasn't any conventional jutsu via just chakra. We don't know how Naruto did that or why his chakra wasn't absorbed, so the argument remains null.

Prove that she was completely fine. Did you remember this? 90% of the fandom till this day who watched the movie still think Hinata was a weakling who couldn't walk on a wall because of how they completely didn't notice what the green orb did to her. My point is, the green orb wouldn't show anything on the outside damage-wise, but internally, she would already be less than her full power. It happened to Naruto too.


Your links aren't even proving what you're saying right at all but that's irrelevant. You made an assumption that Hinata fainted due to Naruto entering her body. ASSUMPTION. The orb clearly is the reason. The orbs obviously had multiple functions but one thing remained clear and consistent. Everybody who came in contact with it had their chakra tampered.

Toneri suspecting Hinata of betraying him is completely irrelevant because if he really thought she couldn't destroy the Tenseigan, he wouldn't have had his guards keeping a watchful eye on her. After all, he knew she couldn't just run away leaving her blind sister behind. So there was only one reason Toneri constantly had his guards watching her. It's because he knew she had the ability to destroy the Tenseigan. In order words, he thinks she has the AP enough to do that. Why do you think he was reluctant to she her where the Tenseigan was? If he thought she wasn't strong enough to destroy it anyways, do you think he had any valid reason to keep the location of the Tenseigan a secret from her? You typed a whole argument without noticing how everyone thought Hinata could destroy the Tenseigan. Toneri implied she could destroy it, Hamura implied she could as well, Hamura's guard implied she could, and even Hinata stated she could. The only reason she failed is already explained.

This is obviously incorrect, but Idk how you keep ignoring my previous responses to this particular argument. Hinata did replenish Naruto's chakra. I talked about this before.

Hinata being unable to destroy the Tenseigan is due to the green orb. Even if we assume base Naruto was the one who destroyed it, base Hinata scales to him anyways so if you think he's low 5B, possibly 5B for destroying it, then Hinata would be the same.

Not at all. She's perfectly fine where she is right now. Everybody that knew about the Tenseigan within the Otsutsukis knew that Hinata could destroy it.

Not only did Toneri order his guards to stop Hinata from reaching the Tenseigan, but he also refused to tell Hinata where the Tenseigan was located. If she was going to live with him forever and didn't consider her strong enough to destroy the Tenseigan, he would have had no problem telling her where it is. After all, he already showed her everywhere in his castle except for the Tenseigan's location. This means he thinks Hinata could destroy the Tenseigan if he showed her where it was.

Hamura's head soldier also implied Hinata could destroy it as well

Hamura personally implied it as well

Hinata(before the orb poisoning) did as well

Several implications shows Hinata is able to destroy the Tenseigan. The only reason she failed is for the reasons I already explained.

I disagree with the downgrade.

 

[Testarossa002]

Okay I'll bite
Although I feel the staffs who commented here would have seen your post and were still unconvinced
I'm doing this so we don't get another hinata upgrade thread in 3 days from now

Here I go

This is an argument from anecdotal evidence. Naruto being able to hold the orb with whatever jutsu he used by plunging through Hinata's chest doesn't disprove anything. The burden of proof is on you to prove what jutsu Naruto used to even be able to phase his arm through Hinata without killing her. It's evidently clear that it wasn't any conventional jutsu via just chakra. We don't know how Naruto did that or why his chakra wasn't absorbed, so the argument remains null.

This would be fine and all (it's not) if Naruto didn't hold and squash the orb without coating himself with chakra

Prove that she was completely fine. Did you remember this? 90% of the fandom till this day who watched the movie still think Hinata was a weakling who couldn't walk on a wall because of how they completely didn't notice what the green orb did to her. My point is, the green orb wouldn't show anything on the outside damage-wise, but internally, she would already be less than her full power. It happened to Naruto too.

This point is quite faulty because:

• Unlike the orb used in the marriage chamber, the one used actually knocks her out immediately
• In Konoha, she couldn't even mould chakra, evident by her not even being able to walk on the wall unaided. On the other hand, she could run and even mould chakra well enough to activate and use her most powerful jutsu

Toneri suspecting Hinata of betraying him is completely irrelevant because if he really thought she couldn't destroy the Tenseigan, he wouldn't have had his guards keeping a watchful eye on her. After all, he knew she couldn't just run away leaving her blind sister behind. So there was only one reason Toneri constantly had his guards watching her.

Or he simply didn't trust her enough because she just pulled a 360 on her emotions to him
It wasn't based off power
it was explained that only high ranking otsutsuki clan members are allowed to see the tenseigan. Toneri even offered to show her the real thing once they get married

It's because he knew she had the ability to destroy the Tenseigan. In order words, he thinks she has the AP enough to do that. Why do you think he was reluctant to she her where the Tenseigan was?

How you think toneri came to this conclusion? By seeing her feats from war arc? Since he said he regularly checked up on her (aka stalker) and the last time and place hinata's power was on full display was during the war as far as we know
And before you say it, he seemed pretty surprised that hamura appeared to her

Even if we assume base Naruto was the one who destroyed it, base Hinata scales to him anyways so if you think he's low 5B, possibly 5B for destroying it, then Hinata would be the same.

Why is this exactly?

Not only did Toneri order his guards to stop Hinata from reaching the Tenseigan, but he also refused to tell Hinata where the Tenseigan was located. If she was going to live with him forever and didn't consider her strong enough to destroy the Tenseigan, he would have had no problem telling her where it is. After all, he already showed her everywhere in his castle except for the Tenseigan's location. This means he thinks Hinata could destroy the Tenseigan if he showed her where it was

Explained

Hamura's head soldier also implied Hinata could destroy it as well

Hamura personally implied it as well

Hinata(before the orb poisoning) did as well

Several implications shows Hinata is able to destroy the Tenseigan

Unfortunately, she tried and failed
Heck, when she failed, she didn't say something like "my chakra hasn't recovered" or "my body is still numb". She directly states that she could not destroy it. Right after firing her most powerful jutsu

Leaving apart the tenseigan
Are we supposed to ignore the fact that Hinata couldn't break out of the cage toneri put her in?
He made it out of pure chakra and she was stuck there until he was defeated.
Even after she thought Naruto was defeated
Toneri was exerting most of his power against Nardo.
When you're pushing for BSM Naruto=Hinata>>Toneri

Already addressed your Chakra=AP or something statement earlier

 

[Tdjwo]

This would be fine and all (it's not) if Naruto didn't hold and squash the orb without coating himself with chakra

Every single link you posted to that youtube video doesn't work. Maybe it's because of the regional difference.For some reason, I'm not permitted to watch the video.
Anyways, I checked that particular scene and indeed Naruto stopped coating himself with the orb after he brought it out. But then again, as I said earlier, this is still an argument based on anecdotal evidence because it's certain/uncertain that the orb's function already ceased working once Naruto extracted the orb from Hinata. Truthfully, I'm not sure but neither can you be due to the lack of sufficient explanations as to how Naruto was even able to pull out the orb from inside her. That's why I stated that this particular argument is null because both sides can argue for whatever without necessarily being right or wrong.

This point is quite faulty because:

• Unlike the orb used in the marriage chamber, the one used actually knocks her out immediately

I don't know what you wanted to show since the youtube link doesn't work. But if she truly did get knocked out immediately, it doesn't matter because as I said before, the orb does multiple things and has multiple functions but the end result is always to weaken stats.

• In Konoha, she couldn't even mould chakra, evident by her not even being able to walk on the wall unaided. On the other hand, she could run and even mould chakra well enough to activate and use her most powerful jutsu

Same explanation as above. The orb's effect and speed varies. But at the end, the character would be weakened regardless.

Or he simply didn't trust her enough because she just pulled a 360 on her emotions to him
It wasn't based off power as he was it was explained that only high ranking otsutsuki clan members are allowed to see the tenseigan. Toneri even offered to show her the real thing

The link doesn't work. I don't recall Toneri offering to show her where the Tenseigan was. Even if she were to pull a 360 on him, he knew quite well that she couldn't escape the castle so why would he care if she betrayed him? The worst she could have done was killing him by maybe poisoning etc. But he knows she can't escape from the castle. Toneri never stated that Hinata couldn't see the Tenseigan because she wasn't a "high ranking Otsutsuki member" I don't recall that ever happening in the movie. If you can post scans rather than video links, that would be better.

How you think toneri came to this conclusion? By seeing her feats from war arc? Since he said he regularly checked up on her (aka stalker) and the last time and place hinata's power was on full display was during the war as far as we know

Well, since you brought up the issue of him stalking her 24/7, maybe he saw her do something that could endanger his Tenseigan because there's no other logical reason for him to refuse showing Hinata the tenseigan's location and asking his guards to keep a close watch on her so that she wouldn't get near the tenseigan. I'm simply using Occam razor.

And before you say it, he seemed pretty surprised that hamura appeared to her

Yes I know that. Infact, that was one of my supporting pieces of evidence for Hinata possessing Hamura's chakra because Toneri didn't know Hinata saw Hamura and after he saw her replenishing Naruto and Hinata telling him how she was able to do that, he was surprised.

Why is this exactly?

Because Hinata>~base Naruto in the movie. It;s been accepted in the wiki for the longest time already.

Explained

Debunked

Unfortunately, she tried and failed
Heck, when she failed, she didn't say something like "my chakra hasn't recovered" or "my body is still numb". She directly states that she could not destroy it. Right after firing her most powerful jutsu

Her dialogue doesn't matter. It happens often in anime. For example, a character's attack could be getting absorbed by the opponent and his dialogue could be "I can't hit him!" rather than "He's absorbing my attacks!" It's not always the case, but this specific scenario could be applied here. As for her not destroying it with her twin lion fist, I believe I explained this for the 100th time already.

Leaving apart the tenseigan
Are we supposed to ignore the fact that Hinata couldn't break out of the cage toneri put her in?
He made it out of pure chakra and she was stuck there until he was defeated.

The orb was materialized into a cage. The durability of the cage is literally unquantifiable. Using your logic, Naruto should scale vastly below base Momoshiki because he couldn't free himself from Momishiki's shinju tree branch?

Even after she thought Naruto was defeated
Toneri was exerting most of his power against Nardo.
When you're pushing for BSM Naruto=Hinata>>Toneri

When did I ever say Hinata physically scaled to Naruto and Toneri? Like, where did I ever state that?

Already addressed your Chakra=AP or something statement earlier

And I debunked everything.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Testarossa posting ip grabbers

 

[Testarossa002]

Man
It'll take a while to change the scans
It's currently in dub so sending frames will be useless at times

 

[Nierre]

My bad I forgot about this thread lol I'll get to it eventually..

 

[Testarossa002]

Replaced the relevant links

But then again, as I said earlier, this is still an argument based on anecdotal evidence because it's certain/uncertain that the orb's function already ceased working once Naruto extracted the orb from Hinata. Truthfully, I'm not sure but neither can you be due to the lack of sufficient explanations as to how Naruto was even able to pull out the orb from inside her. That's why I stated that this particular argument is null because both sides can argue for whatever without necessarily being right or wrong.

When the orb was used after Toneri was defeated, it was absorbing his Chakra without Naruto even touching it
All this means is that the orbs have varying usage depending on what the user wants it to do
Toneri has used it to:
1. Knock out Hinata and mess up her chakra moulding ability
2. Absorb chakra both with and without contact
3. A medium to puppet someone

It is very illogical of you to assume that all 3 mess up chakra moulding despite showings

I don't know what you wanted to show since the youtube link doesn't work. But if she truly did get knocked out immediately, it doesn't matter because as I said before, the orb does multiple things and has multiple functions but the end result is always to weaken stats.

Unfortunately, if you don't have a statement that generalizes the orbs, your claim has no ground.
Naruto squashing it is an obvious case.

Same explanation as above. The orb's effect and speed varies. But at the end, the character would be weakened regardless.

Answered above.
Hinata showed 0 signs of being weakened after Naruto pulled it out.

The link doesn't work. I don't recall Toneri offering to show her where the Tenseigan was. Even if she were to pull a 360 on him, he knew quite well that she couldn't escape the castle so why would he care if she betrayed him? The worst she could have done was killing him by maybe poisoning etc. But he knows she can't escape from the castle. Toneri never stated that Hinata couldn't see the Tenseigan because she wasn't a "high ranking Otsutsuki member" I don't recall that ever happening in the movie. If you can post scans rather than video links, that would be better.

Link is working now.

Well, since you brought up the issue of him stalking her 24/7, maybe he saw her do something that could endanger his Tenseigan because there's no other logical reason for him to refuse showing Hinata the tenseigan's location and asking his guards to keep a close watch on her so that she wouldn't get near the tenseigan. I'm simply using Occam razor.

Check the link for the whole showing her the tenseigan
Besides
Hinata at her absolute peak shown in combat was like Juubi Spawn level without outside amps.
If you're saying Toneri saw her do something here, are we now going to scale people like the Hokages to 5-B? Because they scale above her then.
Unless Toneri saw her knitting and felt she could nuke the tenseigan with a double stitch

Yes I know that. Infact, that was one of my supporting pieces of evidence for Hinata possessing Hamura's chakra because Toneri didn't know Hinata saw Hamura and after he saw her replenishing Naruto and Hinata telling him how she was able to do that, he was surprised.

That was not the point I was driving at.
Your interpretation boils down to this.
Toneri didn't know she had Hamura's chakra
Which going by your logic, he thought she could destroy the tenseigan with her base power.
As opposed to him simply not trusting her not to betray him and reveal the tenseigan secrets to her allies.
Which interpretation is less ludicrous?

Because Hinata>~base Naruto in the movie. It;s been accepted in the wiki for the longest time already.

Speed? Sure
AP? Why exactly?
Can't find the justification anywhere ig

Her dialogue doesn't matter. It happens often in anime. For example, a character's attack could be getting absorbed by the opponent and his dialogue could be "I can't hit him!" rather than "He's absorbing my attacks!" It's not always the case, but this specific scenario could be applied here. As for her not destroying it with her twin lion fist, I believe I explained this for the 100th time already.

This would be fine and all (it's not) if Hinata herself didn't admit when body going numb early on in the movie
The novel already gave enough clarity on this

The orb was materialized into a cage. The durability of the cage is literally unquantifiable. Using your logic, Naruto should scale vastly below base Momoshiki because he couldn't free himself from Momishiki's shinju tree branch?

False equivalence
Naruto was restrained and had his chakra being painfully extracted from him. Not to mention that he was probably unconscious in the initial stages
As opposed to Hinata who was just left in there
She didn't even attempt to break out
And it doesn't matter how unquantifiable it is
Your scale goes like this
Hinata=BSM Naruto>>TCM Toneri
There's literally a oneshot gap between Naruto and Toneri
Someone who is relative if not superior to Naruto (as she was perfectly fine after refilling Naruto according to you) is breaking out of the cage with ease

When did I ever say Hinata physically scaled to Naruto and Toneri? Like, where did I ever state that?

Literally doesn't matter whether it was physically or Ninjutsu

And I debunked everything

This argument should be scrapped tbh
This is a supporting evidence for hashirama's scaling
There's like 3 justification for hashirama
On the other hand, you're using hinata's chakra volume feats as a main and sole evidence for her tiering

Furthermore, the Naruto that is compared to hashirama is around country level
Yet hashirama is scaled to tier 7 based off his chakra volume

Your example even shows it's not 1:1

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I agree with Testarossa, and the downgrade at large FRA.

 

[Eseseso]

Just scale her to her War Arc AP.

But why would you nerf best girl like that-

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Hinata ain’t best girl when Tsunade exists

 

[Stryker861]

Hinata ain’t best girl when Tsunade exists

Rin negs

 

[Tdjwo]

Hinata ain’t best girl when Tsunade exists

Rin negs

Stfu Granny and Pedo enjoyers