She used her strongest jutsu prior and did 0 damage. Even if we were to say Hinata did 5% and Naruto did 95% of the damage (which is not only unfounded, but also a random %), Hinata is still FAR weaker than Naruto who is rated as Unknown.
How does that prove that Sai or Sakura didn't take the same amount of force as Naruto and Hinata??? Just because they were sent separate ways doesn't prove anything and you know that. They were literally all in the center of the blast lmao
None of the staff members even addressed the post I made.
Ok? Hamura gave her his chakra to destroy the tenseigan. Did he know that she was going to get her chakra messe with by the green orb on several occasions and we know the orb messes up your stats. You can't prove Hinata at her normal stats wouldn't have been able to destroy the tenseigan. Furthermore, I explicitly explained to you that it's definitely possible that Hinata wasn't or couldn't use Hamura's amp at that moment especially because she used the word "Hamura's blood" to describe her immunity to the jutsu unlike later in the movie when she uses the word, "Hamura's chakra." If you think Base Naruto had enough AP to destroy the tenseigan alone, then he would have had no problem oneshotting Tenseigan Toneri in base instead of focusing his BSM chakra. The fact that it took him hours to defeat Toneri despite physically clashing with him indicates base Naruto scaling to the tenseigan alone is an antifeat for BSM Naruto. Not to mention, Hinata with hamura's chakra already has better AP, speed and durability than Naruto which is accepted on this wiki already due to her better performance against the Guardian puppet compared to Naruto so this would only backtrack us to Hinata>Base Naruto.
And again, you are ignoring why she couldn't destroy it. It's not like Hamura would have known Toneri was going to do anything with her anyways. The fact remains clear. He gave her his chakra which she clearly used to replenish Naruto's BSM reserves. That's something you can't disprove because she explicitly said that and Toneri was baffled and surprised at the fact that Hinata could replenish Naruto. Remember, Toneri already knew Hinata's immunity to the tenseigan which means the reason he was surprised wasn't because of her bloodline immunity to the tenseigan, but her massive reserves she got from Hamura.
Explained above
Sai, Sakura and Shikamaru were never hit directly by the silver wheel. They were never hit with the jutsu in the first place. Shikamaru, Sai, and Sakura were lucky enough to escape the Tornado. They only got drifted away by the wind of the tornado. Not the impact itself
I didn't ignore anything. It seems like you were the one who ignored every single point I made. Also, I don't remember up to 3 staffs agreeing with the downgrade. Only one did. That's not enough to pass the crt wth? And why are you entitled to remove her AP? You are not even a staff member nor did anyone tell you to remove it.
But you also can't prove that she could?? Not only did she look totally fine when she attacked the orb, but you're also somehow saying that even while her chakra was being messed with by the green orb, she was also fully capable of restoring Naruto's chakra reserves, like???
....they are LITERALLY in the jutsu and getting blown away what are you talking about.Sai, Sakura and Shikamaru were never hit directly by the silver wheel. They were never hit with the jutsu in the first place. Shikamaru, Sai, and Sakura were lucky enough to escape the Tornado. They only got drifted away by the wind of the tornado. Not the impact itself
I'm not ignoring anything, Hinata was unable to because she wasn't strong enough. Even if we assume that her chakra was tampered with, you're saying she wasn't strong enough to destroy Hamura's Tenseigan, but was apparently strong enough to fully restore Naruto and Kurama's Chakra?
Shadow and Lord Tracer, that's 2.
Yes it is??
Anyone can change a person's stats if it was agreed upon by staff, which it was. By two people.
Uh, no they had guards to watch her because she obviously wasn't trustworthy after Toneri found out she lied to him
I can. The very fact that hours later, Hinata performed a BSM level feat with it shows she's stronger than her weakened version that failed to destroy the orb.
That makes absolutely no sense. There's no such thing as "Hamura's Tenseigan." The tenseigan is a cluster of byakugans. Hamura awakened his own Tenseigan. The fist and only person to naturally awaken it. Toneri's tenseigan is by default weaker than Hamura's tenseigan. Toneri's tenseiga is gotten from just a pair of byakugans, Meanwhile, the tenseigan that got destroyed was a cluster of different byakugans.
No they are not. Did you even watch the movie? How the hell did Sakura, Sai and Shikamaru land in a totally different place if they were IN the jutsu with Naruto and Hinata? You could literally see Naruto and Hinata inside the gigantic crater formed from the impact of the explosion. Shikamaru and the rest weren't even near that location after the jutsu got unleashed. Idk if this is sheer ignorance or what?
Yes because you can't compare a Hinata who just got tampered with via the orb to an Hinata who has had hours of time to recover and it's pretty clear she replenished his chakra. She stated that she had Hamura's CHAKRA and Toneri looked surprised as hell after seeing what she did to Naruto despite knowing she already had the immunity of the Tenseigan since the start of the movie.
It's supposed to be at least 3 staff members.
Two people isn't enough.
More staff members agreed than the ones who disagreed. It wouldn't have been approved if the ratio wasn't in my favour.
Why is that relevant? If Toneri thought that she wouldn't be able to destroy it anyways, he wouldn't have bothered asking the guards from preventing her to be anywhere near it. Her being untrustworthy doesn't matter if she wasn't going to be able to destroy the tenseigan. Yet Toneri needed to take her away from the tenseigan. You can't disprove the intenition.
THis is a very horrible mental gymnastics you are pulling. Staff members don't always have to be knowledgeable on a particular verse for them to give their opinions on an issue. The fact that they read the thread and possibly read the comments and agreed anyways doesn't discredit anything. Using this logic, if a verse has 1 knowledgeable staff and an upgrade for that verse is created, but up to 5 staffs who have zero knowledge on the verse disagrees, then it wouldn't matter because they have no knowledge on the verse? Doesn;t that sound ridiculous?
...? It wasn't hours later. It was under an hour. The Raikage gave Kakashi an hour for Naruto to defeat Toneri or else he'd shoot the chakra cannon.
Yes there is. Hamura's Tenseigan is literally the vessel that's used to house those cluster of byakugans. It's also referred to as such in the movie.
That doesn't prove that it's weaker lol. The very fact that Base Naruto destroyed the vessel and BSM Naruto was scuffling with TSM Toneri, before one shotting him, directly disproves your argument.
How is that a question for me to answer. You can see them in the jutsu getting blown away, they just got sent to different locations. If they weren't in the jutsu they wouldn't have been blown away in the first place, you're just being incredulous.
Answered above.
That doesn't mean anything lol. Characters can still be surprised even after knowing a fact, especially when it ruins all of their plans.
Huh? No, it depends on how controversial the actual CRT is, this isn't controversial enough to warrant 3 staff members.
Yeah because you made 5 different Hinata crts and the ones who disagreed got tired of you spamming them.
It's relevant because if she tried running away they'd chase after her or alarm Toneri???
You cannot do that even if all the staff members agreed with the downgrade there would need to discuss and agree on what would be written thereyou cannot create whatever you want thats not allowed
These are the point that never got addressed by the staff members who disagreed.Alright! Another day, new solutions. As I promised, I will tackle every single point that heads to the direction of downgrades for Hinata and explain why they make absolutely no sense. I rewatched the entire movie again and have a bit of a different/new opinion on this entire matter after consulting someone who's very knowledgeable on Hinata's scaling. Firstly, let's start with the basics.
Did Hinata actually receive Hamura's chakra amp, or was it simply just her bloodline as a Hyuga member being referenced under Hamura?
In The Last: Naruto The Movie's dub and sub, Hinata used the word "Hamura's bloodline" and "Hamura's chakra" at two different times, implying that they both meant two different things, which is supported by the fact that she actually performed different things with the words she described them.
When she used the word "Hamura's bloodline," she was explaining to Naruto how not just anyone could touch the Tenseigan orb because it had a curse sealed on it. Only someone with Hamura's bloodline could touch it.
On the other hand, when she used the word "Hamura's chakra," she had just finished replenishing Naruto's chakra, which surprised Toneri, which in turn made him ask her how and why she was able to do that, then she replied, It's because...Hamura's chakra flows within me too."
If you paid close attention to the movie, you would realize that Toneri knew Hinata was immune to the Tenseigan because she had the bloodline limit to destroy the Tenseigan without getting cursed by the jutsu which is why he had his puppet guards keep a close watch on her so that she wouldn't make any move. But what Toneri didn't know was that Hinata had met Hamura, who bestowed his chakra onto her. That is why he was surprised and baffled as to how and why Hinata was able to refill Naruto's chakra reserves. Toneri wasn't surprised that Hinata could stop the Tenseigan from extracting Naruto's chakra reserves. He already knew she could do that when the Tenseigan energy vessel got destroyed. Instead, Toneri was surprised that Hinata somehow had enough chakra to replenish Naruto's reserves, which he never knew she could do.
What does this imply?
This implies that her failure to destroy the Tenseigan by herself at that moment she claimed she had the bloodline limit to touch the Tenseigan doesn't downscale her later feat of replenishing Naruto's entire reserves when she stated she had the chakra of Hamura. She used both words at two different times, for two different purposes.
This also implies that she does indeed have the bloodline limit of Hamura as a Hyuga clan member, while at the same time, she obtained the chakra of Hamura during her encounter with Hamura.
Now that we've got that out of the way let's move to the next question.
Was Naruto's chakra really low enough for us to consider Hinata replenishing him as something significant?
When Toneri was absorbing BSM Naruto's chakra, Naruto made a statement that Toneri was absorbing all of his chakra. A few seconds later, the Tenseigan stopped absorbing Naruto's chakra, and we see Naruto kneel on the ground, shaking, trembling and visibly weakened in base form. This means the Tenseigan had successfully absorbed all of SM Naruto + half Kurama's chakra till the point he had to kneel on the ground panting really hard. This behaviour is something that Naruto had done before in the war arc. In the war arc, he started panting hard which Madara noticed and claimed that he had reached his limit because Naruto had expended all his chakra reserves due to him carrying the entire shinobi alliance with his kyuubi chakra. The way Naruto knelt and acted was completely identical to how Naruto acted in The Last. To better support my argument, Sakura specifically stated that it was time for Naruto to recover as he still stayed in that same position, visibly exhausted as everyone rallied round to protect Naruto has he had run out of chakra. Moments later, we see Kurama amassing chakra in that position where he joins his palm together which indicates that Kurama was indeed empty on chakra thus needing quite some time to build more chakra as Minato takes over in place of Naruto. And we know it takes quite some time for Kurama to mould chakra for Naruto to re-enter his KCM mode which is why Yang Kurama asked Yin Kurama to lend him some chakra as it was taking too long for him to fully replenish Naruto on time.
All these proves that Naruto in The Last was completely out of chakra both in his base form, and with Kurama's chakra supply based on similar incidents that happened in the war arc. He acted even worse in The last. He acted more exhausted in base form than he did in the war arc. So for Hinata to completely replenish him and take him back to Bijuu Sage Mode(not just KCM2), it shows how significant her chakra supply was to Naruto.
Momoshiki also absorbed Naruto's chakra, and he reacted to the pain similarly as he did in The Last. He also couldn't free himself from the Shinju tree. Yet he could still jump back into SPSM the moment the Kages freed him from the Shinju tree. Doesn't this prove that Naruto doesn't necessarily need to be empty on chakra to react to his chakra being absorbed in pain and agony?
Shadowbokunohero made this statement as a counter to Toneri absorbing all of Naruto's chakra based on how exhausted and gassed out Naruto was. But this didn't really prove anything. Instead, it created an unnecessary circular argument.
It's quite illogical to compare Momoshiki's absorption to Toneri's for multiple reasons.
With all these facts, it's very clear that you can't use Momoshiki's situation/scenario to dismiss Toneri absorbing all of Naruto's chakra.
- Toneri only needed to absorb Bijuu Sage Mode Naruto's chakra(half Kurama) along with the six paths chakra inside him because the other half of Kurama(Yin Kurama) was busy fighting Hamura's Golem. In contrast, Momoshiki needed to absorb Naruto's entire chakra reserves, including full Kurama. In order words, Momoshiki needed to absorb more chakra from Naruto which would take more time than Toneri did since he only had to absorb half Kurama's chakra.
- Naruto was already physically exhausted from absorbing Momoshiki's entire bijuudama in the village. That was the reason Momoshiki and Kinshiki were able to capture Naruto in the first place. And immediately they brought him to that dimension, Momoshiki proceeded to start absorbing his chakra which would obviously make Naruto suffer even more from physical strain. Meanwhile, against Toneri, Naruto wasn't physically exhausted, nor was he chakra exhausted prior to Toneri absorbing his entire chakra. He was completely fine. But after Toneri completely absorbs his chakra, we see him on the ground struggling to keep himself together.
- Toneri's absorption is way faster and more powerful than Momoshiki's absorption. Not only did Toneri absorb base Naruto's chakra+sage mode chakra+half Kurama chakra under seconds compared to Momoshiki, who's been absorbing half Kurama's chakra for quite a long while, but Toneri's absorption power was ridiculously too powerful that it started absorbing the sun's energy passively which is a level of absorption power Momoshiki's rinnegan never showed unless you try using the novel statements where it's stated that he absorbed a star. But we don't accept statements from the novel for obvious reasons.
- Lastly, it's very obvious that Naruto could fight Momoshiki despite getting his chakra absorbed only because Momoshiki failed to absorb all of his chakra. Naruto still had 50% Kurama intact along with his six paths chakra, unlike in The Last where Toneri absorbed all the chakra Naruto had at that moment.
Even if Hinata refilled all of BSM Naruto's chakra, how does that boost her AP to Low 5B, possibly 5B?
It's accepted on this wiki that Chakra amount+Potency/control=AP. I kindly advise you all to read it. And in this link, it's directly referenced how Hinata's air palm increased her AP based on Kurama's chakra amp
We know how much weaker Hinata's regular air palms are compared to how it was when it got amped by Kurama's chakra. This indicates a direct correlation as to how an increase in chakra reserves as well as its potency and control could drastically increase the AP of a character, especially in Hinata's case as shown.
So for her to be capable of replenishing BSM Naruto's entire reserves and taking him back to BSM mode means her chakra amount+Potency=AP and thus would be scaled to BSM Naruto, who is Low 5B, possibly 5B in AP. Obviously, this shouldn't mean that she's capable of contending with BSM Naruto in combat because she lacks the speed, versatility, and some other things that Naruto has. But she does have the AP and durability (2) of BSM Naruto.
And moreover, Hinata is not the only Naruto character on this website that is scaled to a certain tier based on chakra+potency=AP. Hashirama is also scaled using the same method.
Miscellaneous
That said, these are all my arguments supporting The Last Hinata remaining in tier Low 5B, possibly 5B. Please, if anyone wants to reply, please don't act delusional like the OP who hurled only insults at me without using proper logic to even address his or my points due to his lack of proper reading comprehension. And please, do not derail. Thank you.
- Kishimoto worked on the movie, changed and added some of the contents in the movie's script that never made it to the novel(which he had no involvement in). It was stated that Kishimoto made the editors edit the movie's original script so many times that they got pissed at him.
- This is proven as the entire part of the movie where Toneri absorbed Naruto's chakra with the green orb, and when Hinata touched and gave Naruto her chakra never happened in the novel. Instead, it jumped from Naruto, defeating Toneri with a punch, to Toneri absorbing energy from the sun. That means Kishimoto added this entire part in the movie as opposed to what the original scriptwriter in the novel did.
- And since the movie had Kishimoto's direct supervision over the plot as well as his edits in contrast to the novel, whatever happens in the movie that is quite different from the novel, or that wasn't included in the novel doesn't make it insignificant. In fact, it proves that the movie holds more of a greater canonicity than the novel since Kishimoto personally added new ideas in it.
Do you want to make a new thread? Or should you ask the OP to do a new one?Your points weren't new you just said the same thing you said before. If you'd like reply to tracer and shadow and ask them if they've changed their minds.
As for Suigetsu, yeah we should probably just make a new CRT instead of using this one, I didn't even notice the OP didn't even say what her AP would be all he said is that she should be downgraded lol
I can make it but give me some time cause I'm not home atm
Like I said if you believe what you said was different from what you've argued prior, then reply to them and ask them if they've changed their mind
Some were new, and some were better elaborated on.
What's the crt based on? That Hinata's AP justification should remain the 5B? Or it shouldn't? Who's going to make it?As for Suigetsu, yeah we should probably just make a new CRT instead of using this one, I didn't even notice the OP didn't even say what her AP would be all he said is that she should be downgraded lol
Toneri doesn't know Hinata met Hamura. But he still considered her enough of a threat that he had to prevent her from going near the Tenseigan every time.
Yes. The orb lasted enough for Hinata to regain consciousness and still not be able to even do basic ninja activities properly at the beginning of the movie. The orb was also effective enough that Hinata was unable to movie from Toneri's wall frame. And every time that orb is used, Hinata either almost passes out from it or her entire body weakens for some minutes after it wears off.
Exactly
I have no idea. The main fact they are hung up on is that she failed to destroy the tenseigan but that was a weakened Hinata who just recovered from the orbs seconds ago. The effects of the orb doesn't wear off immediately. It takes quite a while.
I think there is no point in continue the discussion here so we should just wait you can copy paste your argumetns for the new thread that will be made if you will.
It's up to debate whether she replenished it or she nullified his absorption because she has the power to nullify the Tenseigans absorption via Hamura's Chakra.
Will do. Just give me about an hour ish then I'll be able to
