The King wants his throne back (Ikki vs Jin Mo-Ri Redux) Grace

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

Ittou Shura is his go to ability like all blazers use their abilities early and Ikki is no different. It really just depends on the situation and opponent. If he believes the opponent is serious which he can see through observation of his body movements and stance then he will use it seriously.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Speaking of saigeki, he does some nasty shenanigans with Saigeki against a dude later on. As in he does the saigeki motion, then lunches the saigeki, but only the sword, then uses a string to pull the sword back and lunches again. The end result it makes people see things they shouldn't. It works against people with good info analysis best, because due to the analysis they expect ikki to lunch forward when he doesn't and needless to say the sword throw is immensly faster than the normal saigeki which is already really fast.

 

[PsychoWarper]

If only Jin could use his 250,000x stat amp

 

[Firephoenixearl]

If only Jin could use his 250,000x stat amp

Oh well, if we go by that.

If only Ikki was allowed to use his conceptual death inducement

 

[Sir_Ovens]

A 2x advantage that lasts a second is nothing compared to an 8x speed boost that lasts at leasts a couple of minutes. Plus we are severely underestimating how much of a beating Mori can take without going down. He can still hit at full strength after he is impaled, dying and incredibly fatigued all at the same time. Draining his stamina means jack if it doesn't outright kill him.

Plus, Ikki can't recover from a meridian point attack. Unless he's somehow divine enough to perform Na Bong-Chim acupuncture, he can't copy it.

 

[Blahblah9755]

Characters who can learn almost any technique on sight, or even without having seen it(including things that took some of the world's greatest geniuses (who can also learn other people's techniques on sight) their entire life to learn) struggle to learn even the basics of a lesser version of Re-Taekwondo over the course of a month. Most of Jin's best copied stuff like full contact karate and the acupuncture are just as hard to learn. Ikki simply isn't gonna be able to copy this stuff unless he has absurd feats for his technique mimicry working for stuff that super high end technique mimicry users can't mimic.

Additionally, Jin's so adaptive and hard to read and predict that even someone actively reading his mind to predict his actions was unable to do so.

Ikki's precog is based on understanding the opponent's fighting style and mindset, but it's unlikely he has the skill to understand Re Taekwondo, and Jin's mind Set is too adaptive to be predicted even by people directly reading it, thusI'm not sure perfect vision would even work here.

 

[Dienomite22]

@Blackcurrant91

Jin constantly reacted to opponents far superior than him in speed,strength and durability and landed counter blows on them (though he was damaged in the process in some of these cases) he did this like 4 or 5 times.

@EmperorRorepme

Then that should work on Jin, though it won't likely cut but it will probably damage Jin alot.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

A 2x advantage that lasts a second is nothing compared to an 8x speed boost that lasts at leasts a couple of minutes. Plus we are severely underestimating how much of a beating Mori can take without going down. He can still hit at full strength after he is impaled, dying and incredibly fatigued all at the same time. Draining his stamina means jack if it doesn't outright kill him.
Plus, Ikki can't recover from a meridian point attack. Unless he's somehow divine enough to perform Na Bong-Chim acupuncture, he can't copy it.

His x2 advantage lasts 1 minute. He can amp to x100 using Rasetsu which lasts for 1 second.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

'Ikki's precog is based on understanding the opponent's fighting style and mindset, but it's unlikely he has the skill to understand Re Taekwondo, and Jin's mind Set is too adaptive to be predicted even by people directly reading it'

Only during his fight with Satan could he do this.

 

[Dienomite22]

A 2x advantage that lasts a second is nothing compared to an 8x speed boost that lasts at leasts a couple of minutes. Plus we are severely underestimating how much of a beating Mori can take without going down. He can still hit at full strength after he is impaled, dying and incredibly fatigued all at the same time. Draining his stamina means jack if it doesn't outright kill him.
Plus, Ikki can't recover from a meridian point attack. Unless he's somehow divine enough to perform Na Bong-Chim acupuncture, he can't copy it.

Ikki's go to boost is x10 and last a minute apparently, his oh shit button is 100x boost but last a second

 

[Blackcurrant91]

no one is arguing Ikki wins via technique mimicry.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

@Blackcurrant91
Jin constantly reacted to opponents far superior than him in speed,strength and durability and landed counter blows on them (though he was damaged in the process in some of these cases) he did this like 4 or 5 times.

@EmperorRorepme

Then that should work on Jin, though it won't likely cut but it will probably damage Jin alot.

Ok ikki's attacks are still invisible (they exceed dynamic vision), can create afterimages and it's an absolute 1 shot due to Phantom Form on top of it. Why are you even arguing with 2x advantage Ikki can't land a hit? A hit is all he needs cus as i said, it will either invalidate his limbs or just 1 shot him. Either is gg, as without 1 limb don't even try to say Ikki won't take the advantage.

It will cut cus it ignores physical damage.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

@Ovens

It last a minute not a second. His second stat amp is 100x not 10x. I'd say a minute is more than enough for Ikki to use a secret sword and win.

Ikki can also fight while having lost litres of blood, having a dozen arrows within him including some organs and also fatigued. Phantom only drains stamina with minor blows. Fatal blows outright causes you to sleep. It doesn't even just "drain" stamina as Fire said earlier it stops stamina from getting to a certain place where struck. Making that place uselss.

Neither can Jin recover from being hit with a secret sword, or a fatal phantom intetsu, even the minor ones prevent stamina from reaching his arms, legs, torso or whereever the sword has touches.

Ikki has learnt a multitude of supernatural like martial arts what's so different about this one?

 

[Firephoenixearl]

He literally learned something that makes him negate friction and acceleration.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Do note that Re-Taekwondo's first weakness is that it's not as effective at close range, Ikki using a sword only boosts Mori's effectiveness at using Re-Taekwondo. Plus, Mori can read Ikki's movements if he maintains contact with him through grabbing. As seen with how he willingly allowed himslef to get impaled just to beat the crap out of Jegal, what's stopping him from turning off his pain in favour of getting stabbed by Ikki so he can land blows? This counters Ikki's speed advantage pretty quickily.

 

[Dienomite22]

@Firephoenixearl

When Jin is surprised or out sped by someone superior to him, he counters with and attack and prevents as much damage as possible right as they hit him.He did this against an old man who was about to hit his vitals with accupuncture and kicked him far enough that he survived but kinda wounded and that old man was tiers above him even in speed, he did similiar things multiple times against other stronger opponents.It's another point I'm making in upgrading early Jin and GoH character as well since it happens quite alot.

No, it's just a really hard hit

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Do note that Re-Taekwondo's first weakness is that it's not as effective at close range, Ikki using a sword only boosts Mori's effectiveness at using Re-Taekwondo. Plus, Mori can read Ikki's movements if he maintains contact with him through grabbing. As seen with how he willingly allowed himslef to get impaled just to beat the crap out of Jegal, what's stopping him from turning off his pain in favour of getting stabbed by Ikki so he can land blows? This counters Ikki's speed advantage pretty quickily.

I will tell you:

1. The speed amp stops grabs and stuff.

2. If he gets hit, it's over, it will just stamina incap him.

3. Ikki's sword doesn't stay inside people, like never has his sword been inside someone, it's literally a slash in slash out. Also there are several secret swords like Raikou that amp his speed.

That's why i said "1 shotting matters".

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

@Blah

Ikki can learn the basics of an opponents style whether it be martial arts or sword techniques just by observing them. So yes he can learn techniques that take decades upon decades to learn. He learnt a sword technique by the "Last Samurai" who was not only the greatest samurai ever but he also perfected a certain sword technique which took years upon years to perfect. Ikki learnt it by merely watching a fight where he used it. Ikki can see Jin's techniques through his body movements whether he's unpredictable or not.

 

[Dienomite22]

I don't think Ikki can copy Jin's combat martial arts techniques, the only thing martial arts wise that he was said to copy are things involving body control and strengthing nothing like fighting techniques such as taekwondo or anything like that.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

you didn't read the post that explains how Jin counters trackless step so I'll explain, Trackless step gets countered by the opponent being able to fight will unconcious or have control over their unconcious, Jin has control over his unconcious and unlocked his true unconcious by eating the sage pill, he doesn't get affected by trackless step

That is a bit off the mark. Having control over your unconsciousness does help indeed, but he'll never react in time. Ikki going with 2x more speed negating acceleration and slipping into his unconsciousness, pretty sure that will be way faster than what Jin did.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

@Ovens
Phantom only drains stamina with minor blows. Fatal blows outright causes you to sleep. It doesn't even just "drain" stamina as Fire said earlier it stops stamina from getting to a certain place where struck. Making that place uselss.

Neither can Jin recover from being hit with a secret sword, or a fatal phantom intetsu, even the minro ones prevent stamina from reaching his arms, legs, torso or whereever the sword has touches.

Ikki has learnt a multitude of supernatural like martial arts what's so different about this one?

Meridian points work on a cellular level it is healing technique that surpasses supernatural and nanotech healing. Also Nah Bong-Chim Acupuncture requires you to be divine to a certain extent. Only 4 people are capable of using it Nah Bong-Chim himself, Mori Jin, Satan, and Jade Emperor. Two of them are like the God tiers of the verse, the other two ate divine pellets. It is very well capable of restoring usage of "dead" body parts.

Again, Re-Taekwondo took someone with precognition 1 day to master 1 move perfectly. Mori still beat his ass because he had more experience and knows how to exploit other users of Re-Taekwondo. Also he can just make up moves that counter Ikki's techniques on the fly, that's literally how Mori Jin Originals are made.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

This should be closed honestly. It's such a mess.

 

[Dienomite22]

you didn't read the post that explains how Jin counters trackless step so I'll explain, Trackless step gets countered by the opponent being able to fight will unconcious or have control over their unconcious, Jin has control over his unconcious and unlocked his true unconcious by eating the sage pill, he doesn't get affected by trackless step

That is a bit off the mark. Having control over your unconsciousness does help indeed, but he'll never react in time. Ikki going with 2x more speed negating acceleration and slipping into his unconsciousness, pretty sure that will be way faster than what Jin did.

What?Trackless step is countered by the opponent having control of their unconciousness and able to fight while unconcious, that's all that's needed.Don't know where 2x speed is coming from here or how it makes a difference

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Honestly this is leaning on inconclusive.

Both characters are monsters to fight against, and both have stupidly good info analysis and counters.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

x2 speed comes from his stat amp being better. It means it's going to be really easy for him to land anything.

 

[Dienomite22]

x2 speed comes from his stat amp being better. It means it's going to be really easy for him to land anything.

I know that but I'm talking about where does it come from in the wether or not Jin will be affected by trackless step discussion.It shouldn't even matter

 

[Sir_Ovens]

2x speed advantage isn't even a big one, Mori has fought dudes faster than him before. As long as it's not blitzing levels of fast, Mori is still in it.

 

[Blahblah9755]

@Emperor people who have technique mimicry on supernatural martial arts comparable to Ikki take months to learn the basic attacks of Re-Taekwondo, that's what makes this different.

@Blaccurant,if it's a technique so difficult he can't learn it, he wouldn't be able to understand it fully, which means he wouldn't be able to predict it based on his understanding of it, causing perfect vision to fall apart.

Also, Jin was specifically not putting focus into improving his skill and mindset after unlocking his divine powers, relying too much on them, this is something explained in chapter 6, so at the time of the Satan fight, he wasn't significantly more skilled than he was before using god powers. He would have the same adaptable mindset here as he had then.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

I know that but I'm talking about where does it come from in the wether or not Jin will be affected by trackless step discussion.It shouldn't even matter

Can he control his unconsciousness in what will be effectively an instant before Ikki slashes him? I mean as i said it's 2x speed, top speed off the bat and hiding. Pretty sure Jin won't be able to tap into his unconsciousness that fast.

 

[Dienomite22]

Can he control his unconsciousness in what will be effectively an instant before Ikki slashes him? I mean as i said it's 2x speed, top speed off the bat and hiding. Pretty sure Jin won't be able to tap into his unconsciousness that fast.

It's passive, he naturally has it

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Why are we treating a 2x speed advantage as a blitz? Jeez guys, it's not like a 5x or 7x advantage.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

Literally no1 is doing that Ovens. People are arguing he couldn't react to a 2x speed advantage in combination with trackless step and accelerating to top speed instantly.

 

[Dienomite22]

Why are we treating a 2x speed advantage as a blitz? Jeez guys, it's not like a 5x or 7x advantage.

I don't even know,considering Jin reacts to people way faster than him constantly

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Why are we treating a 2x speed advantage as a blitz? Jeez guys, it's not like a 5x or 7x advantage.

It's 2x with extra speed amps from sword techniques the lack of need to accelerate and 1 shot on top of it all. Are you saying jin will have an advantage here?

 

[Blackcurrant91]

Why are we treating a 2x speed advantage as a blitz? Jeez guys, it's not like a 5x or 7x advantage.

I don't even know,considering Jin reacts to people way faster than him constantly

Lol people need to read. No one is arguing Ikki straight up blitzes. It's a combination of 3 different factors.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Why are we treating a 2x speed advantage as a blitz? Jeez guys, it's not like a 5x or 7x advantage.

I don't even know,considering Jin reacts to people way faster than him constantly

That's just reaction speed, which is equalized. Ikki could fight with stella who stat amped 6x too.

 

[Blahblah9755]

@Emperor

There are plenty of characters who can do that, mimicking a technique just by seeing it once, in GoH. Characters who learn that quickly take years to perfect their techniques beyond that, and we have characters in generation X who would be able to learn all of that on sight. Those characters in generation X take the equivalent of months to learn even imperfect versions of the basics of re-taekwondo, because it's such a ridiculously difficult martial art to fully understand and use.

Unless Ikki can mimic stuff that are too difficult for genius technique mimicry users to mimic, he won't be able to mimic or predict Jin's fighting.

 

[Dienomite22]

Lol people need to read. No one is arguing Ikki straight up blitzes. It's a combination of 3 different factors.

Well the 3 different factors were already argued against.

Precog isn't a factor because Ikki can't learn Jin's Renewal in this amount of time, Ikki's current info analysis isn't good enough to compensate here as Blah blah said

Speed isn't a factor because well you already know.

Accelerate basically the same reason as speed

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Let's just say for posterity that Jin lands a Meridian point, what's Ikki's answer to that? Jin can look at a person and see their weak points, if he hits Ikki once, it's game over.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

You can still precog/analyse something that is to complex for you to mimic instantly.

Speed absolutely is a factor when the attack comes almost instantly. Not to mention the fact that Ikki can stat amp to x100 and do a town level attack at light speed.