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The King wants his throne back (Ikki vs Jin Mo-Ri Redux) Grace

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Uh no. He was infected, he just wasn't able to be controlled.

I've given you skill feats. Oven has given you skill feats. If those don't count then nothing you or Earl have posted counts either.
 
Trackless step isn't that much of a problem for Jin if Jin can react and counter unexpected/undodgeable/unknown attacks against himself, even an attack that struck his nerves didn't prevent him from countering it the instant it hit him and besides he copies and develop counters for things he's affected by martial arts,weapon or body technique wise so he would learn via that if anything,also Jin ate the sage pill which can only be consumed by those who have control of their subconcious which is what Trackless step is weak against giving Jin the ability to counter it.
 
Ok they both have 1 shot attacks but Ikki's is still most likely to work because of Phantom and Trackless Step.

Ikki can literally do the same thing. He can deflect attack that would oneshot him constantly. Ikki can fight whilst heavily injured too. If the ability only affects the place touched than he will use his final stat amp and end the fight.

I've seen the skill feats they're just similar to Ikki's not anything special or insane.

He wasn't fully turned to a zombie was he?

@Psycho

That's all I've seen from Jin. Copying skills and enhancing them same as Ikki. Fighting people on the same level cool Ikki does that too. Jin still can't counter Trackless Step or Phantom Blade.
 
No. Jin's is more likely to work since Jin is probably going to open with an 8x amp which lets him completely rofl all over Ikki,

Jin does all of those as well. Not sure what you mean by the last bit at all though.

So Ikki has fought constantly for thousands of years against comparable opponents? Where was this when it was needed?

Not sure why that's relevant. Being touched by a zombie was enough to infect everyone else.
 
Trackless Step is an issue because he won't react until Ikki stops using it. Which key does he have control of his subcoinciousness and is it passive or does he have to focus on it?
 
EmperorRorepme said:
Ok they both have 1 shot attacks but Ikki's is still most likely to work because of Phantom and Trackless Step.
Ikki can literally do the same thing. He can deflect attack that would oneshot him constantly. Ikki can fight whilst heavily injured too. If the ability only affects the place touched than he will use his final stat amp and end the fight.

I've seen the skill feats they're just similar to Ikki's not anything special or insane.

He wasn't fully turned to a zombie was he?

@Psycho

That's all I've seen from Jin. Copying skills and enhancing them same as Ikki. Fighting people on the same level cool Ikki does that too. Jin still can't counter Trackless Step or Phantom Blade.
Click to expand...
Ikki hasnt constantly fought an army of comarable fighters to himself for 1000+ years

and Dienomite just brought up a potential counter to Trackless Step.
 
EmperorRorepme said:
Trackless Step is an issue because he won't react until Ikki stops using it. Which key does he have control of his subcoinciousness and is it passive or does he have to focus on it?
Click to expand...
We've literally gone over this, it doesn't work against Jin. This key is after he ate the Sage Pill i think.
 
EmperorRorepme said:
Trackless Step is an issue because he won't react until Ikki stops using it. Which key does he have control of his subcoinciousness and is it passive or does he have to focus on it?
Click to expand...
This key and the one before, he ate the sage pill early on and it requires the person to be able to control their subconcious to survive eating it and it boost that subconcious power.It's passive
 
I've read the arguments so far, and I'm leaning more towards Jin at the moment. Can change but for now, Jin FRA.
 
Ikki opens with Trackless Step so stat amp is useless because he cannot see where Ikki is. Ikki than see's he cannot see Jin clearly and stat amps.

I mean if Jin hits him with his nerve attack if it doesn't affect his whole body than he can still fight and than use Ittou Rasetsu.

He doesn't need to. We're going by skill feats and what skill feats come from that?

I'm saying the guy controls zombies. If he's infected but doesn't turn into a zombie it's irrelevant.
 
I'm pretty sure not seeing Ikki with trackless step is countered by acupuncture since he increases his speed, which includes reaction speed. He would move much faster than Ikki and can spam AoE attacks around him.

His kicks disturb air flow anyway and can damage in an area around him like Daewi's Fist of Black Turtle.
 
Except that Trackless Step has been shown to not work. Plus the rhythm stuff it uses to function would be messed up by Jin suddenly being 8x faster.

Acupuncture works on a level that not even nanobots that could heal terminal illnesses could fix. This is assuming that Jin doesn't just gib Ikki.

My entire point is that Jin's skill was enough to keep him alive through those thousands of years. Ikki doesn't have any feats even remotely comparable to my knowledge.

He was infected though.
 
Also I just want to say that if anyone calls bullshit on Jin's capabilities I can literally pull up scans.
 
Both sides can copy each others martial prowess so CQC skill is the same. Does Jin has any experience with blades to copy it? Ikki has been shown to fight against faster opponents with overwhelming range with skill.

That doesn't matter. If it doesn't incap his whole body than Ikki can still fight. After an attack like that he would just stat amp and blitz with Phantom. Ikki can deal with attacks that can oneshot him anyway by just deflecting it.

You're exaggerating that feat because fighting for thousands of years that doesn't tell us about his skill, just experience and his actual skill feats like copying other people are exactly the same as Ikki's so it undermines that a lot.
 
Jin has copied sword skills and used them with his hands and Yeoui later on. Jin constantly fights people who are often stronger and faster and still beats them through skill.

Jin would most likely hit several pressure points, since he does so when he used it in-universe. Again Jin one-shots when boosted (i think) and Ikki almost definitely can't deflect attacks that much faster than him.

You're exaggerating Ikki's feats because every anime/isekai protag ever does this exact same shit. See how easy it is to make unfounded accusations? Jin still constantly walks all over people who have spent decades to their entire lives practicing their abilities and martial arts if that helps. Experience is still a factor and you can't just ignore it.
 
Ikki has done it multiple times to the point where his opponent is seemingly using 8 blades and attacking from different angles. His opponent had a much higher reaction speed at that point. So yes Ikki can fight faster opponents.

That still doesn't completely incap him he then stat amps and slashes. Ikki has fought with many invisible arrows and probably losing liters of blood. He probablt could one shot with any of his secret sword techniques.

I'm not exaggerating them in the slighest and typing them out as they've been stated. Ok but Ikki can copy martial arts which takes lifetimes to master and he improves them too. All I'm saying is that what we've seen i.e their actual skill feats are similar so the experience doesn't mean squat.
 
Fighting an army where they are all comparable to you for 1000+ years is a skill feat not just experience.
 
Ok. That's probably above anything Jin has dealt with, but when is opponent is outright 8x faster than him and also used to dealing with fast opponents i don't see how he can do much.

When a single poke incaps an entire limb, several pokes are more than enough to incap. Also refer to above.

My point was that you have no reason to assume that experience is worthless here. Jin literally does the same thing all the time, like when he copied Dae-Wi's attacks and instantly improved them to the point that the former couldn't deal with them anymore. That's like saying that if someone was suddenly given all the martial arts experience in the world and immediately sent into a fight they'd do exactly as well as someone who was given time to acclimate and experiment.
 
Experience matters but without feats to back it up it's nothing. Ikki outdoes jin's feats from what you've mentioned so yeah.

Ikki can copy the acupuncture.

And guys guys. Ikki will literally go 100x all stats. Are we really counting 8x as a big deal?

Stella stat amps like 6x normally yet ikki could still use trackless step. Stat amp won't do much.

@Psycho

Sounds like telepathy doesn't it? It's just precog via skill. Ikki can also negate friction, sound and energy spent which literally defies the laws of physics. And a lot more he can do.
 
Except we literally do have feats. No, they're actually rather similar in terms of feats.

By the time he does and is able to use it it'll be way too late.

Except that the 100x boost basically kills him afterward and is ooc from what i remember. The 8x is a big deal because Jin immediately goes for it while Ikki is just kinda there.

Trackless Step isn't an argument anymore. Try again.
 
Ikki outdid the feats of precog, copy, info analysis and more.

The 100x boost has been used 4 times. And 3 of those times it has been an opening move. But with precog, info analysis and senses on ikki's level it's easy to know when to use it. And ittou shura is in character. And 1.2x boost means a lot when you factor in the range advantage and the fact that ikki blocking getting blocked or even grazing jin. Will turn the tide of the fight.

Why? Trackless step works because your mind normally doesn't perceive useless things. Ikki becomes an useless thing. So my question here is.: Are you really saying that because he resisted mind control his mind doesn't have an unconsciousness/ doesn't perceive anything as useless? Because boi the logic gap, i love how as soon as the word mind came up it's like yeah resistance, no it doesn't work by resistance because it is not affecting your mind. Your mind has this weakness not up perceive useless things and he abuses that. He never affects you, he only affects himself. This is going into the same kind of stuff as "resisting misogi gaining infinite speed".
 
PsychoWarper said:
Fighting an army where they are all comparable to you for 1000+ years is a skill feat not just experience.
Click to expand...
Ikki fought and won vs 3 exact clones of his if that helps. But the army thing is not a quantifiable feat. It's a skill difference showing.
 
So Ikki did those feats and they were used by you as examples but he did better ones? Why didn't you just show those then?

So what is his opening Move? Phantom Blade, Ittou Shura, or Ittou Rasetsu? You've argued for all three.

Because it's either perception hax, which is a subpower of mind hax which Jin resists, or it has something to do with the subconscious, like you explained it as, which doesn't work because Jin can control his subconscious. I called it a resistance because it is affecting the mind. You are making the mind do something that it shouldn't. That is ******* mind hax and anyone will tell you this. Even if this wasn't the case Jin keeps track of everything he can in a fight because he knows it'll mean something. Nice false equivalence, because Trackless Step doesn't do anything directly to Ikki.
 
Well, Jin fought Fei Long who was naturally stronger than him at the time and was said to be extremely skilled.Fei Long created 100 perfect copies of himself and Jin somehow one shotted all of them though I don't know if that's saying much regarding technique or skills
 
The feats I mentioned outdo the feats you did in those departments.

Phantom blade is not a move it's a weapon. Ittou forms are a toss up because he decides using his precog, senses, info analysis, IQ etc to decide the best option. He has opened with both on occasions.

It's not perception hax. It seems like it but it doesn't manipulate your perception. He's not affecting the mind, he's not making it do duh it shouldn't. The mind does that by default. Think of this. Let's say your eyes can see apples but not lemons for whatever reason. Ikki normally is an apple which you can see, with trackless step he becomes a lemon which you can't see. He's not manipulating your eyes he's just turning into sth you can't see. Same here, ikki's turning into something useless which the brain by default doesn't perceive. He's not using mind hax neither is he making the brain do sth it shouldn't do. The brain already does that.
 
Dienomite22 said:
Well, Jin fought Fei Long who was naturally stronger than him at the time and was said to be extremely skilled.Fei Long created 100 perfect copies of himself and Jin somehow one shotted all of them though I don't know if that's saying much regarding technique or skills
Click to expand...
It's saying that jin is more skilled than fei in overall combat. It doesn't show exactly how skilled jin is, just the difference being great.

Example ikki toying with an entire country is a feat sure, but it doesn't show how skilled ikki is, just shows he's far more skilled than those soldiers.
 
Has Ikki ever dodged attacks coming from within his own body?

It's an attack with a weapon but semantics. If this was the case you should've said so earlier.

"It works like perception hax, acts like perception hax, and does stuff that perception hax doesn but it's not perception hax."

k

He is affecting your mind. He is making your mind not notice him, which is manipulating a mind, ergo mind hax. That's still just perception hax. Literally nothing about what this ability is is any different from perception hax.
 
I will say yes, he did sth like that, but I need the actual scan first.

Wait you mean phantom form? It's not an attack. It's a literal form. Ikki's sword can be summoned in material form or phantom form. Material does physical dmg , phantom does the thing we discussed.

Ugh. So if ikki hides in your blind spots to avoid detection, that's perception hax too?
 
I can wait

I knew that it was his sword. I thought that he opened by attacking with it in Phantom Form.

No? Nice strawman but literally no one considers that perception hax because it isn't. Ikki isn't hiding here, he is outright messing with your mind to make himself invisible.
 
Alright guys, let's chill out a little. No need to throw passive aggressive comments at each other.
 
No I mean scan from you to jin dodging that. I need to see the actual feat first before saying whether ikki can do it or not. So I am waiting.

He does use phantom form rather than material form in character. But that is just the type of the sword. I am not getting your point here.

Exactly, it's not because the blind spots exist. He's not manipulating anything, he's just entering spots in your vision where you can't see. Same thing here, he's becoming useless so that your mind won't perceive him. Not manipulating your mind, the fact that your mind doesn't sense useless things is something that exists, not something he creates. He's just entering these "blind spots" your mind has. He's not interacting with your mind. Same as how he's not interacting with your eye to enter the vision blind spots.
 
Oh ok. I'll see if i can get Oven on that since i can't rn.

I thought that he opened by attacking with his sword in Phantom Form. As in, attacking the enemy with his sword.

Literally every explaination for how Trackless Step has worked that you've given me involves Ikki doing something to his opponent's mind to actually make it work. Regardless, Jin is far more perceptive than basically anyone Ikki's used it on afaik and is more than capable of realizing that something is up or even just outright seeing him anyways.
 
I don't know why Trackless Step is still being discussed here, It won't work on Jin.

What I want to know is how does the Phantom Form works.
 
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