ApiesDeathbyLazors
He/Him- 7,236
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- #81
I've been told there is no grace for unanimous wins.
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1. Kumagawa is not immune to power nullification, he's immune to power ERASURE. Minuses can't be erased, neither All Fiction nor Styles could erase another minus. So no matter what happens to the body All Fiction will still work (as it won't be erased, kind of like how it doesn't die when the body dies) and bring the body back. Kumagawa can come back from EA.LSirLancelotDuLacl said:Wait what? When have we ever gotten anything showing Kumagawa being capable of remaking himself from something on the level of Ea? Ea is an Anti World Noble Phantasm exactly because it rips up pretty much everything equally without discrimination beyond simply physically erasing them. I could understand if he had, but what death of his has ever shown him being subjected to anything but normal death without a single scrap of his body left? And even more, a death that goes beyond merely riping his body apart, because Ea is not only gonna do that.
As for what Firephoenix said, Styles ARE superior. As long as they get across to someone, they achieve things nobody else can like undoing the destruction Iihiko inflicts on the world, sealing Kumagawa and others and apparently pulling the moon to the world. You can say it's just par for the course of Medaka Box that Medaka needs to be the one left behind because of what the author is trying to set up for the plot, yet Kumagawa should be able to dispel whatever the Style of Professor Fukurou is doing to pull the Moon to the Earth, or whatever the lullaby Style is doing to regress all of their bodies to younger states, yet HE DOESN'T. Even more so, getting sealed by the little kid looking suitor was, as implied by the text, something he escaped not because All Fiction this shit, but because there was some correlation with his Bookmaker and her style. He even clarifies that the sealing thingy isn't the same, but the assumption is not wrong.
I'd say it's fair to express that All Fiction still has it's limits, and nothing is honestly convincing me that limit is above Ea. You can point to Medaka's Box plot to poke holes at what I said pertaining using All Fiction, but I am not sure how good of an excuse that is. I'd even go ahead and say Gil may have something to impede something like All Fiction due to the nature of GoB, but without precedents to cement such a claim it's pretty much baseless so I can only go for Ea making sure he stays dead.
No you didn't. There have been 8 total votes for Kumagawa. You brought up your points a while after 7 votes.LSirLancelotDuLacl said:^
Also, is it considered such still if there's a counter argument still not addressed? I raised these points before 7 votes were gathered.
1. And what's the basis of this power nullification? That Kumagawa had All Fiction in Middle School and so he can't use it as a four year old infant. His body isn't being destroyed, it was just altered temporaly to before he had the skill, and he doesn't have it. You can call it a big logical leap, but in one of the only instances we see of his body being affected beyond 'rip into pieces', All Fiction IS affected. Ea won't just be undoing his body, that's for sure. And he can pull it out fast enough considering Misogi never aims to delete someone directly, not that I remember.Firephoenixearl said:1. Kumagawa is not immune to power nullification, he's immune to power ERASURE. Minuses can't be erased, neither All Fiction nor Styles could erase another minus. So no matter what happens to the body All Fiction will still work (as it won't be erased, kind of like how it doesn't die when the body dies) and bring the body back. Kumagawa can come back from EA.
2. He did escape from a style cus Bookmaker helped him (kinda), i never said cus all fiction did anything. Also again styles are NOT superior. They didn't heal the dmg from Iihiko, they "replaced" the current Medaka with the Medaka from before she got hit by Iihiko (made her travel back in time). They didn't just erase it. Idk why u even brought the moon up there. Kumagawa said he can erase the world, it's just plot requirement that he didn't erase the moon. Kumagawa was never immune to sealing so again the fact that he was sealed by a style doesn't make any difference. Styles are NOT superior they just work differntly and do different stuff. Saying a style could bring down the moon while a minus has never done that is like saying, an abnormality could read minds while a style can't. Don't bring different topic to compare 2 powers. (scale wise doe Abnormalities are just leagues above styles, the best we've seen a style do is bring down the moon while AF could erase the universe just by not being careful).
3. No matter what u bring up EA to do, it's just not going to work due to the fact that "All Fiction doesn't die", it doesn't matter whether you kill the person (the ability should die too but nope it doesn't), erase him (which is plainly wrong since it was made painfully clear that Minuses can't be erased). AF will bring him back from both.
1. I don't get why u keep bringing up Power Nullification. It's Power Erasure that he's immune to. EA won't erase All Fiction, it's not possible for ANYTHING AT ALL to erase all fiction (unless it's a special case). That was the whole point. All Fiction is seemengly not even connected to the body as it "developed" while Kumagawa was dead. This is the end for this, no need for you to add anything more as it is basically fact that All Fiction can't be erased from existence.LSirLancelotDuLacl said:1. And what's the basis of this power nullification? That Kumagawa had All Fiction in Middle School and so he can't use it as a four year old infant. His body isn't being destroyed, it was just altered temporaly to before he had the skill, and he doesn't have it. You can call it a big logical leap, but in one of the only instances we see of his body being affected beyond 'rip into pieces', All Fiction IS affected. Ea won't just be undoing his body, that's for sure. And he can pull it out fast enough considering Misogi never aims to delete someone directly, not that I remember.
2. But that's the whole point. Obviously he had to escape somehow and All Fiction wasn't the answer. It has limits. Also, you DO rmemeber that Minuses don't follow logic in a way very similar to styles, right? As the very manga said, they defy logic and physics like Encounter, Scar Dead and Real Eater. Yet Encounter did diddle do against the destruction Iihiko caused. It's reiterated time and time again that no matter the skill or natural way, they can't heal the damage. Even Kumagawa with All Fiction. Styles have their limit, which is that the target must be able to be communicated with... but that's it. Beyond that, they still achieve things nobody else can or shows that they could. And did you not understand what I meant? Whatever Fukurou did that started pulling the moon to Earth, he seemingly couldn't erase. The moon didn't need to be erased, just the cause of it's pulling to Earth like how he erases the wounds to his body or even his death from even happening... yet he doesn't. Call it PIS or plot convenience, but previous evidence of how All Fiction reacts to Styles looks to me like it has limits, and healing from whatever will happen to him after Ea seems like a limit to me. Or healing damage from the many weapons he has like Harpe that allows the body just to regenerate normally, or cursed weapons that don't allow wounds to heal at all.
3. You only have proof that it can bring him from death, very normal deaths that normally consist of his body merely being pummeled, or venom, etc, Normal means. Not magical and conceptual means that can affect even a Servant indiscriminately.
Also, I was forgetting but... Gil as a Servant CAN eat souls, and Kumagawa doesn't revive instantly in many occasions. What's stopping him from dining on it while he's just laying down?
1. This point is not about the limits of All Fiction. It's about proving All Fiction just doesn't die. Im assuming we'r over this doe.LSirLancelotDuLacl said:1. Who even said anything about Erasing All Fiction? My whole point is that the skill has limits on what it can do, and I have seen nothing from Kumagawa that would make me think he can recover from getting obliterated from the likes of Ea.
2. Try and calm a bit. And my whole point is that All Fiction is the one that has limits. Bookmaker likely does as well but that's unrelated to this. And it still showcases a limitation. A style could pull him back to a state where he had no All Fiction, a Style sealed him and All Fiction was useless for it, he had to get out using knowledge of Bookmaker as a fellow seal. A style pulls the moon down and it's left to Medaka without any intervention from Kumagawa, plot convenience or not. Or rather, even the irreversible destruction of Iihiko is compared to a style in how it all just reverses when he is defeated, among other things, and All Fiction can't erase the effects of Iihiko's destruction either. And Ea can trounce Gods with hax like this, see where I am going?
3. No, you can't claim that. What proof do you have of All Fiction working the same on any death that is, if very messy, completely natural versus a non natural death? Are you going to say if Iihiko killed him, he'd just pop back up like normal despite evidence to the contrary?
What I am used to seeing is Kumagawa simply blitzing people and screwing them(puntastic) hard. But Bookmakering them after blitz? I remember he did that to the Style User girl in Antartica, but where else?
Im not gonna bother with the 1st point since apparently we'r discussing different things.LSirLancelotDuLacl said:1. No, that's YOUR point. My point from the start was that there's limits to what it can do, like when it couldn't erase strong feelings or things with strong feelings when it was incomplete. And there still remains nothing that points to Kumagawa being able to come back from a hard Ea to the face.
2. That's... not how that works here. The nature of metafiction in Medaka Box makes things hard to gauge, and that's why people like Ajimu aren't allowed to be in matches. We can only go from feats that have been shown, what we can extrapolate and accept from that, and arguments or statements considered reliable. This has beem discussed before. The Hero, that plot manipulation pulled by some of the characters like Medaka or Iihiko, HAS been added to their profiles. It doesn't change or alter what has or hasn't been done by a character. And what Kumagawa hasn't done showcases obvious limits.
3. Except for the fact that we know he goes to that odd classroom before he revives. His mind, his soul, something is left from which AF activates and revives him. Zenkichi also goes here because of Ajimu and ends up reviving with her help as well, so this isn't a Kumagawa only constant. Also, now you are just adding stuff. You can go see his profile, it has been decided before that we have only statements and no proof Kumagawa can do this, so as far as debates go, he's planet level at best. And you still didn't address the point of how Ea can kill literal Gods with powers on the level of world construction, event shifting, time flow manipulation, etc...
False. Kumagawa DOES screw people with normal, lethal screws since before. He did it a lot before he got bookmaker back, and he still did it more later. And of course he would use it on a clone of Ajimu, but 'tried' to use it on Medaka? At what point was this exactly, because if that wasn't hax Medaka, I think that can show nailing(heh) it in isn't 100% sure to work.
Agreed.John985 said:Someone should remove the lost of Full power Gilgamesh to Medaka, because she has no counter to EA.
Iihiko proves nothing. Iihiko is a 1 of a kind character. You can search for stronger characters who still can't acomplish that. Whatever Iihiko does...stays no matter what you do (healing, erasing, nothing works). All Fiction can't erase sth that's "immune to erasure" so ofc that's a limit. Gods or not, All Fiction will come back from EA. I don't see EA overpowering All Fiction seeing as how All Fiction is a much stronger eraser. Though if it cuts the connection between AF and Kumagawa then yes it works.LSirLancelotDuLacl said:My bad.
But my points remain the same. All Fiction has shown it's limits, like the fact it wouldn't have revived Kumagawa if Iihiko killed him. Ea is not Iihiko, but it's a Divine Construct that can bend the laws of the world and kill Gods with Hax. I strongly believe he's staying dead if that hits him.
Also because of wounds will never heal weapons and similar instruments in GoB. Anytime one of those works, there's hardly much else to do beyond destroying the weapon that did it, the user of the weapon, or just enduring the wound.
COOL, i never knew that, but damn that's cool af. Also blitz is via Time Stop, so it doesn't count as speed.Muhammedmco said:Speed equalized, and yes, it can cut the connection between Kumagawa and AF.
Idk what u meant by that, i mean what do the physical capabilities have to do with the fact that Gil will just get blitzed and have his everything sealed? Time stop won't care about city blocks and all that stuff and neither will Bookmaker. Kumagawa takes this, both in character and bloodlusted.Muhammedmco said:I know. But The difference between Kumagawa's and Gilgamesh physical AP is huge. Gilgamesh, without weapons is casual City Level and Kumagawa at his best is Multi-City Block Level.
And while Gil is arrogant as ****, he had shown that he can see through the power of his enemies by merely glancing on him. I mean, this is the guy that took down Berserker/Hercules, and rather casually. Berserker, by the way, was stated to have the ability to casually destroy mountains, and he couldn't even reach Gilgamesh, and Gilgamesh literally bypassed his invulnerability by just shooting swords and spears on him, and by merely waving his hands.