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The King of Heroes vs A Loser in Highschool

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^

Also, is it considered such still if there's a counter argument still not addressed? I raised these points before 7 votes were gathered.
 
LSirLancelotDuLacl said:
Wait what? When have we ever gotten anything showing Kumagawa being capable of remaking himself from something on the level of Ea? Ea is an Anti World Noble Phantasm exactly because it rips up pretty much everything equally without discrimination beyond simply physically erasing them. I could understand if he had, but what death of his has ever shown him being subjected to anything but normal death without a single scrap of his body left? And even more, a death that goes beyond merely riping his body apart, because Ea is not only gonna do that.
As for what Firephoenix said, Styles ARE superior. As long as they get across to someone, they achieve things nobody else can like undoing the destruction Iihiko inflicts on the world, sealing Kumagawa and others and apparently pulling the moon to the world. You can say it's just par for the course of Medaka Box that Medaka needs to be the one left behind because of what the author is trying to set up for the plot, yet Kumagawa should be able to dispel whatever the Style of Professor Fukurou is doing to pull the Moon to the Earth, or whatever the lullaby Style is doing to regress all of their bodies to younger states, yet HE DOESN'T. Even more so, getting sealed by the little kid looking suitor was, as implied by the text, something he escaped not because All Fiction this shit, but because there was some correlation with his Bookmaker and her style. He even clarifies that the sealing thingy isn't the same, but the assumption is not wrong.

I'd say it's fair to express that All Fiction still has it's limits, and nothing is honestly convincing me that limit is above Ea. You can point to Medaka's Box plot to poke holes at what I said pertaining using All Fiction, but I am not sure how good of an excuse that is. I'd even go ahead and say Gil may have something to impede something like All Fiction due to the nature of GoB, but without precedents to cement such a claim it's pretty much baseless so I can only go for Ea making sure he stays dead.
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1. Kumagawa is not immune to power nullification, he's immune to power ERASURE. Minuses can't be erased, neither All Fiction nor Styles could erase another minus. So no matter what happens to the body All Fiction will still work (as it won't be erased, kind of like how it doesn't die when the body dies) and bring the body back. Kumagawa can come back from EA.

2. He did escape from a style cus Bookmaker helped him (kinda), i never said cus all fiction did anything. Also again styles are NOT superior. They didn't heal the dmg from Iihiko, they "replaced" the current Medaka with the Medaka from before she got hit by Iihiko (made her travel back in time). They didn't just erase it. Idk why u even brought the moon up there. Kumagawa said he can erase the world, it's just plot requirement that he didn't erase the moon. Kumagawa was never immune to sealing so again the fact that he was sealed by a style doesn't make any difference. Styles are NOT superior they just work differntly and do different stuff. Saying a style could bring down the moon while a minus has never done that is like saying, an abnormality could read minds while a style can't. Don't bring different topic to compare 2 powers. (scale wise doe Abnormalities are just leagues above styles, the best we've seen a style do is bring down the moon while AF could erase the universe just by not being careful).

3. No matter what u bring up EA to do, it's just not going to work due to the fact that "All Fiction doesn't die", it doesn't matter whether you kill the person (the ability should die too but nope it doesn't), erase him (which is plainly wrong since it was made painfully clear that Minuses can't be erased). AF will bring him back from both.
 
LSirLancelotDuLacl said:
^
Also, is it considered such still if there's a counter argument still not addressed? I raised these points before 7 votes were gathered.
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No you didn't. There have been 8 total votes for Kumagawa. You brought up your points a while after 7 votes.
 
Ah, this hadn't been closed and seemed like people were still raising points, so I thought a seventh vote hadn't come in yet.
 
Firephoenixearl said:
1. Kumagawa is not immune to power nullification, he's immune to power ERASURE. Minuses can't be erased, neither All Fiction nor Styles could erase another minus. So no matter what happens to the body All Fiction will still work (as it won't be erased, kind of like how it doesn't die when the body dies) and bring the body back. Kumagawa can come back from EA.

2. He did escape from a style cus Bookmaker helped him (kinda), i never said cus all fiction did anything. Also again styles are NOT superior. They didn't heal the dmg from Iihiko, they "replaced" the current Medaka with the Medaka from before she got hit by Iihiko (made her travel back in time). They didn't just erase it. Idk why u even brought the moon up there. Kumagawa said he can erase the world, it's just plot requirement that he didn't erase the moon. Kumagawa was never immune to sealing so again the fact that he was sealed by a style doesn't make any difference. Styles are NOT superior they just work differntly and do different stuff. Saying a style could bring down the moon while a minus has never done that is like saying, an abnormality could read minds while a style can't. Don't bring different topic to compare 2 powers. (scale wise doe Abnormalities are just leagues above styles, the best we've seen a style do is bring down the moon while AF could erase the universe just by not being careful).

3. No matter what u bring up EA to do, it's just not going to work due to the fact that "All Fiction doesn't die", it doesn't matter whether you kill the person (the ability should die too but nope it doesn't), erase him (which is plainly wrong since it was made painfully clear that Minuses can't be erased). AF will bring him back from both.
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1. And what's the basis of this power nullification? That Kumagawa had All Fiction in Middle School and so he can't use it as a four year old infant. His body isn't being destroyed, it was just altered temporaly to before he had the skill, and he doesn't have it. You can call it a big logical leap, but in one of the only instances we see of his body being affected beyond 'rip into pieces', All Fiction IS affected. Ea won't just be undoing his body, that's for sure. And he can pull it out fast enough considering Misogi never aims to delete someone directly, not that I remember.

2. But that's the whole point. Obviously he had to escape somehow and All Fiction wasn't the answer. It has limits. Also, you DO rmemeber that Minuses don't follow logic in a way very similar to styles, right? As the very manga said, they defy logic and physics like Encounter, Scar Dead and Real Eater. Yet Encounter did diddle do against the destruction Iihiko caused. It's reiterated time and time again that no matter the skill or natural way, they can't heal the damage. Even Kumagawa with All Fiction. Styles have their limit, which is that the target must be able to be communicated with... but that's it. Beyond that, they still achieve things nobody else can or shows that they could. And did you not understand what I meant? Whatever Fukurou did that started pulling the moon to Earth, he seemingly couldn't erase. The moon didn't need to be erased, just the cause of it's pulling to Earth like how he erases the wounds to his body or even his death from even happening... yet he doesn't. Call it PIS or plot convenience, but previous evidence of how All Fiction reacts to Styles looks to me like it has limits, and healing from whatever will happen to him after Ea seems like a limit to me. Or healing damage from the many weapons he has like Harpe that allows the body just to regenerate normally, or cursed weapons that don't allow wounds to heal at all.

3. You only have proof that it can bring him from death, very normal deaths that normally consist of his body merely being pummeled, or venom, etc, Normal means. Not magical and conceptual means that can affect even a Servant indiscriminately.

Also, I was forgetting but... Gil as a Servant CAN eat souls, and Kumagawa doesn't revive instantly in many occasions. What's stopping him from dining on it while he's just laying down?
 
LSirLancelotDuLacl said:
1. And what's the basis of this power nullification? That Kumagawa had All Fiction in Middle School and so he can't use it as a four year old infant. His body isn't being destroyed, it was just altered temporaly to before he had the skill, and he doesn't have it. You can call it a big logical leap, but in one of the only instances we see of his body being affected beyond 'rip into pieces', All Fiction IS affected. Ea won't just be undoing his body, that's for sure. And he can pull it out fast enough considering Misogi never aims to delete someone directly, not that I remember.

2. But that's the whole point. Obviously he had to escape somehow and All Fiction wasn't the answer. It has limits. Also, you DO rmemeber that Minuses don't follow logic in a way very similar to styles, right? As the very manga said, they defy logic and physics like Encounter, Scar Dead and Real Eater. Yet Encounter did diddle do against the destruction Iihiko caused. It's reiterated time and time again that no matter the skill or natural way, they can't heal the damage. Even Kumagawa with All Fiction. Styles have their limit, which is that the target must be able to be communicated with... but that's it. Beyond that, they still achieve things nobody else can or shows that they could. And did you not understand what I meant? Whatever Fukurou did that started pulling the moon to Earth, he seemingly couldn't erase. The moon didn't need to be erased, just the cause of it's pulling to Earth like how he erases the wounds to his body or even his death from even happening... yet he doesn't. Call it PIS or plot convenience, but previous evidence of how All Fiction reacts to Styles looks to me like it has limits, and healing from whatever will happen to him after Ea seems like a limit to me. Or healing damage from the many weapons he has like Harpe that allows the body just to regenerate normally, or cursed weapons that don't allow wounds to heal at all.

3. You only have proof that it can bring him from death, very normal deaths that normally consist of his body merely being pummeled, or venom, etc, Normal means. Not magical and conceptual means that can affect even a Servant indiscriminately.

Also, I was forgetting but... Gil as a Servant CAN eat souls, and Kumagawa doesn't revive instantly in many occasions. What's stopping him from dining on it while he's just laying down?
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1. I don't get why u keep bringing up Power Nullification. It's Power Erasure that he's immune to. EA won't erase All Fiction, it's not possible for ANYTHING AT ALL to erase all fiction (unless it's a special case). That was the whole point. All Fiction is seemengly not even connected to the body as it "developed" while Kumagawa was dead. This is the end for this, no need for you to add anything more as it is basically fact that All Fiction can't be erased from existence.

2. Who gives a shit what got him out of there, both AF and BM are minuses, he didn't get out cus of AF but cus of BM, same thing, it proves that minuses can negate styles and overpower their effects. Here is an example my bud. A style didn't work on kumagawa, though bookmaker worked on a style user. There hasn't been a style to be able to overpower the effects of an abnormality, while the opposite is true.

The moon came crashing down, ok he didn't erase the cause but why didn't he just erase the moon? I mean Medaka was going to destroy the moon either way, so why not just erase it, saves effort. Don't bring up random points, the plot had Kumagawa "NOT EVEN TRY" to erase the cause or the moon don't translate it to "he couldn't".

No, none of the minuses could "counter" what Iihiko had done since none of them could time travel (except for the ones Ajimu uses) while 1 of the styles just so conviniently happened to have time travel, it's not that it negates Iihiko, his destruction is irreversable by any means. And stop bringing Iihiko to the list, he can hear therefore he can be affected by styles, since styles are not abilities but literally just words, as long as u can hear them you are affected. They work differently from abnormalities stop saying "they are stronger" cus but that logic Fukurou would be the strongest person in Medaka Box, not Ajimu. The simple fact that Bookmaker overpowered a style as a seal is more than enough proof that Abnormalities are stronger than Styles, though styles are good for a different purpose. Kind of like a Sword Vs a Spoon. The sword is obviously stronger, but u keep saying, well the spoon can be used to eat while a sword can't therefore the spoon is stronger.

3. The basics are still the same. Body becomes incapable of doing anything, but AF remains unaffected. The core doesn't change. As long as AF is ok it will bring Kumagawa back, so since EA can't erase AF it won't be able to put an end to Kumagawa.

And while Kumagawa doesn't just erase ppl out of existence instanly, he does do THAT VERY THING with bookmaker. Even if it's not required. He literally spams time erasure + bookmaker, and if bookmaker gets in, it's always a win for Kumagawa. We'r not even counting the fact that Kumagawa will just speed blitz Gil before he can even take out his EA.
 
1. Who even said anything about Erasing All Fiction? My whole point is that the skill has limits on what it can do, and I have seen nothing from Kumagawa that would make me think he can recover from getting obliterated from the likes of Ea.

2. Try and calm a bit. And my whole point is that All Fiction is the one that has limits. Bookmaker likely does as well but that's unrelated to this. And it still showcases a limitation. A style could pull him back to a state where he had no All Fiction, a Style sealed him and All Fiction was useless for it, he had to get out using knowledge of Bookmaker as a fellow seal. A style pulls the moon down and it's left to Medaka without any intervention from Kumagawa, plot convenience or not. Or rather, even the irreversible destruction of Iihiko is compared to a style in how it all just reverses when he is defeated, among other things, and All Fiction can't erase the effects of Iihiko's destruction either. And Ea can trounce Gods with hax like this, see where I am going?

3. No, you can't claim that. What proof do you have of All Fiction working the same on any death that is, if very messy, completely natural versus a non natural death? Are you going to say if Iihiko killed him, he'd just pop back up like normal despite evidence to the contrary?

What I am used to seeing is Kumagawa simply blitzing people and screwing them(puntastic) hard. But Bookmakering them after blitz? I remember he did that to the Style User girl in Antartica, but where else?
 
LSirLancelotDuLacl said:
1. Who even said anything about Erasing All Fiction? My whole point is that the skill has limits on what it can do, and I have seen nothing from Kumagawa that would make me think he can recover from getting obliterated from the likes of Ea.
2. Try and calm a bit. And my whole point is that All Fiction is the one that has limits. Bookmaker likely does as well but that's unrelated to this. And it still showcases a limitation. A style could pull him back to a state where he had no All Fiction, a Style sealed him and All Fiction was useless for it, he had to get out using knowledge of Bookmaker as a fellow seal. A style pulls the moon down and it's left to Medaka without any intervention from Kumagawa, plot convenience or not. Or rather, even the irreversible destruction of Iihiko is compared to a style in how it all just reverses when he is defeated, among other things, and All Fiction can't erase the effects of Iihiko's destruction either. And Ea can trounce Gods with hax like this, see where I am going?

3. No, you can't claim that. What proof do you have of All Fiction working the same on any death that is, if very messy, completely natural versus a non natural death? Are you going to say if Iihiko killed him, he'd just pop back up like normal despite evidence to the contrary?

What I am used to seeing is Kumagawa simply blitzing people and screwing them(puntastic) hard. But Bookmakering them after blitz? I remember he did that to the Style User girl in Antartica, but where else?
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1. This point is not about the limits of All Fiction. It's about proving All Fiction just doesn't die. Im assuming we'r over this doe.

2. This point was again not about the limits of All Fiction but to prove that styles are "not" superior to abnormalities, they just work differently.

And don't just "mention" plot convenience xD. It's literally the strongest thing in Medaka Box. Ajimu lost to Iihiko? xD pls. She can just erase the earth and let him die or launch planets at him to kill him if her abilities couldn't directly affect Iihiko. Plot is also the one who made Kumagawa lose to Zenkichi, are u gonna count that too? The moon was crashing, the lives of a lot of ppl were at stake, (not rly actually since AF can revive ppl but anyway) someone had to save everyone. That can't be acomplished by "the villain" (kumagawa is the embodiment of the villain), only the hero can save the day. Get my point? He couldn't have tried to save everyone cus it's not acceptable for the villain to save everyone.

3. It's not about proof, it's about simple logic. All Fiction is an ability that can erase cause and effect. It didn't leave Kumagawa when he died, even though it should have as Kumagawa is DEAD, he no longer has the ability, this means that All Fiction will always be inside of Kumagawa no matter the case. If dying didn't "kill all fiction", how would "erasure" which AF is "specifically immune to" possibly accomplish that? AF will just undo EA (i don't believe EA has ever shown to erase the universe or ever claimed to, correct me if im wrong doe). You can do whatever u want to the body, All Fiction will live and rebring the body back, same as how he did death. Death or Erasure are the same thing in this case as they are both things Kumagawa can erase.

To make everything we just said basically a waste of life, (about kumagawa going for bookmaker) Kumagawa does that everytime xD. He did that to the style user, did that to the student council, said he "couldn't find an opening to use bookmaker" on medaka (he tried it), instantly used it against Ajimu's copy, used it against Shiranui (though not instantly as he just wanted to play with her). And he does screw a lot more,almost every time he screws ppl he's using bookmaker, cus an ordinary screw would just kill them (i mean have u seen the size of those things, normal screws like that through the heart is instant death), but Bookmaker won't since it doesn't deal physical dmg.
 
1. No, that's YOUR point. My point from the start was that there's limits to what it can do, like when it couldn't erase strong feelings or things with strong feelings when it was incomplete. And there still remains nothing that points to Kumagawa being able to come back from a hard Ea to the face.

2. That's... not how that works here. The nature of metafiction in Medaka Box makes things hard to gauge, and that's why people like Ajimu aren't allowed to be in matches. We can only go from feats that have been shown, what we can extrapolate and accept from that, and arguments or statements considered reliable. This has beem discussed before. The Hero, that plot manipulation pulled by some of the characters like Medaka or Iihiko, HAS been added to their profiles. It doesn't change or alter what has or hasn't been done by a character. And what Kumagawa hasn't done showcases obvious limits.

3. Except for the fact that we know he goes to that odd classroom before he revives. His mind, his soul, something is left from which AF activates and revives him. Zenkichi also goes here because of Ajimu and ends up reviving with her help as well, so this isn't a Kumagawa only constant. Also, now you are just adding stuff. You can go see his profile, it has been decided before that we have only statements and no proof Kumagawa can do this, so as far as debates go, he's planet level at best. And you still didn't address the point of how Ea can kill literal Gods with powers on the level of world construction, event shifting, time flow manipulation, etc...

False. Kumagawa DOES screw people with normal, lethal screws since before. He did it a lot before he got bookmaker back, and he still did it more later. And of course he would use it on a clone of Ajimu, but 'tried' to use it on Medaka? At what point was this exactly, because if that wasn't hax Medaka, I think that can show nailing(heh) it in isn't 100% sure to work.
 
LSirLancelotDuLacl said:
1. No, that's YOUR point. My point from the start was that there's limits to what it can do, like when it couldn't erase strong feelings or things with strong feelings when it was incomplete. And there still remains nothing that points to Kumagawa being able to come back from a hard Ea to the face.
2. That's... not how that works here. The nature of metafiction in Medaka Box makes things hard to gauge, and that's why people like Ajimu aren't allowed to be in matches. We can only go from feats that have been shown, what we can extrapolate and accept from that, and arguments or statements considered reliable. This has beem discussed before. The Hero, that plot manipulation pulled by some of the characters like Medaka or Iihiko, HAS been added to their profiles. It doesn't change or alter what has or hasn't been done by a character. And what Kumagawa hasn't done showcases obvious limits.

3. Except for the fact that we know he goes to that odd classroom before he revives. His mind, his soul, something is left from which AF activates and revives him. Zenkichi also goes here because of Ajimu and ends up reviving with her help as well, so this isn't a Kumagawa only constant. Also, now you are just adding stuff. You can go see his profile, it has been decided before that we have only statements and no proof Kumagawa can do this, so as far as debates go, he's planet level at best. And you still didn't address the point of how Ea can kill literal Gods with powers on the level of world construction, event shifting, time flow manipulation, etc...

False. Kumagawa DOES screw people with normal, lethal screws since before. He did it a lot before he got bookmaker back, and he still did it more later. And of course he would use it on a clone of Ajimu, but 'tried' to use it on Medaka? At what point was this exactly, because if that wasn't hax Medaka, I think that can show nailing(heh) it in isn't 100% sure to work.
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Im not gonna bother with the 1st point since apparently we'r discussing different things.

2. Again im not trying to prove that All Fiction doesn't have limits, just saying that Styles are not stronger than abnormalities. Also u really think Ajimu can't undo death? xD She has reviving abilities. So that's not sth to bring up. Since i don't see how it contributes, to all fiction's limits.

And again, why didn't ajimu just dodge the rubber band? Why did Kumagawa lose in every match, even when not up against The Hero? Again the main point is kumagawa didn't TRY to do anything, don't translate it "oh well he couldn't do it since it's a style". He didn't try, same as how he didn't try to erase the moon (which is a simple thing for someone who can erase the universe), but the plot can't leave the villain save everyone. That's how medaka box works. Why didn't Ajimu just get out of the seal (she said she could easily get out anytime) and beat all the style users again. Cus the plot didn't allow her to, it was Medaka's role to beat everyone, same thing happens with the moon, don't translate "didn't try, cus the plot said so" into "couldn't do it".

3. Yes, a good point, All Fiction can bring the body back from the room (which you can think, it's kind of a dream, so it doesn't have physical bodies, idk why u think AF can turn dreams into reality, but let's assume that's the case). Cool point, would only work if AF was something that "revives" someone though, when AF doesn't. He makes it so that he didn't die in the first place, meaning he erases the cause of his death, there is no other way for it to work. AF won't be erased by EA (but kumagawa will), it will bring the body back, as i proved AF erases the cause of sth to bring the body back. Im not saying AF doesn't have limits, it does, it just hasn't shown any besides erasing Minuses (stuff immune to existence erasure).

"nailing". Really brah? xD. He did try to use it on Medaka (when he traded AF for BM), cus he said "i can't find an opening to use BM" (medaka was a better fighter than him so it was hard for him to pin her down). So you can say he screwed up. Also just the fact he used it against the old student council girls (after he learned that they wouldn't be useful), is more than enough proof to say that it's not out of character for Kumagawa to do it, he just decides on whether to do it right away or wait a bit. And then again does in character gil go instantly for EA?
 
Guys don't quote large walls of text please. It's a discussion rule.
 
My bad. But my points remain the same. All Fiction has shown it's limits, like the fact it wouldn't have revived Kumagawa if Iihiko killed him. Ea is not Iihiko, but it's a Divine Construct that can bend the laws of the world and kill Gods with Hax. I strongly believe he's staying dead if that hits him.

Also because of wounds will never heal weapons and similar instruments in GoB. Anytime one of those works, there's hardly much else to do beyond destroying the weapon that did it, the user of the weapon, or just enduring the wound.
 
Actually, a misconception here about Enuma Elish:

It severs the connection between someone and his powers, even connections to one's Type 8 Immortality. As shown when Angelica Ainsworth used it against Shirou in Fate/Kaleid.

If we say that Gilgamesh saw that Kumagawa posses a threat, then he can use Enuma Elish on him, severing his connection to All Fiction, giving Gilgamesh the opportunity to kill him immediately.
 
The byproduct of using Enuma Elish directly on him is gonna kill him deader than dead anyway. Either he revives after it's fired at him if it is, or he stays dead if we decide it doesn't allow him to revive.
 
Kumagawa won't be capable of reviving himself once hit by Enuma Elish. It's immposible since Enuma Elish cuts the connection between someone and his/her powers, meaning that Kumagawa won't be able to use All Fiction to revive himself.
 
Also, Kumagawa speedblitz. If i remember right, this is Full Power Gilgamesh. Kumagawa is Speed of Light by scaling to Medaka, and Gilgamesh is MFTL+ for crossing the Moon Cell in seconds and positioning himself in front of Hakuno.
 
No, this is only base Gilgamesh. But unless OP says otherwise, both are in character.

Speed is also equalized. In character is what can kill Gilgamesh most likely, if he doesn't pull Ea out fast enough.
 
If this is full power Gil then Gil stomp tho,this version of Gil is even resist the existence erasure so yeah......
 
Yes it is.

The one that made this thread said that the Gilgamesh that's fighting Kumagawa is the same Gilgamesh that lost to Medaka on a previous thread. Said Gil is 5-A, which is Full Power Gilgamesh.
 
Actually read the message by OP.

Base Gilgamesh Vs Kumagawa Misogi."

He merely mentions another debate between end of manga Medaka and Full Power Gilgamesh. Pitting Full Power Gilgamesh against Kumagawa is pretty much a stomp.
 
Oh. I see.

But either way, even if Gilgamesh didn't use Ea, he still have Power Nullification weapons on his side, and it's not like Kumagawa would be capable of nullifying its effects once it hits.
 
Encounter denies his barrage of attacks since it displaces any damage done to her elsewhere. Scar Dead can bring back the damage done to Enkidu before(cough, Heracles, cough...) to break it, without mentioning it's just a strong chain since she's not divine. And... not sure if there was anything about her dealing with Ea.
 
Someone should remove the lost of Full power Gilgamesh to Medaka, because she has no counter to EA.
 
LSirLancelotDuLacl said:
My bad.
But my points remain the same. All Fiction has shown it's limits, like the fact it wouldn't have revived Kumagawa if Iihiko killed him. Ea is not Iihiko, but it's a Divine Construct that can bend the laws of the world and kill Gods with Hax. I strongly believe he's staying dead if that hits him.

Also because of wounds will never heal weapons and similar instruments in GoB. Anytime one of those works, there's hardly much else to do beyond destroying the weapon that did it, the user of the weapon, or just enduring the wound.
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Iihiko proves nothing. Iihiko is a 1 of a kind character. You can search for stronger characters who still can't acomplish that. Whatever Iihiko does...stays no matter what you do (healing, erasing, nothing works). All Fiction can't erase sth that's "immune to erasure" so ofc that's a limit. Gods or not, All Fiction will come back from EA. I don't see EA overpowering All Fiction seeing as how All Fiction is a much stronger eraser. Though if it cuts the connection between AF and Kumagawa then yes it works.

Still Kumagawa takes this doe, Blitz + Bookmaker always works.
 
Muhammedmco said:
Speed equalized, and yes, it can cut the connection between Kumagawa and AF.
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COOL, i never knew that, but damn that's cool af. Also blitz is via Time Stop, so it doesn't count as speed.
 
I know. But The difference between Kumagawa's and Gilgamesh physical AP is huge. Gilgamesh, without weapons is casual City Level and Kumagawa at his best is Multi-City Block Level.

And while Gil is arrogant as ****, he had shown that he can see through the power of his enemies by merely glancing on him. I mean, this is the guy that took down Berserker/Hercules, and rather casually. Berserker, by the way, was stated to have the ability to casually destroy mountains, and he couldn't even reach Gilgamesh, and Gilgamesh literally bypassed his invulnerability by just shooting swords and spears on him, and by merely waving his hands.
 
Muhammedmco said:
I know. But The difference between Kumagawa's and Gilgamesh physical AP is huge. Gilgamesh, without weapons is casual City Level and Kumagawa at his best is Multi-City Block Level.
And while Gil is arrogant as ****, he had shown that he can see through the power of his enemies by merely glancing on him. I mean, this is the guy that took down Berserker/Hercules, and rather casually. Berserker, by the way, was stated to have the ability to casually destroy mountains, and he couldn't even reach Gilgamesh, and Gilgamesh literally bypassed his invulnerability by just shooting swords and spears on him, and by merely waving his hands.
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Idk what u meant by that, i mean what do the physical capabilities have to do with the fact that Gil will just get blitzed and have his everything sealed? Time stop won't care about city blocks and all that stuff and neither will Bookmaker. Kumagawa takes this, both in character and bloodlusted.
 
My point for Iihiko stays the same and valid as far as I go, anybody else can go ahead and disagree. The nature of Iihiko's power show an obvious limit for what Kumagawa can achieve with All Fiction, so do Styles, and if Gods with hax as silly or sillier than All Fiction can be ground into paste by Ea and they ain't coming back, I don't see All Fiction saving Kumagawa.

Also... I feel people apparently forget this? But Bookmaker is not instant death. Ajimu is still being her silly self while sealed by the thing, Medaka can still try and pummel Kumagawa and even develops a form based on weakening herself. Even if Bookmaker is pierced into him, Gilgamesh CAN keep fighting. And now he's likely royally pissed since he himself is getting soiled.
 
As i said if EA cuts the connection between AF and Kumagawa then he won't come back.

And bookmaker....LOL NO! Bookmaker has not ONCE shown a limit. Ajimu was sealed, Medaka was sealed (Bookmaker did his job, but the power of friendship is unbeatable amirite?, though that won't be the case with Gil, not only does Gil not own "The Hero", but even if he does the fact that Kumagawa will have both Bookmaker and AF is insta win, don't try to argue past this fact). And on Iihiko, again Bookmaker hasn't shown any limits. Iihiko just doesn't care about any power at all so it's not that Bookmaker is weak, it's more like Bookmaker falls into the category that is useless against Iihiko, or think of it like Bookmaker can't affect the dimension Iihiko is in cus ofc Bookmaker needs to hit the target. There is 1 more thing to Bookmaker, Gil will fall unconscious after the use, EVERYONE has fallen unconscious after it, besides Medaka which has the plot with her and doesn't count for anything. Don't use Medaka and Iihiko as "weaknesses", 1 had the plot and 1 is just unaffected except by the "talk no jutsu". I mean Ajimu was affected by Bookmaker and she's stated to be "all powerful" (and even without that she's far beyond Iihiko and Medaka).
 
So, who do you vote for?

Personally I vote for Gilgamesh via Ea. Also, Gilgamesh have a luck state worth of Rank A, and in the Fate series, Servants with B+ Rank or higher can survive any twist of causality hitting them, like Gae Bolg for an example. Book Maker hitting Gilgamesh won't be happening due to Gil's Luck being even higher than Arutria.
 
While reading most of this has been fun (I say most cause I did not read every text wall posted, especially when Fire and LSir were quoting each others text walls), Kumagawa has technically won this debate several times over. He got 7 votes to Gil's 0 at the start, which is enough to win without grace, but even after when Gil did start getting votes, Kumagawa always had at least a 4 vote lead for over an hour, with only 3 being needed to claim the win. And that's happened multiple times. Sorry to buzz kill here, but Kumagawa has won. Correct me if I am wrong. Please.
 
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