The Great Sisyphean Quest to Downgrade God of War ⌈Part 7⌋ [Spear of Destiny]

[Deagonx]

Power of the Fates [Spear of Destiny]​

Under the Powers and Abilities of the Spear of Destiny it reads:

Divine Magic and Power of the Fates (All abilities of the Sisters of Fate. Is able to interact with and cut through the Threads of Fate themselves and will grant all mortals freedom from the Sisters of Fate's control,[1] interacting with the Threads of Fate grants these abilities)

We need to talk about the threads of fate. The Spear of Destiny can indeed sever them, and affect people’s fates by extension, but this is merely by virtue of having access to the Loom of Fate where the threads are. A specific location Kratos only goes to once in the series.

So when Kratos stabs someone with the spear, they’re not getting their destiny obliterated on the spot. That can only happen if their string is cut, which Kratos can only do if he has access to the Loom of Fate (which, 99.99% of the time, he does not). Since the spear is merely interacting with the true mechanism required for fate manipulation (the strings of fate), giving it some kind of innate ability by extension is just silly. Anybody who survives being hit with the spear should have their fate manipulation resistance removed by extension.

There’s also the issue of how, if the spear can just do this innately, the plot of GoW 2 falls apart. Kratos’ driving motivation in GoW 2 is to seek out the Loom of Fate in order to change his fate. Kratos acquires the spear well before finding the loom; If the spear could've done this without being physically at the loom he would've simply done so.

The final nail in the coffin is that this actually contradicts primary canon (the games). In GoW 2, it's implied Kratos would be able to control the threads innately (they are, after all, just tools) with no mention of the Spear of Destiny. After defeating the Sisters of Fate, it's explained how Kratos needs to find his thread so he can access the mirrors the Fates use to control time and use it to go back to his past. When he does find his thread, he simply weaves it in such a way that it activates the mirror; At no point in this sequence of events does Kratos cut any threads, let alone with the Spear of Destiny. Since the novels are secondary canon, and they contradict the depiction shown in the games, this whole sequence of events of Kratos severing threads ought to be tossed out. This has... other consequences, but we'll get to those next time.

Soul Manipulation [Spear of Destiny]​

The justification in the profile is:

Gaia warned Kratos that if he falls to the [Spear of Destiny], his [soul] is forfeit for all eternity

If Kratos died to the Spear of Destiny, his soul would be forfeit for all eternity. That is how dying works, you die and your soul goes to Hades/the Underworld. That isn't "manipulating" a person's soul. Moreover, Gaia doesn't actually say falling to the Spear is the problem, just falling to this warrior.

Tally:
Agree: Deagonx, Firestorm808, Catzlaflame, Maverick_Zero_X
Disagree: Planck69, Theglassman12

 

[KingNanaya]

yeah, I agree with this

 

[Deagonx]

@Catzlaflame @Maverick_Zero_X @Mr. Bambu @Armorchompy @Firestorm808

 

[Firestorm808]

I agree.

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

agree

 

[Therefir]

This makes sense.

 

[Hasty12345]

OP makes sense

 

[Vietthai96]

@Catzlaflame @Maverick_Zero_X @Mr. Bambu @Armorchompy @Firestorm808

Uh........i think, eh......you should also ping @Planck69 and @Theglassman12 ??, they are verse's supporters

 

[Robo432343]

agree

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

Changes look good to me.

 

[Planck69]

Might as well make a post while I have some time I guess.

That second part is nonsensical, given that Gaia specifically warning him about just dying makes no sense (especially since he had before this point had to deal with a Titan and after this, had to deal with deadlier opponents than the Warrior of Destiny). That very scan posted specifies that it is the Spear that he shouldn't let touch him, before proceeding to point out his shade would be forfeit, the same Titan that had no issue saving his soul and helping him come back from the Underworld at that.


As for the first;

There’s also the issue of how, if the spear can just do this innately, the plot of GoW 2 falls apart. Kratos’ driving motivation in GoW 2 is to seek out the Loom of Fate in order to change his fate. Kratos acquires the spear well before finding the loom; If the spear could've done this without being physically at the loom he would've simply done so.

Already addressed this before, but he needs to be able to travel back through time to when Zeus killed him. The Spear being able to affect fate wouldn't just let him do that so I'm not sure how this makes the plot fall apart. At most, it'd just need specification that the Spear can't travel through time, something we don't agree with to start with.

So when Kratos stabs someone with the spear, they’re not getting their destiny obliterated on the spot. That can only happen if their string is cut, which Kratos can only do if he has access to the Loom of Fate (which, 99.99% of the time, he does not). Since the spear is merely interacting with the true mechanism required for fate manipulation (the strings of fate), giving it some kind of innate ability by extension is just silly. Anybody who survives being hit with the spear should have their fate manipulation resistance removed by extension.

The Spear being one of the few things that can interact with and sever fate is the core of the justification. He's not obliterating people's fates with a touch and aside from Kratos, the Sisters, and Gaia (who have said resistance due to their own reasons), no one even has a resistance the power of the Fates solely due to the Spear anyways. At most this would just mean that the justification of the Sisters resistance would follow the same logic as that of the innate magics of the other gods I suppose.

Yeah, I disagree with this as I did when it was initially posted.

 

[Deagonx]

The Spear being one of the few things that can interact with and sever fate is the core of the justification

As it is currently written on the profile, there's nothing to indicate that this ability is entirely combat inapplicable. Unless a match up includes something like "the Loom of Fate is present in the battlefield this takes place on, and the opponent's thread is on it" the fact that Kratos can cut threads of the loom doesn't mean anything at all. Instead, the Spear's profile links to the "Power of the Fates" which involves a bunch of abilities that this spear doesn't grant even if the Loom was present, since Kratos has only ever demonstrated the ability to cut threads, not fine tune them like the Fates do.

That second part is nonsensical, given that Gaia specifically warning him about just dying makes no sense (especially since he had before this point had to deal with a Titan and after this, had to deal with deadlier opponents than the Warrior of Destiny). That very scan posted specifies that it is the Spear that he shouldn't let touch him, before proceeding to point out his shade would be forfeit, the same Titan that had no issue saving his soul and helping him come back from the Underworld at that.

If it were nonsensical, she wouldn't have given him an identical warning later in the book. Gaia can't just save Kratos again. She makes it clear that if he fails this time, he's doomed.

“He is a more dangerous foe than you realize, Kratos. The Warrior of Destiny would prevent you from reaching the island and the palaces of the Sisters of Fate. You do not want to fall to him or your shade is forfeit for all eternity!”

"[Zeus] will not rest knowing you live. And when you die his brother Hades will see that your shade is tortured for all eternity. You will have no rest until you destroy him.”

By the time Gaia issues her second warning, Kratos already has the Spear. There's nothing in the first quote to suggest Gaia is saying that the spear specifically does something to souls.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Everything seems logical, I agree.

 

[Eseseso]

Might as well make a post while I have some time I guess.

That second part is nonsensical, given that Gaia specifically warning him about just dying makes no sense (especially since he had before this point had to deal with a Titan and after this, had to deal with deadlier opponents than the Warrior of Destiny). That very scan posted specifies that it is the Spear that he shouldn't let touch him, before proceeding to point out his shade would be forfeit, the same Titan that had no issue saving his soul and helping him come back from the Underworld at that.


As for the first;


Already addressed this before, but he needs to be able to travel back through time to when Zeus killed him. The Spear being able to affect fate wouldn't just let him do that so I'm not sure how this makes the plot fall apart. At most, it'd just need specification that the Spear can't travel through time, something we don't agree with to start with.


The Spear being one of the few things that can interact with and sever fate is the core of the justification. He's not obliterating people's fates with a touch and aside from Kratos, the Sisters, and Gaia (who have said resistance due to their own reasons), no one even has a resistance the power of the Fates solely due to the Spear anyways. At most this would just mean that the justification of the Sisters resistance would follow the same logic as that of the innate magics of the other gods I suppose.

Yeah, I disagree with this as I did when it was initially posted.

Planck seems to make sense

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

By the time Gaia issues her second warning, Kratos already has the Spear. There's nothing in the first quote to suggest Gaia is saying that the spear specifically does something to souls.

This is put of context entirely. Gaia is simply motivating Kratos back into his pursuit of Zeus's death, that's literally how the scene starts, even In the novel it starts with
"if you relent(give up) Zeus will not rest knowing you live. And when you die his brother Hades will see that your shade is tortured for all eternity. You will have no rest until you destroy him.”

Gaia is simply motivating Kratos. And if he relented the Titans would simply have no use for him so why would she even ressurect him in the first place when he won't even go after Zeus?

 

[Deagonx]

This is put of context entirely. Gaia is simply motivating Kratos back into his pursuit of Zeus's death, that's literally how the scene starts, even In the novel it starts with
"if you relent(give up) Zeus will not rest knowing you live. And when you die his brother Hades will see that your shade is tortured for all eternity. You will have no rest until you destroy him.”

Gaia is simply motivating Kratos. And if he relented the Titans would simply have no use for him so why would she even ressurect him in the first place when he won't even go after Zeus?

The point is that she gives him the same warning twice in different contexts (that if he dies his shade is doomed for eternity). The fact that she gives him this warning for losing to the Warrior of Destiny is not remotely enough information to conclude that his spear does anything to souls.

Moreover it's just implausible for the spear to have some unmentioned soul Power. There's a bunch about this spear in the games and books, but the only way we are told it has the ability to destroy (I'm guessing?) souls is Gaia warning him that dying to this Warrior will result in the same fate that she later says will happen if he dies regardless. The same threat Typhon also makes to Kratos.

It's just such a reach. If the spear actually had soul hax they would've just said that. This isn't good enough evidence.

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

The point is that she gives him the same warning twice in different contexts (that if he dies his shade is doomed for eternity). The fact that she gives him this warning for losing to the Warrior of Destiny is not remotely enough information to conclude that his spear does anything to souls.

Moreover it's just implausible for the spear to have some unmentioned soul Power. There's a bunch about this spear in the games and books, but the only way we are told it has the ability to destroy (I'm guessing?) souls is Gaia warning him that dying to this Warrior will result in the same fate that she later says will happen if he dies regardless. The same threat Typhon also makes to Kratos.

It's just such a reach. If the spear actually had soul hax they would've just said that. This isn't good enough evidence.

We treat the Spear of Destiny being imbued with the magic of the Fates, which in it's rawest form would have seared Kratos's soul.

And we don't get that much about the spear in most of the material, the novel is surprisingly where we get most of our information about the spear.

But I'm neutral to removing the current justification.

 

[ShionAH]

Dying = Soul Manipulation

Crazy , I agree with Deagon FRA

 

[Catzlaflame]

The soul manip does read like literary prose to me, personally, and based on the counter +
Deagon’s counter counter, I think that seems like a reasonable assumption.

The spear stuff look fine, though I’m probably not the best to evaluate that since I lack verse knowledge.

 

[ShionAH]

Deagon’s counter counter

I think thats called a "rebunk"?

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

I agree with the OP.

 

[Theglassman12]

Planck's arguments make more sense, disagree with the OP.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Bump.

 

[Deagonx]

I'll close this and apply the changes, given the tally.