The Great Odyssean Quest to Downgrade God of War ⌈Part 5⌋ [Reactive Evolution Edition!]

[Adem_Warlock69]

You'd think if Kratos could actually adapt to Heimdall, he wouldn't be required to use the spear at all

 

[Georredannea15]

So you're right about one thing, Kratos did indeed bruteforce Heimdall to death after whittling him down with the spear-- even before Heimdall ate a ground sandwich, he clearly bloodied and out of juice after getting the norse equivalent of a flashbang many times over. You can easily chalk this up to cinematics-- if not exhaustion after having his ability countered.

I'm not exaggerating when I say the spear was instrumental in defeating Heimdall. If Kratos didn't have it, he would have been destroyed plain and simple. There's even a questline over getting Draupnir (the spear) that was a key part in even trying to kill Heimdall-- and the supporting characters in the game emphasize that Kratos could not harm Heimdall without it.

Even in Phase 2 of the fight, the Spear is necessary to hit Heimdall, because that's the object that's enabling Kratos to harm him in the first place.

I think you misunderstood something. I said that the spear is important here because that's what it was made for, but if it was only the spear that allowed Kratos to hit Heimdall, he shouldn't be able to hit him with his bare hands or other equipment in any way

That is because he clearly can dismiss the spear into thin air or the spear is elsewhere so him doesn’t have any equipment in his hands is ultimately irrelevant. If memories served, the spear can been requip at anytime although that is just game mechanics, but narratively speaking, he probably have no use for the spear since it done the job. However, guess what, he literally blow up Heimdall’s arm off later on with the spear during the fight. You can literally see this at 6:41 for this video.

I don't think that's very relevant

 

[Deagonx]

but if it was only the spear that allowed Kratos to hit Heimdall, he shouldn't be able to hit him with his bare hands or other equipment in any way

The spear progressively overloads his senses, it's not the only thing that can hit him. Once Heimdall's senses are sufficiently overloaded, anything can hit him.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

I think you misunderstood something. I said that the spear is important here because that's what it was made for, but if it was only the spear that allowed Kratos to hit Heimdall, he shouldn't be able to hit him with his bare hands or other equipment in any way

I don't think that's very relevant

It kinda is. The fact he used the spear to cripple Heimdall with his arm blow off. That is the nice thing about this as the player can also been see using the spear in question during gameplay.

I already saw the scene with Kratos getting the beatdown, but it came after he destroyed one of Heimdall’s arm with the said spear and the second phase of course.

This means the spear has done its job and can still been used especially let’s not forget Heimdall was crippled by the spear.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

The spear progressively overloads his senses, it's not the only thing that can hit him. Once Heimdall's senses are sufficiently overloaded, anything can hit him.

Also to add onto this, Heimdall got crippled from Kratos blowing up his arm with the spear pre Phrase 2.

That will done the deed as well

 

[Quibster]

I think you misunderstood something. I said that the spear is important here because that's what it was made for, but if it was only the spear that allowed Kratos to hit Heimdall, he shouldn't be able to hit him with his bare hands or other equipment in any way

Heimdall's senses were overloaded after being stunned many times via Draupnir. The whole point of the spear was to interrupt his senses, and enable Kratos to attack him generally so he doesn't Ultra Instinct out of the way like a snarky little goblin.

Heimdall is also visibly stunned after we use the spear, which allowed Kratos to attack with his other weapons. This isn't exactly a narrow interpretation, since the gameplay clearly shows it to us.

 

[Georredannea15]

Dude, this is the exact same thing that's been explained multiple times. The spear cumulatively overloads Heimdall's senses. There's no reason for us to think the spear must work perfectly immediately (it's cumulative) and the point of using the spear is to overload his senses, it's never meant to be the only way you can cause damage.

I don't know why we are making a one-sided assumption.

This “overload” is something that only happens with the spear, but we can basically hit him without the spear, so if what you're saying is “these overloads was permanently affecting Heimdall, so later in the battle he was able to hit him without the spear”, I don't know... Basically that would also be an assumption because overloading is something that only happens with the spear.

If there is a spear attack, Heimdall's senses are on overloads, which is what the spear is made for. But being able to hit him without the spear is not a result of overload.

I agree that the spear is an important part of being able to hit Heimdall, but I'm trying to say that the spear is not the only reason why Kratos is able to hit Heimdall

 

[Georredannea15]

Heimdall's senses were overloaded after being stunned many times via Draupnir. The whole point of the spear was to interrupt his senses, and enable Kratos to attack him generally so he doesn't Ultra Instinct out of the way like a snarky little goblin.

Heimdall is also visibly stunned after we use the spear, which allowed Kratos to attack with his other weapons. This isn't exactly a narrow interpretation, since the gameplay clearly shows it to us.

This “overload” is something that only happens with the spear, but we can basically hit him without the spear, so if what you're saying is “these overloads was permanently affecting Heimdall, so later in the battle he was able to hit him without the spear”, I don't know... Basically that would also be an assumption because overloading is something that only happens with the spear.

 

[Quibster]

I concede!

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Kratos crippled Heindall with the spear in a cutscene by destroying his right or left arm

He make a new arm via magic shenanigans

Then once Phase 2 starts, Heimdall has been significantly weakened by the time second phase occurs especially he has to make a new arm out of Norse magic just to make up for losing his arm to the said spear.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

I concede!

Lmfao

 

[Deagonx]

If there is a spear attack, Heimdall's senses are on overloads, which is what the spear is made for. But being able to hit him without the spear is not a result of overload.

The spear cumulatively overloads his senses. His senses do not instantly go back to normal the moment you stop using the spear, which is why you're able to use any weapon after you've filled his stun meter enough times.

 

[Georredannea15]

The spear cumulatively overloads his senses. His senses do not instantly go back to normal the moment you stop using the spear, which is why you're able to use any weapon after you've filled his stun meter enough times.

Can you show me where these are mentioned in the game? For example, after Heimdall's "Red stun bar" fills up due to the spear, a cutscene occurs and immediately after this scene, Heimdall's stun bar returns to its previous state

First you say that his senses are completely and permanently overloaded, now you say that it takes a certain amount of time for him to recover from the overload, but most of this... Unfortunately, it's just supposition.

The only thing mentioned in the game is "the spear overloads his senses", but other than that, the other arguments you say are not in the game.

I ask again, why does this become a one-sided assumption?

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Can you show me where these are mentioned in the game? For example, after Heimdall's "Red stun bar" fills up due to the spear, a cutscene occurs and immediately after this scene, Heimdall's stun bar returns to its previous state

First you say that his senses are completely and permanently overloaded, now you say that it takes a certain amount of time for him to recover from the overload, but most of this... Unfortunately, it's just supposition.

The only thing mentioned in the game is "the spear overloads his senses", but other than that, the other arguments you say are not in the game.

I ask again, why does this become a one-sided assumption?

This didn’t came out of thin air as it showns in Phase 2 after his arm got blowed and got crippled by the spear.


It is a logical interpretation and assumption for this particular fight as it demonstrates how the spear is being used.

 

[Georredannea15]

This didn’t came out of thin air as it showns in Phase 2 after his arm got blowed and got crippled by the spear.


It is a logical interpretation and assumption for this particular fight as it demonstrates how the spear is being used.

Dude, Heimdall didn't even have a red stun bar after his arm is gone. There was only a health bar.

After his arm was gone, his stun bar was now out of bounds. I don't even know why you said this

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Dude, Heimdall didn't even have a red stun bar( after his arm is gone. There was only a health bar.

After his arm was gone, his stun bar was now out of bounds

And? That doesn’t mean anything. It means he has significantly weakened after he got crippled by Krato with the spears. There is no ifs nor buts about this.


It is far more reasonable to assume he got crippled and was weakened by multiple hits Kratos managed to land on Heimdal for this particular fight with the spear

 

[Georredannea15]

And? That doesn’t mean anything. It means he has significantly weakened after he got crippled by Krato with the spears. There is no ifs nor buts about this.


It is far more reasonable to assume he got crippled and was weakened by multiple hits Kratos managed to land on Heimdal for this particular fight with the spear

However, before his arm was gone, Kratos was able to hit him without spear. And then he wasn't weakened in any way, nor was he overloaded, because he hit Heimdall without spear.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

However, before his arm was severed, Kratos was able to hit him without a spear.

??? He impaled Heimdall into a stone rock with the spear in a cutscene.

 

[Georredannea15]

??? He impaled Heimdall into a stone rock with the spear in a cutscene.

Before that scene, he hit Heimdall with his bare hands.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Before that scene, he hit Heimdall with his bare hands.

Nope as I am encouraging to watch the full fight as he hit Heimdall with his bare hand after that scene I will just say.



Seriously I watched 10 minutes and he didn’t even done it till the next cutscene

 

[Georredannea15]

Nope as I am encouraging to watch the full fight as he hit Heimdall with his bare hand after that scene I will just say.



Seriously I watched 10 minutes and he didn’t even done it till the next cutscene

Dude, are you kidding me? Just look at the first time he hits Heimdall, he doesn't have spear in his hand, he doesn't have any equipment. He gives him the first blow with his bare hand

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Dude, are you kidding me? Just look at the first time he hits Heimdall, he doesn't have spear in his hand, he doesn't have any equipment. He gives him the first blow with his bare hand

??? That only happened after he hit Heimdall with the spear multiple times. You can literally see him dodging the prior hits before that happens so again, I don’t see this counterpoint being effective at all

 

[Quibster]

Dude, are you kidding me? Just look at the first time he hits Heimdall, he doesn't have spear in his hand, he doesn't have any equipment. He gives him the first blow with his bare hand

Kratos concussed Heimdall before hitting him. This allowed Kratos to hit Heimdall, barehanded because his senses were scrambled as a result of him throwing the spear at Heimdall's feet and causing it to explode in a concussive stun.

Look, I even timestamped it;

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Kratos concussed Heimdall before hitting him. This allowed Kratos to hit Heimdall, barehanded because his senses were scrambled as a result of him throwing the spear at Heimdall's feet and causing it to explode in a concussive stun.

Look, I even timestamped it;

Even Kratos say “The spear remains our best chance” due to Heimdall’s speed being a bit overwhelming

 

[Everything12]

Agree FRA.

 

[Georredannea15]

Kratos concussed Heimdall before hitting him. This allowed Kratos to hit Heimdall, barehanded because his senses were scrambled as a result of him throwing the spear at Heimdall's feet and causing it to explode in a concussive stun.

Look, I even timestamped it;

If you are talking about overloads... As I said, you need spear for this, yes, he uses the spear before, but then he just use his bare hands.

If you're claiming something like "Heimdall needs time to recover from overloads" or "This overload has permanently blunted his senses", I'd like you to prove it in-game yourself. The only thing we are told in the game is that the spear overloads, but there is no explanation or statement about how long this takes.

I don't know how many times I've said it, but I'll say it again.

The spear is his biggest chance and the most important thing, but that's not the only reason he hits Heimdall But if everyone agrees on this, just go and do it

 

[Mr. Bambu]

One feels as though the fact that he manages to strike Heimdall only after the spear overloads him leads to the conclusion that it has had some lasting effect on Heimdall. It may be that it is temporary, but at the very least it lasts long enough to defeat Heimdall. Any other interpretation with the same information is making further assumptions about the nature of the weapon and its effects.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Agree FRA.

@Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara The vote is 4-2 now, so you can get to applying this without concerns of it being too close.

@Georredannea15 @HammerStrikes219 @Quibster This has mainly turned into circular bickering. The thread's been accepted, so it would be best for you to stop.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

@Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara The vote is 4-2 now, so you can get to applying this without concerns of it being too close.

@Georredannea15 @HammerStrikes219 @Quibster This has mainly turned into circular bickering. The thread's been accepted, so it would be best for you to stop.

Very nice. Are you able to open Kratos and Zeus' pages so I can apply the edits?

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Very nice. Are you able to open Kratos and Zeus' pages so I can apply the edits?

Done.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Edits have been applied, Kratos and Zeus' pages can be locked again and this thread can be closed.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Edits have been applied, Kratos and Zeus' pages can be locked again and this thread can be closed.

When are you posting the next one?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

When are you posting the next one?

It's technically already up, but I do have another (much larger) thread locked and loaded. I can post that whenever.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

It's technically already up, but I do have another (much larger) thread locked and loaded. I can post that whenever.

When do you think whenever will be?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

When do you think whenever will be?

Whenever the first thread I linked concludes, which ought to be soon (it's quite small, and the votes are 2-0 right now).

 

[Georredannea15]

Whenever the first thread I linked concludes, which ought to be soon (it's quite small, and the votes are 2-0 right now).

Actually the other thread is small and everyone agrees with the OP, it's almost done. So you can publish the big one directly I guess.

 

[Deagonx]

Can you show me where these are mentioned in the game? For example, after Heimdall's "Red stun bar" fills up due to the spear, a cutscene occurs and immediately after this scene, Heimdall's stun bar returns to its previous state

First you say that his senses are completely and permanently overloaded, now you say that it takes a certain amount of time for him to recover from the overload, but most of this... Unfortunately, it's just supposition.

The only thing mentioned in the game is "the spear overloads his senses", but other than that, the other arguments you say are not in the game.

I ask again, why does this become a one-sided assumption?

Dude, are you kidding me? Just look at the first time he hits Heimdall, he doesn't have spear in his hand, he doesn't have any equipment. He gives him the first blow with his bare hand

You're making my point for me. The first time he hits Heimdall he doesn't use the spear, yet the spear is required to fill the stun meter. The stun meter is simply a matter of overloading Heimdall enough that physical attacks can land. Once you've filled the stun meter twice you enter the second phase of the battle where you can freely use melee attacks. This isn't because Kratos evolves to counteract Heimdalls abilities, its because the spear has done it's job.

Frankly, this is very obvious. It's not even a tough judgment call to make. But even if there were some viability, the theory of Kratos evolving wouldn't even justify a "possibly" rating given there's no direct evidence of it besides your interpretation for whats happening in the fight, which means we still would remove the ability.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

You're making my point for me. The first time he hits Heimdall he doesn't use the spear, yet the spear is required to fill the stun meter. The stun meter is simply a matter of overloading Heimdall enough that physical attacks can land. Once you've filled the stun meter twice you enter the second phase of the battle where you can freely use melee attacks. This isn't because Kratos evolves to counteract Heimdalls abilities, its because the spear has done it's job.

Frankly, this is very obvious. It's not even a tough judgment call to make. But even if there were some viability, the theory of Kratos evolving wouldn't even justify a "possibly" rating given there's no direct evidence of it besides your interpretation for whats happening in the fight, which means we still would remove the ability.

The thread has already been applied, so please close it.