The Great Odyssean Quest to Downgrade God of War ⌈Part 4⌋

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I'm regretting not calling this "The Great Sisyphean Quest to Downgrade God of War", but I think it's too late to change it. I'm also doing a few more abilities this time around, since most of them save for one are pretty straightforward.

Soul Manipulation [Hermes]

Hermes can escort souls to the Underworld. He doesn't destroy them, control them, or otherwise interact with them in a manner that could be described as "manipulation"; He merely guides them to a location.

BFR [Sisters of Fate]

The Sisters of Fate can send souls to the Underworld. By killing people. That’s what happens when people die (an event which is orchestrated by the Fates), they go to the Underworld. This isn’t BFR at all, it’s just how the afterlife works.

Transmutation & Durability Negation [Spear of Destiny]

The Spear of Destiny can turn people purple and make them explode. For starters, making a thing purple isn’t transmutation; It’s not turning their flesh to crystal, it’s not shooting a beam that turns enemies into candy, it just… makes them purple. Explosions also don’t negate durability by default, they can be tanked with sufficient durability just fine. Like, a not insubstantial number of durability feats on the site are from surviving explosions. This would also necessitate the removal of resistance to these abilities on the appropriate profiles.

Probability Manipulation & Causality Manipulation [Sisters of Fate]

Let me just post the justification and work my way down from there.

• Causality Manipulation and Probability Manipulation (The Sisters can cause war on the slightest vibration of their threads,[84] being able to create brand new possibilities on a whim[85] and being able to change the outcomes of wars.[82] They can easily create whatever outcomes they wish for their mortal and God subjects just by slight tugs and strokes on their Threads of Fate.[87] They also regularly detect vibrations in said threads and counter them with their own to produce their own desired outcome for their subjects.[90] Their tinkering with Iris's fate caused dissension on Olympus as a mere side-effect.[91] Disrupting the Loom of Fate would free mankind from their bondage to Fate and Destiny[89])

The easy debunk is that everything described here is just fate manipulation, and only resembles probability and causality manipulation due to these abilities sharing some surface level similarities (such as the ability to cause different events and outcomes through indirect manipulation). The more difficult debunk is taking these statements one at a time, which I will do right now.

The Sisters can cause war on the slightest vibration of their threads,[84]

Causing war does not require altering the past, especially not in this case, where Atropos plots out a series of events that would occur in the future. It also does not alter the odds of something happening, instead decreeing a set outcome (a “fate”, if you will), which is merely fate manipulation.

being able to create brand new possibilities on a whim[85]

This one is interesting, because altering possibilities is the one thing written here that sounds like it could be probability hax. Unfortunately, the context shoots this possibility (heh) in the foot. Atropos brings up the topic of Kratos and how they ought to observe him. Clotho refutes this by noting that he isn’t very interesting, stating that they could instead create some new monster for gods and humans to couple with, start a war, or spread diseases to alleviate their boredom. In essence, the “so many possibilities” line merely represents the vast range of options the fates have at their disposal for keeping things interesting, just as I could say there are “so many possibilities” for what I’m having for lunch. That doesn’t mean I’m warping probability to my will, of course, and neither are the fates.

and being able to change the outcomes of wars.[82]

Nothing here describes probability or causality manipulation; Yes, these are potentially mechanisms through which events can be manipulated, but the problem is that the fates already possess such a mechanism in the form of fate manipulation. That is how they accomplish more or less everything they do, so it is reasonable to conclude that they manipulate outcomes by changing fate (because the Sisters of Fate typically operate by changing fate).

They can easily create whatever outcomes they wish for their mortal and God subjects just by slight tugs and strokes on their Threads of Fate.[87]

I would say that this is just fate manipulation again, but I don’t even need to do that. The scan itself literally says that Lahkesis was manipulating fate/destiny.

They also regularly detect vibrations in said threads and counter them with their own to produce their own desired outcome for their subjects.[90]

So they can counteract fates they don’t like and replace them with those of their own design. This is fine, of course, but it also isn’t probability or causality manipulation. This is also another scan where it is explicitly said that fate manipulation, and not some other force, is at play here.

Their tinkering with Iris's fate caused dissension on Olympus as a mere side-effect.[91]

This is, yet again, a description of fate manipulation being misconstrued as probability and causality manipulation. It literally says they’re tinkering with fate in the scan, I don’t know how you could possibly get anything but fate manipulation from that.

Disrupting the Loom of Fate would free mankind from their bondage to Fate and Destiny[89]

This one’s just funny. Even the justification itself acknowledges this is fatehax, yet somehow pivots to “but it totally isn’t fatehax for some reason!”.

The only thing I could find that would support either ability is a statement that one of the sisters could change Kratos’ past. This is fine in a vacuum, but it’s been established that the sisters possess the ability to travel into the past. Kratos himself uses this power to avert his fate; This is likely what was meant by “changing his past”. Not changing it through some magic power to warp the past, but by going there physically and doing the dirty work yourself. This would be a basic function of time travel, and in no way attributable to some sort of causality hax.

Miscellaneous Stuff

Just some things that Planck accepted in the original downgrade thread, but were never applied. These are all straightforward.

• Oceanus' Life Manipulation/Creation - He has this because he has 3000 children. Sex is not an ability on this wiki.
• Persephone's Telekinesis - She can make energy pillars, which has nothing to do with telekinesis.
• Kratos' Resistance to Advanced Non-Physical Interaction - Do I really need to explain this one?

See you all next week!

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

agree

 

[ROZAN-TIMSINA0]

agree

Sex is not an ability on this wiki.

L for this wiki

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Everything looks logical, I agree. May change my stance if good counter arguments appear.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

If I counted correctly, everything you've proposed in these threads has been accepted so far. How many more threads do you anticipate that it'll take to get through everything from your first thread?

 

[Quibster]

Appears straightforward

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

If I counted correctly, everything you've proposed in these threads has been accepted so far. How many more threads do you anticipate that it'll take to get through everything from your first thread?

There were 47 points of discussion in the original thread, if I counted correctly. If this thread passes, we will have gone through 17 of them (an average of 4 per thread). While this is only an estimate, it should take no more than 12 threads to conclude this series of revisions, though it could take more given some topics will likely be very controversial and subject to long debates, forcing me to make threads dedicated to singular issues (like Kratos' innate power nullification and reactive evolution).

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

There were 47 points of discussion in the original thread, if I counted correctly. If this thread passes, we will have gone through 17 of them (an average of 4 per thread). While this is only an estimate, it should take no more than 12 threads to conclude this series of revisions, though it could take more given some topics will likely be very controversial and subject to long debates, forcing me to make threads dedicated to singular issues (like Kratos' innate power nullification and reactive evolution).

How long do you anticipate this to take?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

How long do you anticipate this to take?

That's not really up to me, and mostly depends on people's willingness to deal with these threads repeatedly. If we can get through them as quickly as possible (accounting for the 2-day grace period), it should be no more than 2-3 weeks. If there are week-long gaps between threads, it could be 3 or more months. I, personally, would like to get this done as quickly as possible.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

That's not really up to me, and mostly depends on people's willingness to deal with these threads repeatedly. If we can get through them as quickly as possible (accounting for the 2-day grace period), it should be no more than 2-3 weeks. If there are week-long gaps between threads, it could be 3 or more months. I, personally, would like to get this done as quickly as possible.

After the hax threads are done, what else do you have planned for GoW?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

After the hax threads are done, what else do you have planned for GoW?

A much longer thread focusing on magic and the nature of souls (to be more specific, most things covered on this page), and then two more threads for the cosmology/tiering; One for the Norse cosmology, and one for the Greek cosmology.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

A much longer thread focusing on magic and the nature of souls (to be more specific, most things covered on this page), and then two more threads for the cosmology/tiering; One for the Norse cosmology, and one for the Greek cosmology.

How different will GoW look after all the threads finish?

 

[Eseseso]

Not touching the probability/causality stuff for the Sisters of Fate, but the rest seems good.

 

[Quantu]

GoW really got away with a lot huh, a lot of these are surprisingly blatant tbh. And there's meant to over 10 more of these threads. Yikes.

I agree with everything here anyways.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

How different will GoW look after all the threads finish?

No low 1-C ratings, no infinite speed, no type 1 concept hax, pretty much everything that makes GoW unbearably "OP" these days is getting nuked. It's kind of hard to overstate just how much this verse has gotten away with in some areas.

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

agree can't wait for GoW to become mountain level fodder fr fr

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

Everything here looks fine, even the Causality hax removal

Kratos' Resistance to Advanced Non-Physical Interaction - Do I really need to explain this one?

How you can even resist Non-Physical Interaction, lmao

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

No low 1-C ratings, no infinite speed, no type 1 concept hax, pretty much everything that makes GoW unbearably "OP" these days is getting nuked. It's kind of hard to overstate just how much this verse has gotten away with in some areas.

What AP and Speed will it have, in your mind?

 

[Hasty12345]

Kratos' Resistance to Advanced Non-Physical Interaction - Do I really need to explain this one?

I’m curious, because I haven’t been played the games. Is this clip from failing a QTE?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

What AP and Speed will it have, in your mind?

Unsure. That would require a deep dive into the feats that existed pre-low 1-C/infinite, and I have not begun my research into those quite yet (I've only really looked into the cosmology itself, without touching the feats that would scale to that cosmology). Can't see the verse going below MFTL+ and some degree of cosmic tiering, however.

I’m curious, because I haven’t been played the games. Is this clip from failing a QTE?

I believe the context is that, once Kratos gains the power of hope, you're supposed to overpower Zeus and kill him once and for all in what is essentially a scripted sequence. However, even if you just stand there and do nothing, Zeus' attacks will clash against Kratos, do no harm, and push him back (that is to say, he is physically interacting with Kratos even if he can't hurt him).

 

[Hasty12345]

Unsure. That would require a deep dive into the feats that existed pre-low 1-C/infinite, and I have not begun my research into those quite yet (I've only really looked into the cosmology itself, without touching the feats that would scale to that cosmology). Can't see the verse going below MFTL+ and some degree of cosmic tiering, however.

I believe the context is that, once Kratos gains the power of hope, you're supposed to overpower Zeus and kill him once and for all in what is essentially a scripted sequence. However, even if you just stand there and do nothing, Zeus' attacks will clash against Kratos, do no harm, and push him back (that is to say, he is physically interacting with Kratos even if he can't hurt him).

I understand. Very cool sequence

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

I believe the context is that, once Kratos gains the power of hope, you're supposed to overpower Zeus and kill him once and for all in what is essentially a scripted sequence. However, even if you just stand there and do nothing, Zeus' attacks will clash against Kratos, do no harm, and push him back (that is to say, he is physically interacting with Kratos even if he can't hurt him)

That is correct.

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

I'll go the most of the stuff tomorrow when I wake up, But on a side note-

The easy debunk is that everything described here is just fate manipulation, and only resembles probability and causality manipulation due to these abilities sharing some surface level similarities (such as the ability to cause different events and outcomes through indirect manipulation). The more difficult debunk is taking these statements one at a time, which I will do right now.

According to the Fate Manipulation page, Causality and Probability Manipulation are types to Fate manipulation, so Fate hax being able to manipulate both is not a contradiction or really a point against the Fates having all three.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I'll go the most of the stuff tomorrow when I wake up, But on a side note-

According to the Fate Manipulation page, Causality and Probability Manipulation are types to Fate manipulation, so Fate hax being able to manipulate both is not a contradiction or really a point against the Fates having all three.

I mean, sure? But none of the abilities here are probability or causality manipulation even in a vacuum. They're not altering past events, they're not changing the odds of a thing happening, every feat listed is just "this thing will happen" and then it happens, because that's how fate works. The only thing that'd count as probability manipulation is the "creating possibilities" thing, but that's taken out of context (in context, it's just the Fates saying "look at how many things we could potentially do!").

Even if a power has several applicable sup-powers, we don't index those unless a user has actually demonstrated the use of those powers (eg; matter manipulation can potentially create fire, but not every matter manipulation user has fire manipulation). Do you understand what I'm getting at here?

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

I mean, sure? But none of the abilities here are probability or causality manipulation even in a vacuum. They're not altering past events, they're not changing the odds of a thing happening, every feat listed is just "this thing will happen" and then it happens, because that's how fate works. The only thing that'd count as probability manipulation is the "creating possibilities" thing, but that's taken out of context (in context, it's just the Fates saying "look at how many things we could potentially do!").

Even if a power has several applicable sup-powers, we don't index those unless a user has actually demonstrated the use of those powers (eg; matter manipulation can potentially create fire, but not every matter manipulation user has fire manipulation). Do you understand what I'm getting at here?

I'll address the evidence itself tomorrow, but it also seems you are on a misconception on what qualifies as Causality Manipulation, according to the page,

"The user can redirect any cause to any effect, undo anything by inverting the relation cause/effect, or even separate them entirely, making a specific effect impossible to be caused or a specific cause not producing any effect."

And it's examples,
"This allows one to achieve virtually anything by redirecting the selected cause to the desired effect. A finger snap that normally causes sound and kinetic force could instead cause a sun explosion or a massive resurrection."

You don't need to alter past events, if you assign an effect to something it wouldn't normally have, separate the cause and effect or just eliminate one of them is considered enough for Casualty manipulation.

 

[Deagonx]

Soul Manipulation [Hermes]

Hermes can escort souls to the Underworld. He doesn't destroy them, control them, or otherwise interact with them in a manner that could be described as "manipulation"; He merely guides them to a location.

Agreed, if this is the only justification in his profile, easy removal.

BFR [Sisters of Fate]

The Sisters of Fate can send souls to the Underworld. By killing people. That’s what happens when people die (an event which is orchestrated by the Fates), they go to the Underworld. This isn’t BFR at all, it’s just how the afterlife works.

Yes, this is just a reflection of her role in the process, not BFR by any means.

Transmutation & Durability Negation [Spear of Destiny]

The Spear of Destiny can turn people purple and make them explode. For starters, making a thing purple isn’t transmutation; It’s not turning their flesh to crystal, it’s not shooting a beam that turns enemies into candy, it just… makes them purple. Explosions also don’t negate durability by default, they can be tanked with sufficient durability just fine. Like, a not insubstantial number of durability feats on the site are from surviving explosions. This would also necessitate the removal of resistance to these abilities on the appropriate profiles.

Agreed.

Causing war does not require altering the past, especially not in this case, where Atropos plots out a series of events that would occur in the future. It also does not alter the odds of something happening, instead decreeing a set outcome (a “fate”, if you will), which is merely fate manipulation.

Straightforward.

This one is interesting, because altering possibilities is the one thing written here that sounds like it could be probability hax. Unfortunately, the context shoots this possibility (heh) in the foot. Atropos brings up the topic of Kratos and how they ought to observe him. Clotho refutes this by noting that he isn’t very interesting, stating that they could instead create some new monster for gods and humans to couple with, start a war, or spread diseases to alleviate their boredom. In essence, the “so many possibilities” line merely represents the vast range of options the fates have at their disposal for keeping things interesting, just as I could say there are “so many possibilities” for what I’m having for lunch. That doesn’t mean I’m warping probability to my will, of course, and neither are the fates.

Agreed, nothing indicates that they are "creating possibilities."

This one is interesting, because altering possibilities is the one thing written here that sounds like it could be probability hax. Unfortunately, the context shoots this possibility (heh) in the foot. Atropos brings up the topic of Kratos and how they ought to observe him. Clotho refutes this by noting that he isn’t very interesting, stating that they could instead create some new monster for gods and humans to couple with, start a war, or spread diseases to alleviate their boredom. In essence, the “so many possibilities” line merely represents the vast range of options the fates have at their disposal for keeping things interesting, just as I could say there are “so many possibilities” for what I’m having for lunch. That doesn’t mean I’m warping probability to my will, of course, and neither are the fates.
Nothing here describes probability or causality manipulation; Yes, these are potentially mechanisms through which events can be manipulated, but the problem is that the fates already possess such a mechanism in the form of fate manipulation. That is how they accomplish more or less everything they do, so it is reasonable to conclude that they manipulate outcomes by changing fate (because the Sisters of Fate typically operate by changing fate).
I would say that this is just fate manipulation again, but I don’t even need to do that. The scan itself literally says that Lahkesis was manipulating fate/destiny.
So they can counteract fates they don’t like and replace them with those of their own design. This is fine, of course, but it also isn’t probability or causality manipulation. This is also another scan where it is explicitly said that fate manipulation, and not some other force, is at play here.
This is, yet again, a description of fate manipulation being misconstrued as probability and causality manipulation. It literally says they’re tinkering with fate in the scan, I don’t know how you could possibly get anything but fate manipulation from that.

Yep, all just fate manip.

The only thing I could find that would support either ability is a statement that one of the sisters could change Kratos’ past. This is fine in a vacuum, but it’s been established that the sisters possess the ability to travel into the past. Kratos himself uses this power to avert his fate; This is likely what was meant by “changing his past”. Not changing it through some magic power to warp the past, but by going there physically and doing the dirty work yourself. This would be a basic function of time travel, and in no way attributable to some sort of causality hax.

Agreed.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

"The user can redirect any cause to any effect, undo anything by inverting the relation cause/effect, or even separate them entirely, making a specific effect impossible to be caused or a specific cause not producing any effect."

And it's examples,
"This allows one to achieve virtually anything by redirecting the selected cause to the desired effect. A finger snap that normally causes sound and kinetic force could instead cause a sun explosion or a massive resurrection."

You don't need to alter past events, if you assign an effect to something it wouldn't normally have, separate the cause and effect or just eliminate one of them is considered enough for Casualty manipulation.

Sure, but none of their feats work this way and are instead accomplished through fate manipulation (as you'd expect of the Sisters of Fate). Causality manipulation being a sub-power isn't really an argument when we don't just give users of an ability every possible extension of that ability (which can be inferred from the fact that not every fate manipulation user on the site has causality manipulation too.

 

[Deagonx]

You don't need to alter past events, if you assign an effect to something it wouldn't normally have, separate the cause and effect or just eliminate one of them is considered enough for Casualty manipulation.

What action specifically are you proposing meets this criteria and how?

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

Again, I'll go over the evidence used tomorrow, it's 1:30 AM for me.

 

[GarrixianXD]

@Planck69

 

[Deagonx]

@Mr. Bambu @DarkGrath @Firestorm808 @CrimsonStarFallen @Maverick_Zero_X @Armorchompy

Another simple set of revisions. Feel free to ignore the ping if you're busy/not interested.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Arguments for the removals seem fine.

 

[Robo432343]

Soul Manipulation [Hermes]

Hermes can escort souls to the Underworld. He doesn't destroy them, control them, or otherwise interact with them in a manner that could be described as "manipulation"; He merely guides them to a location.

bruh.

agree

 

[Borutonarutodebunked]

Agree with the removal

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

As promised, I'm gonna go over evidence itself. But before we start, I do agree with Probability being removed.

Causing war does not require altering the past, especially not in this case, where Atropos plots out a series of events that would occur in the future. It also does not alter the odds of something happening, instead decreeing a set outcome (a “fate”, if you will), which is merely fate manipulation.

In this one, she creates a cause and effect with simple vibrations of her threads.

Nothing here describes probability or causality manipulation; Yes, these are potentially mechanisms through which events can be manipulated, but the problem is that the fates already possess such a mechanism in the form of fate manipulation. That is how they accomplish more or less everything they do, so it is reasonable to conclude that they manipulate outcomes by changing fate (because the Sisters of Fate typically operate by changing fate).

Decreeing the effects an action have can indeed be Casualty manipulation even if it's done by fate manipulation.

I would say that this is just fate manipulation again, but I don’t even need to do that. The scan itself literally says that Lahkesis was manipulating fate/destiny.

Sure, but the mechanism they use is Casualty manipulation.

So they can counteract fates they don’t like and replace them with those of their own design. This is fine, of course, but it also isn’t probability or causality manipulation. This is also another scan where it is explicitly said that fate manipulation, and not some other force, is at play here.

They are altering naturally occurring causes and effects with their threads. It can indeed be Casualty manipulation.

This is, yet again, a description of fate manipulation being misconstrued as probability and causality manipulation. It literally says they’re tinkering with fate in the scan, I don’t know how you could possibly get anything but fate manipulation from that.

Sure.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

In this one, she creates a cause and effect with simple vibrations of her threads.

The context of the scan is that she causes a temporary lapse of etiquette in someone, which leads to a chain of events culminating in a war. The majority of what goes down here isn't even due to Atropos' meddling; She just established an event that spirals out of control (like kicking a pebble that ends up as an avalanche). This is accomplished using, what else, her fate manipulation.

To reiterate: She creates a "cause" merely in the sense that she causes an event that has consequences later down the line. I think you are misconstruing causality manipulation as "can cause things to happen", when it is substantially more complex than that.

Decreeing the effects an action have can indeed be Casualty manipulation even if it's done by fate manipulation.

Yes, it can be. Emphasis on "can". What about this particular feat denotes it was done through causality manipulation, and not mere fate manipulation?

Sure, but the mechanism they use is Casualty manipulation.

"Reaching out, she found the thread controlling Hades' destiny."

"He was only the first of the gods that Lahkesis touched, since their fate was so exciting to manipulate."

No, the text is very explicit about the mechanism being fate manipulation. I genuinely do not know how you can read a scan that almost verbatim says "this character is manipulating destiny and fate" and try to spin it as anything but fate manipulation.

They are altering naturally occurring causes and effects with their threads. It can indeed be Casualty manipulation.

Yes, by manipulating fate. Everything you are saying is already covered by fate manipulation, you don't need to append extra abilities to it.

This is legitimately difficult to argue against, since there's no substance behind any of these claims. It's just multiple instances of looking at characters called the Sisters of Fate, who use the Strings of Fate to manipulate people's fates, and are given multiple explicit feats and statements of controlling fate, and going "this isn't fate manipulation, but rather a separate but tangentially related thing" with next to no elaboration.

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

The context of the scan is that she causes a temporary lapse of etiquette in someone, which leads to a chain of events culminating in a war. The majority of what goes down here isn't even due to Atropos' meddling; She just established an event that spirals out of control (like kicking a pebble that ends up as an avalanche). This is accomplished using, what else, her fate manipulation.

To reiterate: She creates a "cause" merely in the sense that she causes an event that has consequences later down the line. I think you are misconstruing causality manipulation as "can cause things to happen", when it is substantially more complex than that.

Yes, it can be. Emphasis on "can". What about this particular feat denotes it was done through causality manipulation, and not mere fate manipulation?



No, the text is very explicit about the mechanism being fate manipulation. I genuinely do not know how you can read a scan that almost verbatim says "this character is manipulating destiny and fate" and try to spin it as anything but fate manipulation.

Yes, by manipulating fate. Everything you are saying is already covered by fate manipulation, you don't need to append extra abilities to it.

This is legitimately difficult to argue against, since there's no substance behind any of these claims. It's just multiple instances of looking at characters called the Sisters of Fate, who use the Strings of Fate to manipulate people's fates, and are given multiple explicit feats and statements of controlling fate, and going "this isn't fate manipulation, but rather a separate but tangentially related thing" with next to no elaboration.

Your acting as if those are abilities are separate. They are not, Casualty manipulation is simply a sub-type to fate manipulation.

If I manipulate Fate to manipulate cause and effect, then it's Casualty manipulation with fate manipulation.

It's the same reason being Acausal(4) leads to resistance for both.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

If I manipulate Fate to manipulate cause and effect, then it's Casualty manipulation with fate manipulation.

Yeah, but they're not doing that. No causes or effects are being manipulated. In every instance, the sisters are just decreeing "this event will happen" and then it does. What ensues in the wake of that decree is not attributable to any sort of special sub-power of fate manipulation.

Also like. Yes, the abilities are separate. That is why we have separate pages for them. While VSBW had made many stupid decisions in the past, I do not think making two separate pages for two abilities that are functionally identical is one of them.

 

[Pepsimanslover_69]

The context of the scan is that she causes a temporary lapse of etiquette in someone, which leads to a chain of events culminating in a war. The majority of what goes down here isn't even due to Atropos' meddling; She just established an event that spirals out of control (like kicking a pebble that ends up as an avalanche). This is accomplished using, what else, her fate manipulation.

To reiterate: She creates a "cause" merely in the sense that she causes an event that has consequences later down the line. I think you are misconstruing causality manipulation as "can cause things to happen", when it is substantially more complex than that.

Yes, and it's made clear she decreed the effect as well. Having a momentary lapse in etiquette could lead to War, but it's a possibility it could have, the Fates made it guaranteed.

Yes, it can be. Emphasis on "can". What about this particular feat denotes it was done through causality manipulation, and not mere fate manipulation?

That they chose and assigned said effects as well, Fate can lead to something happening, but it normally wouldn't allow to assign the effects themselves.

No, the text is very explicit about the mechanism being fate manipulation. I genuinely do not know how you can read a scan that almost verbatim says "this character is manipulating destiny and fate" and try to spin it as anything but fate manipulation.

And Casualty can be a mechanism under fate manipulation. They are not contradictory.

Yes, by manipulating fate. Everything you are saying is already covered by fate manipulation, you don't need to append extra abilities to it.

This is legitimately difficult to argue against, since there's no substance behind any of these claims. It's just multiple instances of looking at characters called the Sisters of Fate, who use the Strings of Fate to manipulate people's fates, and are given multiple explicit feats and statements of controlling fate, and going "this isn't fate manipulation, but rather a separate but tangentially related thing" with next to no elaboration.

Addressed by the above.

Yeah, but they're not doing that. No causes or effects are being manipulated. In every instance, the sisters are just decreeing "this event will happen" and then it does. What ensues in the wake of that decree is not attributable to any sort of special sub-power of fate manipulation.

They are, they chose what effects happen or not, counteract naturally occurring ones, etc.

Also like. Yes, the abilities are separate. That is why we have separate pages for them. While VSBW had made many stupid decisions in the past, I do not think making two separate pages for two abilities that are functionally identical is one of them.

not according to the pages themselves.

And they are not identical, fate manipulation can be done by probability just as well. It's just that they(Casualty and Probability) are types of the ability.

 

[Deagonx]

Causing something to happen isn't causality manip.

Yes, and it's made clear she decreed the effect as well. Having a momentary lapse in etiquette could lead to War, but it's a possibility it could have, the Fates made it guaranteed

The way you're describing this makes it sound as though you think that actions which result in outcomes through cause and effect is indicative of causality manip. But that is simply how actions work.

Fating something to happen doesn't require causality manip and nothing in these scans suggests that this is the mechanism for it.