The End of a Zamasu-flavored Era (Low 2-C CRT)

[ZillertheBucko]

Goku knew the risk of getting zeno involved in this. Yet he still summoned him because he realized there was no hope for the future timeline.

He literally came up with the idea while looking for a senzu bean to fight him so
Poor logic

 

[LeSupremeKing1]

We don't that anymore. A 2D object of 50 x 50 isn't infinitely smaller than a 3D of 3 x 3 x 3 because "a dimension less". Dimensions are nothing than axis lol.

Actually a 2d object would be 50 (length) x 50 (width) x 0 (depth) as they literally do not exist within a 3rd dimension. So if you were to apply mathematics, in comparison to a 3d object, a 2d object is literally not comparable at all.

Then why isn't Zeref Low 2-C despite he can mess with 400 years? Simple, because that's not how Low 2-C works.

Time is infinite from default, and destroying all of it is standard Low 2-C. Just affecting finite time is not enough.

There may be context behind that reasoning, unless I see the crt or what conversation took place before a verdict was reached, I wouldn't really use that to back up any argument.

Read above. Give me a time stamp of the episode where it's clear that he finished to merge.

There are other ways to fulfill a burden of proof without that. Like I said before, and i'll say it again, taking into consideration zamasu's speed at the time, the time he was given, and the fact he was then starting to breach the 2nd temporal axis and started to merge with another timeline, and not only that but 17 years into the timeline, I think it would be signaling to us, "hey now that this guy is not only one with the universe, but hes gonna start doing the same to ALL timelines"

Well this is turning into a hot mess.

Yeah, I also think this thread is like 2 seconds from being closed or becoming a staff thread or something.
Ngl im starting to understand things from AKM sama's perspective.

Omnipresent characters aren't automatically Tier 2 because they're in space time too. Plus nothing even says he finished except your fanfiction.

Please remain respectful.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Goku summoned Zen-Oh with the hopes that he would erase Zamasu.
He even suggested that Zen-Oh erase Zamasu specifically.
He did not summon Zen-Oh because "he realized there was no hope for the future timeline" and wanted the whole thing gone.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

I am just saying that IZ shouldn't be in fusion zamasu profile.
He should either get a new profile or he should be relocated to future zamasu profile.
Is that clear?

But it’s literally the same guy tho
Or are we gonna start adding profiles for each level of kaioken and super saiyan

 

[Nullflowerblush]

okay why do all of you have your icons removed

 

[BetterThanYou]

He literally came up with the idea while looking for a senzu bean to fight him so
Poor logic

It doesn't matter. Beerus and whis already warned goku about zeno's timeline destroying power. Yet he still chose to involve zeno against IZ. This means zeno was the only one who could deal with him.

 

[StrymULTRA]

You forget that you’re comparing volume and area
50 times 50 = 100
But if you apply the new axis then it’d be 50 times 50 times 0.000000000000000000000001 (with infinite zeros) and you’d find that it is not at all close to 3x3 times 3
This is very basic math

So now you're saying that I'm bigger than an infinitely sized 2D space because "I'm a dimension bigger". You're serious or just bullshitting me?

His feat is affecting time, along with affecting all the space he takes up (he was able to somehow nullify attacks that hit him except for erasure)
Also he should have the appropriate durability through sheer size regardless of the tiering itself, since a building level character is not going to destroy that much stuff

He. Never. Affect. Time. I've been asking for scans and y'all saying "he affected Space time because I say so".

 

[BetterThanYou]

Goku summoned Zen-Oh with the hopes that he would erase Zamasu.
He even suggested that Zen-Oh erase Zamasu specifically.
He did not summon Zen-Oh because "he realized there was no hope for the future timeline" and wanted the whole thing gone.

Goku wanted zamasu gone but he didn't realize that erasing zamas would also erase the universe since zamasu fused with it.
Anyway, we wouldn't be having this debate if BOG ssjg goku was low 2-C.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Goku Black is the unaltered present version of Zamasu.
Future Zamasu is the future version of Zamasu.
Fusion Zamasu is the combination of the two Zamases and his own entity at the same time -- one true Zamasu.
Infinite Zamasu is just the ethereal remnants of that whole Zamasu.

Beerus and whis already warned goku about zeno's timeline destroying power.

And, his existence erasing powers.

Yet he still chose to involve zeno against IZ. This means zeno was the only one who could deal with him.

Without any way to heal and recover his health, yeah, Zen-Oh was their only hope. But, since Goku did not have any Senzu Beans on him at the moment, there is no way to confirm or disprove his hypothesis. Also, summoning the guy who can erase things is a fairly easy way out.

we wouldn't be having this debate if BOG ssjg goku was low 2-C.

he isn't but that's off-topic

 

[ZillertheBucko]

So now you're saying that I'm bigger than an infinitely sized 2D space because "I'm a dimension bigger". You're serious or just bullshitting me?

Argue with my math then I dare you
Yes, I am saying that you’re bigger than an infinite sized 2d. Prove me wrong.

So now you're saying that I'm bigger than an infinitely sized 2D space because "I'm a dimension bigger". You're serious or just bullshitting me?

He. Never. Affect. Time. I've been asking for scans and y'all saying "he affected Space time because I say so".

beerus says he’s having an affect on the present, it’s on Infinite Zamasu’s profile currently

 

[StrymULTRA]

Actually a 2d object would be 50 (length) x 50 (width) x 0 (depth) as they literally do not exist within a 3rd dimension. So if you were to apply mathematics, in comparison to a 3d object, a 2d object is literally not comparable at all.

So now I'm bigger than whole 2D universes and can destroy them as well. Are you telling me I can destroy infinite 2D stuff at once?

There may be context behind that reasoning, unless I see the crt or what conversation took place before a verdict was reached, I wouldn't really use that to back up any argument.

It's literally what I said there. We don't assume affecting a limited amount of time being Low 2-C.

There are other ways to fulfill a burden of proof without that. Like I said before, and i'll say it again, taking into consideration zamasu's speed at the time, the time he was given, and the fact he was then starting to breach the 2nd temporal axis and started to merge with another timeline, and not only that but 17 years into the timeline, I think it would be signaling to us, "hey now that this guy is not only one with the universe, but hes gonna start doing the same to ALL timelines"

So you basically saying we never saw him fully merging and thus he doesn't have any Low 2-C feat at all, indirectly conceding.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Argue with my math then I dare you
Yes, I am saying that you’re bigger than

Can we destroy an infinite sized 2D space? No.

beerus says he’s having an affect on the present, it’s on Infinite Zamasu’s profile currently

Present and Future are not part of the same timeline, but just different universes as said in the thread.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Why does anybody scale to Infinite Zamasu anyway? Him becoming a universe has nothing to do with the size of his ki growing.

Nowhere is it ever stated or even suggested that his will merging with the universe had any affect on his destructive capacity, and to believe that would be to believe that Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks downscale from Low 2-C for surviving the onslaught of blasts Zamasu regurgitated at them.

Would this not fall under the unviable examples of the Stabilization Feats?

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Time is infinite from default, and destroying all of it is standard Low 2-C. Just affecting finite time is not enough.

Timelines can be finite my dude . Also why did you just disregard what I said dude.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Can we destroy an infinite sized 2D space? No.

Present and Future are not part of the same timeline, but just different universes as said in the thread.

The present still takes place earlier than the future
It’s both universal as well as time travel (not exactly travel, but more so his range and presence being that)

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Can we destroy an infinite sized 2D space? No.

The math says we can, so yes
Now prove me wrong, I’ve given the proof I need while your argument continues to be completely lacking in key points, which you attempt to compensate for by simply saying “No that’s not true!” Burden of proof my friend, tell me the math is bad

 

[BetterThanYou]

Goku Black is the unaltered present version of Zamasu.
Future Zamasu is the future version of Zamasu.
Fusion Zamasu is the combination of the two Zamases and his own entity at the same time -- one true Zamasu.
Infinite Zamasu is just the ethereal remnants of that whole Zamasu.

Agree with the first 3 but i disagree with the last one. IZ is just a formless future zamasu, not fusion zamasu.

And, his existence erasing powers.

Existence and timeline are both the same thing in dragon ball.

Without any way to heal and recover his health, yeah, Zen-Oh was their only hope. But, since Goku did not have any Senzu Beans on him at the moment, there is no way to confirm or disprove his hypothesis. Also, summoning the guy who can erase things is a fairly easy way out.

If zeno was capable of only erasing zamasu and leaving the rest, he would have done it. For example, zeno erased frost but left u6 team and the universe intact and alive. So he is perfectly capable of erasing a single target. The fact that he had to erase the entire future timeline in order to get rid of IZ IS PROOF THAT IZ became one with the future.

he isn't but that's off-topic

He should be. BOG goku not being low 2-C has created inconsistensies like goku getting infinite x infinite stronger in just 48 minutes. But yeah i agree, this is off topic.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Timelines can be finite my dude

Not on this site.

The present still takes place earlier than the future

They're not. They're complete separated realities, unless you're literally saying that Trunks and Goku worlds are literally part of the same timeline.

The math says we can, so yes
Now prove me wrong, I’ve given the proof I need while your argument continues to be completely lacking in key points, which you attempt to compensate for by simply saying “No that’s not true!” Burden of proof my friend, tell me the math is bad

It's proved wrong from common sense. We can't destroy a finite sized 2D universe because we're simply too small surface-wise. You can't seriously saying we're longer than a 20 m square because "A dimension more!", c'mon, that's nonsense for anyone who actually knows how dimensions work.

 

[Orioreeem]

Then why isn't Zeref Low 2-C despite he can mess with 400 years? Simple, because that's not how Low 2-C works.

Time is infinite from default, and destroying all of it is standard Low 2-C. Just affecting finite time is not enough.

What Zamasu said is mathematically right but this wiki only gives Low 2-C if you affect the entire thing.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Low 2-C bog is actually technically very relevant for it is a condition in which Infinite Zamasu could keep his tiering
Why not kill two birds with one stone? Or at least that’s what I would say but, sometimes that can get a bit messy, because obvious reasons

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I don't know why we're having this discussion here when it's ultimately derailing and won't lead to anything happening so long as the standards are as they stand now.

Make a new thread solely to discuss the standards to have this discussion.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Anyway, there are plenty of characters who aren't even Tier 3 physically despite being even 5D, like.

Countemilia, Belldandy and Anime Ghidorah (Low 2-C feat is from another thing, mind you)

 

[Eficiente]

I only read the OP; I agree and always knew he wasn't Low 2-C. This "big DB thread" should be a staff thread, I can't keep up with this much stuff and so me agreeing may as well be invalid.

Unfollowing.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

The fact that he had to erase the entire future timeline

"If Zamasu had not merged with the universe, why would Zen-Oh have erased it?"
Good question, but there is one bit you kind of left out. Zen-Oh did not swoop in and just erase Universe 7 before leaving. No, he erased the entire timeline.

Zen-Oh uses the word "world" when describing his target, and the word "world" is typically reserved for entire timelines, as they referred to as "parallel worlds" in Dragon Ball. Had he have only targeted that specific universe, which would have singled out Zamasu as the sole target and added credence to the idea that he became the entire universe, he would have used the word "universe" which is what everyone in the entire series uses when referencing... universes.

Zen-Oh was already annoyed by Zamasu (see left) and on top of that, Goku -- someone he does not know because this is the future timeline -- randomly pulled him away from whatever activity he was doing to take care of Zamasu. It has already been established that Zen-Oh has a very short temper; in the past, he erased six universes because he was in an "unpleasant mood", and Whis has stated before that he could and would end up erasing everything from existence if he ever got sour. Him erasing the entire future Multiverse because he was ticked off by Zamasu is just par for the course with Zen-Oh.

Also, are you arguing Low 2-C (merged with the universe) or 2-C (merged with the entire Multiverse)?

Also also...

Why does anybody scale to Infinite Zamasu anyway? Him becoming a universe has nothing to do with the size of his ki growing.

Nowhere is it ever stated or even suggested that his will merging with the universe had any affect on his destructive capacity, and to believe that would be to believe that Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks downscale from Low 2-C for surviving the onslaught of blasts Zamasu regurgitated at them.

Would this not fall under the unviable examples of the Stabilization Feats?

 

[LeSupremeKing1]

So now I'm bigger than whole 2D universes and can destroy them as well. Are you telling me I can destroy infinite 2D stuff at once?

This entire point is irrelevant but im saying the volume of a 3d object would be drastically higher (50 x 50 x 0 vs 50 x 50 x 50), unless what I'm saying is wrong or contradicted in a way i'm not seeing.
Also may be the reason why we have human level and below human level higher than infinite 2d on our own tiering system.

It's literally what I said there. We don't assume affecting a limited amount of time being Low 2-C.

What you were saying is that because zeref is not low 2-c, and he affected 400 years of time, anyone affecting a limited amount of time would not get to low 2-c.
Which remain neutral on as there may be context as to why they have reached the decision, it may not actually be the case because of the reason you presented.

So you basically saying we never saw him fully merging and thus he doesn't have any Low 2-C feat at all, indirectly conceding.

I presented evidence in the form of reasoning. There are other ways to prove something other than the way you want it to be proved.

Why does anybody scale to Infinite Zamasu anyway? Him becoming a universe has nothing to do with the size of his ki growing.

Nowhere is it ever stated or even suggested that his will merging with the universe had any affect on his destructive capacity, and to believe that would be to believe that Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks downscale from Low 2-C for surviving the onslaught of blasts Zamasu regurgitated at them.

Would this not fall under the unviable examples of the Stabilization Feats?

I would ask someone more knowledgable on his low 2-c scaling like AKM.
My guess (take this with a grain of salt) is that it qualifies for significantly affecting, which qualifies for the tier?
Or maybe becoming something gets you to that tier of something? Like being a planet giving you planetary ap or dura, or being a galaxy gives you that ap/dura?

Low 2-C bog is actually technically very relevant for it is a condition in which Infinite Zamasu could keep his tiering
Why not kill two birds with one stone? Or at least that’s what I would say but, sometimes that can get a bit messy, because obvious reasons

Its made clear in this wiki nobody will accept BOG as anything higher than 3-a, whether it actually is or not.

 

[LeSupremeKing1]

I only read the OP; I agree and always knew he wasn't Low 2-C. This "big DB thread" should be a staff thread, I can't keep up with this much stuff and so me agreeing may as well be invalid.

Unfollowing.

Yes please close it or make it a staff thread or something, its far too messy

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Like being a planet giving you planetary ap or dura, or being a galaxy gives you that ap/dura?

Yeah, but that is related to kinetic and potential energy.
Everything from Low 2-C onward is completely unrelated to conventional energy.

 

[BetterThanYou]

Low 2-C bog is actually technically very relevant for it is a condition in which Infinite Zamasu could keep his tiering
Why not kill two birds with one stone? Or at least that’s what I would say but, sometimes that can get a bit messy, because obvious reasons

Exactly. Also there were many people who had a problem with goku getting two infinities times stronger in a matter of 48 minutes. This issue can be solved too if bog goku was low 2-C

 

[ZillertheBucko]

They're not. They're complete separated realities, unless you're literally saying that Trunks and Goku worlds are literally part of the same timeline.

They’re different timelines but the present of one timeline is obviously taking place earlier than the future of another
It’s both time and dimensional travel to go between the two

It's proved wrong from common sense. We can't destroy a finite sized 2D universe because we're simply too small surface-wise. You can't seriously saying we're longer than a 20 m square because "A dimension more!", c'mon, that's nonsense for anyone who actually knows how dimensions work.

Nobody is saying I have infinite width, I’m saying there is more volume in a finite 3d object than an infinite 2d object which is complete common sense
Now deny my math or continue being wrong, even though both options will end in you being wrong most likely

 

[ZillertheBucko]

I only read the OP; I agree and always knew he wasn't Low 2-C. This "big DB thread" should be a staff thread, I can't keep up with this much stuff and so me agreeing may as well be invalid.

Unfollowing.

This becoming a staff thread would be a rather unappealing idea, since it’d result in a lot of arguments and counterarguments being silenced

 

[BetterThanYou]

Also, are you arguing Low 2-C (merged with the universe) or 2-C (merged with the entire Multiverse)?

He at least merged with the universe. That was shown and stated as far as I know. But since zeno erased the entire timeline, it could be possible that zamas merged with the entire future timeline, but we weren't shown that.
So at least low 2-C is safer to argue.

 

[BetterThanYou]

Its made clear in this wiki nobody will accept BOG as anything higher than 3-a, whether it actually is or not.

That is pretty sad. Low 2-C BOG will fix a lot of scaling issues for DBS

 

[sanicspood]

This being a staff thread is unironically the best idea here

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Regardless, this thread still needs to accept that eventually, infinite zamasu would have become low 2-C no matter what your stance is
and we also agree that zeno and super shenron should upscale from it

 

[BetterThanYou]

Regardless, this thread still needs to accept that eventually, infinite zamasu would have become low 2-C no matter what your stance is
and we also agree that zeno and super shenron should upscale from it

Zeno and super shenron have their own 2-C feats. They don't need any upscaling.

 

[StrymULTRA]

This entire point is irrelevant but im saying the volume of a 3d object would be drastically higher (50 x 50 x 0 vs 50 x 50 x 50), unless what I'm saying is wrong or contradicted in a way i'm not seeing.
Also may be the reason why we have human level and below human level higher than infinite 2d on our own tiering system.

We're stronger than 2Ds simply because of their small size, but we're not bigger than them in the sense of dwarfing their worlds infinitely.

I presented evidence in the form of reasoning. There are other ways to prove something other than the way you want it to be proved.

You prove something here with proofs, not speculation.

They’re different timelines but the present of one timeline is obviously taking place earlier than the future of another
It’s both time and dimensional travel to go between the two

It doesn't work like that tho. They're just different timelines completely unrelated to each other. You're literally not understand how a Multiverse works.

Nobody is saying I have infinite width, I’m saying there is more volume in a finite 3d object than an infinite 2d object which is complete common sense
Now deny my math or continue being wrong, even though both options will end in you being wrong most likely

But we don't see 2D universes as infinitely smaller than us. We're still smaller than 20 m squares.

He at least merged with the universe. That was shown and stated as far as I know. But since zeno erased the entire timeline, it could be possible that zamas merged with the entire future timeline, but we weren't shown that.
So at least low 2-C is safer to argue.

He didn't fully merge with it. Are y'all this dense?

Regardless, this thread still needs to accept that eventually, infinite zamasu would have become low 2-C no matter what your stance is
and we also agree that zeno and super shenron should upscale from it

Indeed. Would have. He just wasn't when Zeno erased him.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

I do not even feel like replying this time just so you realize how little sense you’re making
1. It does not matter if you have less length and width than a square, you will always have infinitely more volume than one

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Also 2. The alternate timeline still is considered the future for a reason, it does not take place in an alternate version of the same time period
Unless trunks is now just magically older because funny alternate universe said so

 

[StrymULTRA]

I do not even feel like replying this time just so you realize how little sense you’re making
1. It does not matter if you have less length and width than a square, you will always have infinitely more volume than one

But we're not infinitely bigger on a spatial POV. We can't destroy a 2D stuff with a far larger area than us.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Also 2. The alternate timeline still is considered the future for a reason, it does not take place in an alternate version of the same time period
Unless trunks is now just magically older because funny alternate universe said so

Parallel timelines work like that tho.