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The Elder Scrolls

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Well it's true that mundus has infinite parallels but for one thing, the gods died after creation, also just because time is present everywhere in mundus, doesn't mean akatosh can one shot infinite universes. Although i find it more likely that they are different incarnations and shards of the Aka oversoul as they are literally called dragon breaks.
 
Well, if his laws extends onto infinite timelines, and it is not different versions of Akatosh, but the same entity, I think that a 2-A rating seems warranted.
 
Ok, but i think it likely that it's not the same akatosh as dragon break literally mean breaking the dragon. There are different variations of every being across the parallels and i doubt that akatosh is any different. In some dragin breaks there are worlds where gods walk among men, the magne ge descend etc. This suggests that even the gods have their own variations for each of the universes. I would change akatosh to "Tier 2-B possibly 2-A". Though the 2-A is more appropriate for his AKA incarnation, as in the original time god before it shattered.
 
Okay. I do not have the time to update the Aedra and Daedra profiles myself though, and we preferably need more staff input. I will highlight this thread again.
 
On second thought, perhaps it would be better if you create a separate thread regarding downgrading the Aedra and Daedra to 2-B, and then I can highlight that instead.
 
Hat mchat said:
Just a question: shouldn't the daedric princes be downgraded to 2-B. The biggest feat for a prince I've seen is sanguine who controls 100,000 realms. I can't see any evidence of complete power over infinite universes. Also scaling from akatosh doesn't seem right as his power is not present in all of oblivion: "As for time, cause, and consequence, let's just say that the laws of the Dragon God do not apply to Oblivion. Oh, it's useful to adopt the trappings of duration when dealing with mortals, so you'll find Maelstrom quite familiar in that regard. We know how lost you feel away from the hand of Akatosh!". Also just because time is present in some realms doesn't mean akatodh can one shot infinite universes. I think the 2-A rating should be removed for the princes and replaced with 2-B.
Click to expand...
Oblivion realms are basically contained multiverses. Sort of like Klein Bottles.

Also, all the et'ada exist on a higher level than Mundus. The mortal multiverse.

Pretty sure that warrants a 2-A or by extreme stretch a High 2-A rating
 
Vaermina's realm, is the source of all terror, fear, dreams, and nightmares in the entirety of TES sans Sithis, Anuiel, Godhead, and all other Amaranths.

It should likely be noted that the Mundus plane has infinite timelines and each one of them likely has a mortal in it. And fear is apart of them in a way. Vaermina controls this realm.

Should be enough to warrant 2-A on her own. As fear and terror likely exists everywhere and in everything and she is able to control the source.

One of her people were able to create an infinite void using one of her staffs,
 
Well some et'Ada are logically at least 5 dimensional ('hyperagonal' compared to three dimensional mortals and can control a temporal dimension) to 6 or 7 dimensional (considering that each cosmos layer is infinitely larger than the previous and they originated in Aetherius) in any case? Doesn't that suggest a High 2-A to 1-C?

I mean there is so many tiers they could actually be. Bethesda do not take into account how powerful the et'Ada logically are and the main characters defeat them in the most absolutely pathetic ways which would never suggest they are anywhere near city level.. so I don't know how powerful they really want them to be.

I've already suggested implementing a list of possible tiers they are at, and justifications for those tiers, but it is up to the mods to follow up on that or not. Unless we do that, I don't think any upgrades or downgrades should occur yet. People are always going to have different valid reasons on which characters to upgrade or downgrade with ES, it will always be going up and down and it probably won't ever remain the same knowing how inconsistent Bethesda are.
 
Also: "limitless dimensions". Joking aside, the hyperagonal thing is quite solid evidence of higher dimensions in oblivion, all explained in 'liminal bridges'. I personally think daedra are higher dimensional as the text is painfully obvious with regards to references to higher dimensions. Also the limitless dimension thing, i think should be taken more seriously though, they refer to it as a property of oblivion so they certainly aren't referring to universes.
 
There is no "Main character" in TES. Sure it has people who you control and follow with. However it is so ambiguous that there cannot be a main character. It's too much stuff to go over to correctly say who it revolves around
 
I have asked Azathoth and Gwynbleiddd for input regarding the hyperagonal and "infinite dimensions" issues.
 
In the meantime, could you provide the quoted text where it is mentioned, and reference the sources?
 
Yes, if Gwynbleiddd and Azathoth are going to be able to help out to evaluate this, you need to provide good summaries of the evidence.
 
I'm just going to link this very good and relevant summary of the princes just in case you want some good proof regarding their abilities: https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/comparative-analysis-on-daedric-princes-powers.380167/

"You think that, because you perceive a superficial resemblance between the outward appearance of the Nightmare Courser and the Hell Hound, that they must share a 'relationship.' Ever the mortal mind defends itself against the reality of what it cannot comprehend by the pathetic imposition of familiar patterns on entities of inconvenient hyperagonal morphology. Bah. Reflect on the fact that you have failed to understand a single word of my explanation, and burden me with no more such questions." - Lyranth the Foolkiller

"Know that there are places beyond Tamriel where the cunning and the wary can go to learn forgotten spells. I speak of the planes of Oblivion. The sea of limitless dimensions contains an endless series of islands. Some are controlled by the mighty Daedric Princes; others are loosely connected to one minor Daedra Lord or another. On these islands, creatures dwell who possess secrets out of time. Some are there of their own volition, but others are banished there for crimes either heinous or imagined." -Rulantaril's notes

The relevant bit of liminal bridges: "Transliminal passage of quickened objects or entities without the persistent agency of hyperagonal media is not possible, and even if possible, would result in instantaneous retromission of the transported referents. Only a transpontine circumpenetra- tion of the limen will result in transits of greater than infinitessimal duration.

Though other hyperagonal media may exist in theory, the only known transliminal artifact capable of sustained transpontine circumpenetration is the Sigil stone. A sigil stone is a specimen of pre-Mythic quasi-crystalline morpholith that has been transformed into an extra-dimensional artifact through the arcane inscription of a daedric sigil. Though some common morpholiths like soul gems may be found in nature, the exotic morpoliths used to make sigil stones occur only in pocket voids of Oblivion, and cannot be prospected or harvested without daedric assistance.

Therefore, since both the morpholiths and the daedric sigils required for hyperagonal media cannot be obtained without traffic and commerce with Daedra Lords, it is necessary that a transliminal mechanic cultivate a working knowledge of conjuration—though purpose-built enchantments may be substituted if the mechanic has sufficient invocatory skill. Traffic and commerce with Daedra Lords is an esoteric but well-established practice, and lies outside the compass of this treatise."

Hyperagonal is a term referring to degrees of freedom perpendicular to 3-D movement. It essentially refers to higher dimensions. True it is not specific as hyper denotes any higher dimensional space, but the limitless dimensions thing should sum it up. Also the argument that dimensions mean universe is invalid as islands appears to refer to universes otherwise it would be a tautology. Dimensions is a property of oblivion hence "the sea of limitless dimensions"

Based on evidence providee for other characters regarding higher dimensions i think this is sufficient to say daedric princes are definitely higher dimensional 100%
 
And how higher-dimensional do you think that they are?
 
Well like the text says: infinite dimensional. I'm certain the text is referring to spatial dimensions as islands is referring to universes which can be seen by the following statement about princes ruling the islands. Also as mentioned it would be a tautology if dimensions meant universes. Furthermore dimensions are described as a property of oblivion.

If you add a high 1-B tier the description i thought of to explain it would be: "Oblivion requires use of hyperagonal media to reach it from the mortal plane and it has been described as a sea of limitless dimensions. The 3-D oblivion seen by mortals is merely a projection as the true oblivion is unfathomable in scale for the mortal mind to comprehend." Or something like that.

To reach oblivion you essentially need an infinite dimensional wormhole, just as to travel through our universe faster than light you need to travel through 5-D spacetime in a wormhole to take a shortcut.

An oblivion gate is higher dimensional technology and even when you reach oblivion you merely percieve the 3-D representation of it. Regarding why daedra don't just one shot you in oblivion: likely just PIS. It's a gane after all and it would be no fun if you entered oblivion but then got un-alived by an infinite dimensional being. This also applies to why mehrunes dagon doesn't just kill you as soon as you enter his realm (he could, it's literally part of him).
 
Well, even if Oblivion actually is infinite-dimensional in its absolute totality, it likely does not mean that the creatures that dwell there, such as the Aedra and Daedra automatically are.
 
And I am not so sure that it is infinite-dimensional.
 
True, the minor daedra may not be, but the princes certainly are as they don't merely exist in higher dimensional space, they literally warp and create it. Limitless = infinite, therefore limitless dimensions means infinite dimensions. My summary on why i think it is spatial dimensions should be adequate and i don't see a counter-argument. At the very least i think possibly high 1-B is reasonable.
 
Also the text on liminal bridges calls a sigil stone "extra-dimensional" just to confirm once and for all they refer to higher dimensions along with the word hyperagonal. Also there is no other text referring to how many dimensions oblivion has so infinite is the best one to go on. We definitely know it is higher dimensional now and limitless dimensions is the best piece of evidence regarding how many dimensions.
 
Well, I want to wait for staff input before making any exaggerated massive upgrades.
 
That it is based on speculation and diffuse statements, so I am reluctant to allow massive upgrades.
 
Outright statements about Oblivion being infinite-dimensional, and that the Aedra and Daedra share its nature would be preferable.
 
Hat mchant -

I currently don't think a 1-B is should be applied to et'Ada yet unless we get some more evidence for Oblivion being infinite dimensional. It's more reasonable at the moment to say that Oblivion contains an infinite number of five dimensional multiverses, such as the Mundus and Daedric realms.

Most et'Ada are logically 5 to 7 dimensional based on much more reliable evidence and the cosmology itself, so we should be able to safely upgrade off that.
 
Ok i'll try to explain: 1) regarding outright statements: i think it's reasonable to be 100% certain that oblivion is indeed at least higher dimensional as presented in the text liminal bridges as there is use of the terms: "hyperagonal" and "extra-dimensional". Also in the text by Lyranth Foolkiller there is evidence regarding how mortals see a 3-D projection of oblivion due to the true oblivion being too unfathomable to comprehend. Also in Rulantaril's notes, the text outright says that oblivion is infinite dimensional "the sea of limitless dimensions contains an endless series of islands". This is a very clear statement regarding how many dimensions

2) regarding daedra sharing it's nature: First of all, even if they don't share it's nature, this would certainly allow sithis, anuiel and higher beings to certainly be upgraded to 1-A as they transcend oblivion. Anyway back to the point this text shows how a nere mortal with a daedric artifact can have complete power over a daedric realm: "There is no world so great as the world of the mind.

There is no voyager so well-traveled as the traveler in the land of dreams.

There is no abyss so deep as the well of terror that lies within each of us.

I have plumbed its depths.

I have seen the unthinkable. I am unafraid.

Even death's boundaries do not confine me.

I am the lord of limitless space, and the master of place and time.

Through the doors of sleep, the universe lies waiting for me.

I will no longer wait for my dreams to carry me worlds away, to unknowable deeps, to unspeakable vastness.

I shall dwell in the House of Vaermina forever, the Orb my companion.

There is no compass to my destination, no end to my journey.

My mind is the eternal voyager, fearless and wild with wonder in the Halls of Horror." This is said by the wizard arvek. It's important to remember that daedric realms are extensions of the princes. This demonstrates how daedric princes have qualitative superiority over these infinite dimensional spaces.
 
I'll try to give my input on the different points, let me know if I missed anything out.

On CHIM - We DO NOT know what it really is or what it does, the description on the Elder Scrolls wiki is pure conjecture. Most everything we know about CHIM (and it's not much) comes from unreliable characters and even if we accept everything they claim it's not anywhere near compelling enough for a 1-A rating. On a similar note, nothing suggests Anu and Padomay are 1-A... these are forces that can't even do anything anymore. Keep in mind that the player character can just walk in and "kill" Vivec in Morrowind, his "CHIM" doesn't help him all that much in this scenario. Hell, by in-game feats Vivec is much weaker than the et Ada. I tend not to count the Trial of Vivec as canon, but even if we do it doesn't really do much for Vivec; as far as I aware he only faces an avatar of Azura and he uses her "true name" to defeat her. Feel free to correct me on this. To sum up: every fan has their own definition of CHIM, which makes it inherently ill-suited for battle boards.

On the rank of the et Ada - They are most likely all equals, each being supreme under certain conditions. I don't know where this idea that Azura is a lesser Daedra came from but it certainly isn't true, Azura as the embodiment of transition is one of the most important forces in the Aurbis.

Type of Immortality - et Ada should probably have type 9 (which replaced conceptual I think) and type 4 I guess?

Dimensions in TES - I already made a post on this subject here, where I explain the terms also, we never reached a consensus. There certainly isn't enough evidence for a High 1-B rating for anything in TES.

The current 2-A rating - We also discuss this here, I had my doubts but I'm okay with it at the moment.

Let me know if I forgot to reply to something.
 
I had a look at the thread and i couldn't find anyone debunking the infinite dimensional thing. Could someone argue as to why infinite dimensions does not mean infinite dimensions? Why do we need more evidence, the text outright says how oblivion is of limitless dimensions and contains an endless series of islands (universes). The text provides a quantifiable description of oblivion with nothing that opposes it. If you are told that character A just destroyed a continent you would rank them 6-A. If you were told character B was infinite dimensional you rank them high 1-B. You don't need to hear 5 different people all say character A destroyed a continent.
 
It might be talking about dimensions, I've made this point myself in the past, but I have a number of issues with the text:

- It's written by a mortal, so it's not the most reliable piece of evidence.

- It's not explicitly clear what it means by dimensions.

-It's the ONLY piece of lore that even hints at infinite spatial dimensions and I feel for a rating such as High 1-B we need more than one piece of evidence. This is also connected to my first point about it being written by a mortal: if we had multiple sources that could corroborate this claim, even from other mortals, I would be a lot more accepting of it.
 
Well there are 2 other sources that refer to it being higher dimensional: Rulantaril's notes, liminal bridges and Lyranth Foolkiller. This in conjunction with a quantification of exactly how higher dimensional it is. These are multiple sources regarding the higher spatial dimensions nature of oblivion. What else could it mean by dimensions? True it's written by a mortal, but this should at least warrant a consideration to the infinite dimensional structure of oblivion. As there is nothing that opposes the infinite dimensional thing, it should at keast be considered. Yes it's the only piece of lore, but it is a piece of lore nonetheless, this goes for any feat. We know for a fact that liminal bridges is referring to spatial dimensions so is it really unbelievable that Rulantaril's notes are referring to higher dimensions? In fact for a verse with difficult to quantify feats, this is quite a breath of relief in terms of clarity. I really do recommend checking this analysis out though: https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/comparative-analysis-on-daedric-princes-powers.380167/

Also if you do believe dimensions = universes, could you find a case anywhere in TES whereit has obviously been used as so? If not, this is further evidence suggesting dimensions = well dimensions.

Also why would you need more evidence for higher tiers? I would say quality over quantity. The same system should apply to all tiers: if there is a feat that is clear and there is nothing to suggest it's far fetched, then that is evidence for that tier.
 
I'm wondering if you could clearly list the reasons why you think Lyranth and Liminal Bridges imply Oblivion has an infinite number of spatial dimensions with quotes from said sources. So I know where you are coming from.

I think it is very possible that Rulantaril is referring to spatial dimensions, buuuut it's not made explicitly clear and there is room for interpretation. The issue isn't with the lore, the issue is with the High 1-B rating itself: this is a very high rating that, as far as I am aware, requires a lot of supporting evidence. Perhaps a staff member could clarify the requirements.
 
Could you give me an example of the scale of evidence needed for high 1-B, as in can you think of a character as a good example?

I'm not saying that Lyranth says infinite dimensions, but implies higher dimensions whereas Rulantaril outright states it. This alone should allow for 'Possibly High 1-B'. I provided the quotes further up in the thread. The text VERY specifically shows that islands is referring to dimensions, look at the sentences following the "limitless dimensions" part regarding creatures living in these islands.

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Rulantaril%27s_Notes

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Lyranth_the_Foolkiller_Answers_Your_Questions Lyranth is an actual daedra.
 
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