The Elder Scrolls

[Hat_mchat]

Another point I'd like to raise is this infamous text: "But then the Hist-Jilian wars spilled out of a Wheelian rip into the SubSys slice of 'brane-space, and things changed for Kinmune. With the outer colonies separated from Nu-Mundelbright chronoculic sync-net anchors, maintenance of space-time beyond the F-Shores faltered. As the barely-there Hist blink-root-ship armada fired an artillery barrage of 16th-dimensional mathematics at their Jilian enemies, impossipoint detonations stippled across the Ix-Egg and its clutch-satellites like some garish TalOSian hologram, only without the irony. Kinmune's synthetic body, caught in one of the blasts, suddenly found itself in the Ysgramorim, her mind an aggregate of the residual personalities of her last several users." -Kinmune

Ok while this isn't much proof at all i agree and that it has been brought up before, it shows that there are concepts of higher dimensions in elder scrolls and while 16-D mathematics is something 3-D beings can do, we can't physically manifest it as a 16-Dimensional attack. That last bit about 16-D attacks isn't reakky my main point. I was just showing all the cases of higher dimensions shown in elder scrolls and that it isn't just a one off.

Regarding other tier 1 characters: Is elder scrolls really the only verse that has shown such 'vague' feats for being tier 1? Surely there are other characters here that have evidence on par with elder scrolls yet are tier 1? Personally i thought it was quite clear, am i wrong about the other characters though?

 

[Shazam121]

We don't use Kinmune as it isn't proper canon.

 

[Hat_mchat]

Yes but it shows that the concept of higher dimensions is a thing in TES.

 

[Shazam121]

I already accept that. I've been through this subject in the past on here.

 

[Hat_mchat]

Ok good, so now that we accept the princes are higher dimensional, how much? Well for one thing we now know that the 2-A tier is a low-ball as the princes are higher dimensional. Can we quantify how higher dimensional? Yes we can: Rulantaril's notes. Yes it's not the ultimate source of all knowledge, but it is a source yet to be disproven nonetheless. This should allow for possibly high 1-B.

 

[Shazam121]

By "we" if you mean you and I then I guess so. The rating I originally propsed was At least High 2-A, but we never reached a consensus.

I didn't feel comfortable proposing a rating any higher. Still don't really.

 

[Hat_mchat]

I don't expect a solid tier high 1-B, but as no one has straight up debunked the text, it is reasonable for them to possibly high 1-B.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that you should stop all discussion until Azathoth and Gwynbleiddd have had the chance to evaluate this, and then I would prefer if you all immediately permanently stop bombarding us with TES threads, as they are turning very exhausting.

 

[SITHISIT]

What Ant said. For now let's keep changes to TES to some stuff like cleaning up and capitalizing the abilities and such, which shouldn't take much effort after me and Gwynn cleaned up half the profiles. Yknow, small stuff

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

The infinite dimensions thing is far more likely than not referring to infinite planes of reality as opposed to infinite higher layers of existence due to context.

"Hyperagonal" is not actually a real word or term in mathematics, so I don't know how to properly view that without full context.

 

[SITHISIT]

However combine it with the current known agonalities in mathematics with Triagonal/Quadagonal, its a branch of it and a higher plane up.

So five dimensional seems good as Hypercubes are generally associated with five dimensional space and the Hyperagonal stuff seems to relate to mathematics.

@Azzy the Infinite planes of reality make no sense as the islands are likely reffered to as the realms, as such when the book states the Daedric Princes rule over these islands but not the dimensions themselves.

 

[Antvasima]

I have similar concerns to Azathoth.

 

[Hat_mchat]

Ok i agree it is inconclusive and infinite dimensions is too vague due to possible exaggeration or referring to universes (which i highly doubt). I agree with Riiingo that they are at least 5-D, so the princes should be high 2-A and sithis and anuiel at least low 1-C.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@Riiingo

Hypercubes are four-dimensional and greater analogs to cubes, actually. This gets people kind of confused due to Tesseracts being specifically named, but they are indeed the minimum type of hypercube.

I'm still unsure on the whole "hyperagonal" thing, as in context, it simply seems to refer to movement between alternate planes of reality, as it makes specific mention of the Sigil stones, which allow passage into the planes of Oblivion.

 

[Hat_mchat]

They also use the term extra-dimensional. Wikipedia defines it: "In physics, extra dimensions are proposed additional space or time dimensions beyond the (3 + 1) typical of observed space-time, such as the first attempts based on the Kaluza―Klein theory." This along with hyperagonal used on multiple occasions is surely enough evidence to higher dimensional daedric princes.

 

[Mora8]

Well I'll give my opinion on the matter. If I get anything wrong, just say, because I'm not an expert in physics and ES cosmology is really weird. Bear in mind that there are lots of other views.

Even if we did not accept the 1-B feat, which I firmly disagree using at the moment unless we get more evidence in later games, we still have the following material which would justify a decent upgrade to at least a few cosmic ES profiles:

1.

Aedra have five dimensional feats, and they collectively created a five dimensional word of god 'multiverse' called Mundus. Refer to the official TESO story introduction:

"Nirn has come unmoored from the fabric of the multiverse"

https://www.imperial-library.info/content/introduction-lore-elder-scrolls-online

We already know Mundus has parallel four dimensional timelines in any case, from the Daggerfall ending, the mention of 'Adjacent Planes' and gods moving at 'strange angles' to escape Kalpas. I have found no evidence challenging the idea that it is a multiverse, but it is unclear what size it is (i.e. might not be infinite, I don't know how this changes things).

Oblivion is infinitely larger than Mundus, rendering each Daedric realm a similar multiverse of unknown size. Oblivion is an infinite six dimensional multiverse in this regard; is confirmed to contain an infinite count of realms by the lore writers. The fact that there are "sub" realms in Daedric realms implies parallel planes similar to Mundus.

Daedra can travel between each other's realms (happens plenty of times throughout the games) and according to a Demiprince (low tier Daedric prince), have the power to shatter each other's realms in direct combat:

"Then there are what we call the 'sundered realms,' pocket realities that were shattered by interplanar war or Princely expungement."

https://www.imperial-library.info/content/lord-fa-nuit-hen-and-tutor-riparius-answer-your-questions

This presumably showing that they exist on a six-dimensional level at least, and they can exist freely of realms if they want to. Daedra are also said to be 'hyperagonal' two times, and the word hyperagonal is used a further two times throughout ES. In the book, Limimal Bridges, the term is outright stated to entail extra dimensional, and in context it is very obvious that it is referring to higher dimensions. The term 'hyperagonal' has also been used in real articles, but it's very unheard of. I doubt it has an acknowledged definition, but even though I have no doubt ES writers made it up, it is still significant in context and in my opinion very unreasonable to deny. None the less, it implies that the spatial form of a Daedra is at least four dimensional, backing up aforementioned ideas.

Hyperagonal is also used two times in context where it implies extra dimensional:

"You think that, because you perceive a superficial resemblance between the outward appearance of the Nightmare Courser and the Hell Hound, that they must share a 'relationship.' Ever the mortal mind defends itself against the reality of what it cannot comprehend by the pathetic imposition of familiar patterns on entities of inconvenient hyperagonal morphology."

In this case, it is referring to the fact that mortals as three dimensional can only percieve a cross section of a lesser Daedra.

"Though other hyperagonal media may exist in theory, the only known transliminal artifact capable of sustained transpontine circumpenetration is the Sigil stone. A sigil stone is a specimen of pre-Mythic quasi-crystalline morpholith that has been transformed into an extra-dimensional artifact through the arcane inscription of a daedric sigil. Though some common morpholiths like soul gems may be found in nature, the exotic morpoliths used to make sigil stones occur only in pocket voids of Oblivion, and cannot be prospected or harvested without daedric assistance."

Here, even if we assume the term 'hyperagonal' is meaningless, it still states that Daedra can turn things into extra dimensional artefacts. Taking my prior view that major Daedric planes are five dimensional, a hyperagonal Sigil Stone could make sense in its use, in that it could allow a three dimensional being to point themselves at one of these cross section universes within a Daedric realm and travel there. Sigil Stones are also used to empower portals between Oblivion and Mundus, if that holds any significance.

Aetherius is furthermore infinitely larger than Oblivion, according to the 'Cosmology' book, and must be logically higher dimensional in order to not be part of Oblivion, which contains 'all possibility' (likely within a six dimensional context):

"Your problem, mortal, is exemplified by your words, 'share a common origin in the planes of Oblivion.' There is nothing 'common' about, between, or across the planes of Oblivion—they are the very definition of change and variation, manifesting all possibilities, and validating all understanding and misunderstanding. You seek similarities where there are only differences, a classification of chaos."

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Lyranth_the_Foolkiller_Answers_Your_Questions

The Magna Ge reside in Aetherius, but they have no seven dimensional feats. All et'Ada originated in Aetherius. What this should apply to is Anuiel, Sithis and all other superceding entities, putting them at mid 1-C (seven dimensional or higher). Daedric princes should also receive a low 1-C rating for being six dimensional, or High 2-A for being five dimensional, depending on what you accept here?

2.

Mundus may have more than one temporal dimension according to two sources, but I do not take this too seriously, unless perhaps we get more information on it in the later games. This should extend to AKA(tosh) and potentially his aspects thereof.

"You look to your left, you see one way. You look to your right, you see another. But neither is any harder than the opposite. But the Elder Scrolls... they look left and right in the stream of time. The future and past are as one: Sometimes they even look up. What do they see then? What if they dive in?"

"It would take a month to explain to you how that very question doesn't even make sense. The Scrolls exist here, with us, but also beyond and beneath. Before and after."

Last time these were mentioned in a discussion, the result was inconclusive.

3.

There are many different ideas and I think unless we set up a profile system which lists all likely/potential tiers of ES gods, we're going to keep wasting the moderators' time calling for constant upgrades and downgrades, because there will always be people who disagree. ES lore and cosmology is incredibly complicated and open to many different views. Throw in the metaphysics and it gets even more complicated. Throw in what is canon and non-canon and it then gets even further more complicated. There is no simple answer, and I doubt the mods want to waste their time setting this up either. But I've given my views on the subject.

 

[SITHISIT]

snip

A hypercube is: a geometric cube associated with being in four or more dimensions.

A tesseract is: a 4D analog of a cube.

Notice the "higher" part and the fact that the Daedric princes have been noted to be extradimensional

 

[Antvasima]

@Azathoth & Gwynbleiddd What do you think of Mora8's suggestion of 5- to 6-dimensional Aedra and Daedra?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

A hypercube is: a geometric cube associated with being in four or more dimensions.

A tesseract is: a 4D analog of a cube.

This quite literally is what I said.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@Ant

My problem is mainly that there is an extreme amount of speculation and assumed intent involved in this, which, as has already been stated, makes it difficult to properly tier. I have not seen anything that leads to beyond 2-A/"At least 2-A" at most without delving into a large amount of assumptions, but I would like to know what Gwyn thinks.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the evaluation.

 

[Hat_mchat]

Would the text need to specify it is referring to spatial dimensions?

 

[Antvasima]

Preferably, yes.

In any case, Azathoth, do you think that we should close this thread?

 

[Mora8]

@Azazoth

What in particular do you believe to be speculation on my part? We have the following facts that:

- {5D} Mundus is a five or six dimensional multiverse (the very term 'multiverse' directly used by lore writers)

- {6D} Oblivion is infinitely larger than Mundus (directly confirmed by lore writers as well as several in-game books); each major Daedric realm has 'sub-realms' which pushes the idea that Oblivion is a six dimensional multiverse containing an infinite count of five dimensional structures like Mundus and the major Oblivion realms

- {7D} Aetherius is stated to be infinitely larger than Oblivion, but must logically be higher dimensional than Oblivion to make sense in any case, see my previous post for why this is

- {7D} The Aurbis itself includes Mundus, Oblivion and Aetherius

- {7D/8D} The interplay of Anu and Padomay created the Aurbis

I'm not asking for an upgrade or downgrade on any profiles yet, but I'm curious on your stance here and the standards of evidence you are looking for.

 

[Gwynbleiddd]

I asked for a summurised version and i got walls of text instead.(which i didn't read)

Anyway i'll take a look on the book liminal bridges when i can.

The term hyperagonal seems extremely vague, even if it's used on mathematics (note: i haven't seen it being mentioned anywere).We don't know how many dimension it implies and it doesn't imply that the Et'Ada are of certain number of dimensions themselves.

From the previous thread i remember that someone brought up Septimus Signus talking about at least 2 temporal dimensions which would translate to Akatosh's power and most Et'Ada would powerscale from that.

 

[Mora8]

@Gwynbleiddd

If you want an actual example of the term used in an article:

http://www.magichypercubes.com/Encyclopedia/b/BentHyperagonal.html

It's very clear in context too, in my opinion. In Liminal Bridges it is outright stated to mean or entail extra dimensional.

"Though other hyperagonal media may exist in theory, the only known transliminal artifact capable of sustained transpontine circumpenetration is the Sigil stone. A sigil stone is a specimen of pre-Mythic quasi-crystalline morpholith that has been transformed into an extra-dimensional artifact through the arcane inscription of a daedric sigil."

In Lyranth's statement here, it's fairly apparent to me that they are referring to the cross-section of a Daedra form:

"You think that, because you perceive a superficial resemblance between the outward appearance of the Nightmare Courser and the Hell Hound, that they must share a 'relationship.' Ever the mortal mind defends itself against the reality of what it cannot comprehend by the pathetic imposition of familiar patterns on entities of inconvenient hyperagonal morphology."

Also we can already show that the et'Ada are extra-dimensional in any case based of many other sources. Much more evidence than just the term 'hyperagonal' is relevant to the idea that et'Ada are at least five dimensional.

 

[Hat_mchat]

I'm going to take an opposing stance now and contrary to what i said earlier, extra-dimensional could simply be referring to multi universe. It makes sense if you were to interpret it as that as a sigil stone bridges the gap between different universes.

Also if you try to look up hyperagonal on google, rather than getting a definition or a wikipedia article, you get multiple elder scrolls pages, followed by pages for similar sounding words. I think it's fair to say it is a made up word. True it has the mathematical root word 'hyper' which refers to higher dimensions, but that text also has a lot of familiar sounding jargon.

The point is the text sort of invalidates its implied meaning due to the number of made up words they use. There is no concrete evidence they are referring to spatial dimensions unlike other tier 1 characters which have quantifiable higher dimensional feats.

If you truly think they are higher dimensional, you should take the logical lower bound and say they are high 2-A possibly higher. You should also explain the ambiguity of the rating with the relevant parts from the source texts. Sorry about dragging this thread on, this is sort of my closing opinion now.

 

[SITHISIT]

bump

 

[Shazam121]

As always, we get nowhere with TES lol.

For now, the only opinion I want to share is that the infinite dimensional source is too vague to draw any meaningful conclusions from.

I know Gywn wants a brief explanation of this, but unfortunately this is a complicated subject and it's hard to condense without it losing meaning. You're just going to have to read it if you have any interest in the topic.

So, I just wanted to explain the term hyperagonal as I was the one who seemed to initially introduce it to this wiki. It is admittedly a very niche word, BUT IT'S NOT A MADE UP WORD. I think it pretty certainly has something to do with higher dimensions. I'm going to mainly focus on how the word is used in real life, with a slight nod to how it is used in TES, though Mora covered this quite well.

The word is just a combination of "Hyper" and "r-agonals". We know what "Hyper" is used for in maths. But what are r-agonals? They are a subset of 'space diagonals. Space diagonals are just lines connecting vertices that are not on the same face in a Polyhedron. R-agonals are the form of these that are reserved for magic hypercubes.

From the wiki description of r-agonals:

This section applies particularly to magic hypercubes.The magic hypercube community has started to recognize an abbreviated expression for these space diagonals. By using r as a variable to describe the various agonals, a concise notation is possible....

Here is the term "hyperagonal" being used in the manner described by wikipedia and explained by me, might need to scroll down a little.


Mora has already covered how the term hyperagonal is used in TES: A daedra telling us how mortals cannot properly perceive hyperagonal entities, the mentions of extra dimensional etc.

 

[SITHISIT]

what Shazam said. it's not made up, just very vague but understandable once you do some digging into it.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

It's clearly used as something that refers to things beyond the regular universe due to context, as it is relating to Sigil stones and interplanar travel, but that does not make it a real word.

Even r-agonals, which it seems to be used as a synonym for in the case of said article, are used by very few communities and to such an uncommon extent that Wikipedia can't even get sources on it.

 

[Mora8]

I'll start off with a warning: if any mods are reading this and you are getting tired of this debate, please just say so because I do not have the intent to irritate or burn out anyone here. On the contrary, if anyone is eager to dig into a lot of ES cosmology and dimensional stuff involved, then please by all means reply or message me and we can have a civilised private discussion about this and how it relates to the et'Ada.

If you choose to keep reading, and dismiss the term hyperagonal, I challenge this due to the following reasons:

1. Quite a lot of ideas, superpowers, and so on in fiction are fake and completely unacknowledged by any major scientific body, yet are still acknowledged based on context and/or feats. Why must the term hyperagonal, based on this, require a widely acknowledged scientific definition when it is used clearly in context, is directly stated to entail extra dimensional mechanics, is fictional (not fiction within fiction, but in relation to ES itself as a fictional universe), is refered to in another source again dealing with cross-sections of Daedra/mortal perception and is used four or more times throughout canon in different diverse sources (showing that it is actually acknowledged within the ES verse and not a word a random scholar has made up)? Even when ignoring the word itself, can you not still easily derive the higher dimensional implications from the sources and context?

2. In the same book, Liminal Bridges, it is stated that Daedra can turn things into extra dimensional artefacts. So whether we acknowledge the term hyperagonal or not in the Liminal Bridges book, there is still this. But I still think the term 'hyperagonal' is perfectly valid and ignoring its meaning, the extra dimensional part in Liminal Bridges proves that 'hyperagonal' at least entails extra dimensional mechanics.

3. If we still dismiss the term hyperagonal, we still have a lot more evidence to suggest most et'Ada profiles are at least five dimensional. Any reader can refer to my previous short bullet point summary, which is based off in-context facts which the developers have given and that many, many in-game sources have stated. I can provide any quotes, reasoning or scaling if necessary, just ask.

For now, I'm going to get some sleep.

 

[Shazam121]

Nothing more to add on my part. As I've admitted there are no absolutes in TES, everything is questionable and there is even doubt on whether or not any character in TES should even have a 2-A rating.

Add to that very few people know all that much about TES (me included on many subjects) and it's hard to ever reach any sort of consensus.

I gave my thoughts on the subject before here, with a great deal more detail. Some of it I no longer agree wih and even in that topic we never reached a consensus... not something I expect to change in the near future.

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/667709?useskin=oasis

 

[SITHISIT]

snip

i have an infinite amount of time to do that

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I personally think that the explanation about Hyper r-agonals seems to make sense. The question is whether or not this is sufficient grounds for an upgrade from 2-A to "At least High 2-A".

On the one hand, even 2-A characters are technically higher-dimensional, and on the other I think that hypercubes are supposed to be 5-Dimensional and upwards.

As our Tiering System page says about 2-A:

"Characters who can destroy and/or create a countably infinite number of 4-dimensional universal space-time continuums. Take note that the universes are technically lined up along a 5-dimensional axis, but that their geometrical size still amounts to 0 within this scale."

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Again, the problem is that this is obscenely vague and relies a lot on interpretation and things not directly in the source material. We do not hand out upgrades because something is vague. I would be alright with "possibly higher" after the 2-A due to stuff like this, but I do not like to pedal absolutes where there aren't any.

 

[SITHISIT]

All of the et'ada exist on a higher level than Mundus, the standard multiverse with four spatial dimensions without interpretion.

Combine it with everything else I feel like they deserve the High 2-A rating.

But that is for another time. I'll make a thread in a revision for that. As of right now I still feel like we should deal with the messed up profiles as I first proposed.

 

[Antvasima]

@Azathoth

Okay. Are you willing to handle the "2-A, possibly higher" upgrades, with added copy-pasted footnote explanations about the hyperagonals?

As you know, I am already very busy with all of my monitoring work.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Wait what? Mundus isn't a multiverse. Where is that claim coming from? I cannot find a source for this.

 

[Antvasima]

@Riiingo What are the messed up parts that you want to adjust?