The commoners thread: Discussing Ultima's "On the Many, Many Incoherences of the Tiering System"

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

I have a genuine question. What if a character has a consistent implication in their series of the following: “They can create anything” , “My power is Anything that I want”, “There is literally nothing they cannot do”, “Can do anything” , “Anything that they wish/want/desire becomes reality” , or something along those lines, and there is nothing in the series that indicates that this is contradicted or hyperbole ? Because if Omnipotence as we define it currently is “They can do anything as long as it’s logically possible”, then logically a character who cab seemingly do anything should also be tiered pretty highly.

I understand if they wouldn’t be Tier 0 necessarily if they don’t fit the criteria of it, but this is just a question of what would be the right thing to do in situations like this, and how would one tier it ?

 

[Deagonx]

Probably "Unknown, at least [highest demonstrable feat]."

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Is megami tensei affected by this new system?

yes

 

[Trigger]

yes

How so?

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

How so?

i dunno im not involved with megaten revisions but i only know it's mostly gonna go up.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Severely doubt there’s any verse that isn’t affected by the tiering revision system unless they just, aren’t Tier 1 at all.

 

[Deagonx]

5D is remaining the same I believe.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Like, High 1-C or above, then.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

I have a genuine question. What if a character has a consistent implication in their series of the following: “They can create anything” , “My power is Anything that I want”, “There is literally nothing they cannot do”, “Can do anything” , “Anything that they wish/want/desire becomes reality” , or something along those lines, and there is nothing in the series that indicates that this is contradicted or hyperbole ? Because if Omnipotence as we define it currently is “They can do anything as long as it’s logically possible”, then logically a character who cab seemingly do anything should also be tiered pretty highly.

I understand if they wouldn’t be Tier 0 necessarily if they don’t fit the criteria of it, but this is just a question of what would be the right thing to do in situations like this, and how would one tier it ?

Needs to specifically involve the technical terminology necessary to get to those tiers. So, for instance, High 1-A+ would need to decently expound on logical possibilities and related concepts. And even then the context would need to be pretty exact, since people aren't always using these words in their technical sense (Case in point)

5D is remaining the same I believe.

There probably are a fair few Low 1-C characters who are becoming 1-A.

 

[Trigger]

Needs to specifically involve the technical terminology necessary to get to those tiers. So, for instance, High 1-A+ would need to decently expound on logical possibilities and related concepts. And even then the context would need to be pretty exact, since people aren't always using these words in their technical sense (Case in point)


There probably are a fair few Low 1-C characters who are becoming 1-A.

Most being those who have BDE and RFT

 

[Grabbing_dragon]

There probably are a fair few Low 1-C characters who are becoming 1-A.

Is this 1A feat a higher level,dimensional thier only characters that transcerd dimensions live
https://meo3.comick.pictures/5-CxvNARXjg9hLm.png

 

[Grabbing_dragon]

(Case in point)

here we go again the tiktok wanks are coming

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

There probably are a fair few Low 1-C characters who are becoming 1-A.

I heard through the grapevine that this includes the Endless?

 

[Deagonx]

There probably are a fair few Low 1-C characters who are becoming 1-A.

This has probably been asked and answered before, but I am aware that QS isn't strictly limited to R>F, but were the requirements for it laid out in detail somewhere? I am wary of "QS vibe checks" with no evidence like what happened with that GoW Athena thing.

 

[Grabbing_dragon]

Why is no one helping is it because what am saying is correct

 

[Ultima_Reality]

This has probably been asked and answered before, but I am aware that QS isn't strictly limited to R>F, but were the requirements for it laid out in detail somewhere? I am wary of "QS vibe checks" with no evidence like what happened with that GoW Athena thing.

Part of it was also given in the new Beyond-Dimensional Existence page. The example being that if a realm/character/whatever is aspatial and atemporal and yet simultaneously shown to dwarf normal reality by some size analogue (The Void from Lucifer is probably one of the best examples), it fits the bill.

Generally, "transcends," "beyond," etc, etc is phrasing that won't necessarily qualify you for it, too. Verbal explanations in general have this tricky aspect to them, since there's a lot of impressive-sounding-to-the-battleboarding-mind descriptions that can reasonably be satisfied by Type 1 BDE as well at the end of the day. Not saying this kind of stuff can't ever qualify on its own, of course, but there's this little caveat.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Part of it was also given in the new Beyond-Dimensional Existence page. The example being that if a realm/character/whatever is aspatial and atemporal and yet simultaneously shown to dwarf normal reality by some size analogue (The Void from Lucifer is probably one of the best examples), it fits the bill.

Generally, "transcends," "beyond," etc, etc is phrasing that won't necessarily qualify you for it, too. Verbal explanations in general have this tricky aspect to them, since there's a lot of impressive-sounding-to-the-battleboarding-mind descriptions that can reasonably be satisfied by Type 1 BDE as well at the end of the day. Not saying this kind of stuff can't ever qualify on its own, of course, but there's this little caveat.

What about statements like space beneath/beyond space or unspace/untime?

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

I know like 3 low 1-C characters who will be getting tier 0 lol

 

[Deagonx]

I know like 3 low 1-C characters who will be getting tier 0 lol

I don't see how anything that is a monad would only be 5D or 6D right how. What characters?

 

[Tyranno223]

Only one I know is Eru.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

I don't see how anything that is a monad would only be 5D or 6D right how. What characters?

Krishna (Shree Krishna TV show)

Vasudev, a noble and Devaki, the princess of Mathura had just been married. As they were about to leave for Vasudev's home, Kamsa, Devaki's corrupted brother decided to drive their chariot. Just then, a divine voice announced that the eighth child of Devaki would be the one to kill Kamsa. Evil...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Shiva (Devo ke Dev Mahadev)

Shiva (also called Mahadev) is a character from a TV show called Devo ke Dev Mahadev whose plot revolves around the life of Hindu God Lord Shiva. Mahadev is described as the Supreme deity of whole existence with everything just being a part of him. He can be perceived in infinite forms and...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Mahaganapati (Vighnaharta Shree Ganesha)

Mahaganapati is a supreme deity in Television show named Vighnaharta Shree Ganesha. He's Parabrahman, Paramatman and Parameshvara who is the energy that has created each and everything in the existence and the one inside who all will lost at doomsday. All existence dwells inside him, he is Shiv...

vsbattles.fandom.com

there seems to be a trend

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Krishna (Shree Krishna TV show)

Vasudev, a noble and Devaki, the princess of Mathura had just been married. As they were about to leave for Vasudev's home, Kamsa, Devaki's corrupted brother decided to drive their chariot. Just then, a divine voice announced that the eighth child of Devaki would be the one to kill Kamsa. Evil...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Shiva (Devo ke Dev Mahadev)

Shiva (also called Mahadev) is a character from a TV show called Devo ke Dev Mahadev whose plot revolves around the life of Hindu God Lord Shiva. Mahadev is described as the Supreme deity of whole existence with everything just being a part of him. He can be perceived in infinite forms and...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Mahaganapati (Vighnaharta Shree Ganesha)

Mahaganapati is a supreme deity in Television show named Vighnaharta Shree Ganesha. He's Parabrahman, Paramatman and Parameshvara who is the energy that has created each and everything in the existence and the one inside who all will lost at doomsday. All existence dwells inside him, he is Shiv...

vsbattles.fandom.com

there seems to be a trend

I mean some of the requirements for 0 for some characters are based on Hindiusm to those who scale to Brahman.

 

[Agnaa]

Krishna (Shree Krishna TV show)

Vasudev, a noble and Devaki, the princess of Mathura had just been married. As they were about to leave for Vasudev's home, Kamsa, Devaki's corrupted brother decided to drive their chariot. Just then, a divine voice announced that the eighth child of Devaki would be the one to kill Kamsa. Evil...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Shiva (Devo ke Dev Mahadev)

Shiva (also called Mahadev) is a character from a TV show called Devo ke Dev Mahadev whose plot revolves around the life of Hindu God Lord Shiva. Mahadev is described as the Supreme deity of whole existence with everything just being a part of him. He can be perceived in infinite forms and...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Mahaganapati (Vighnaharta Shree Ganesha)

Mahaganapati is a supreme deity in Television show named Vighnaharta Shree Ganesha. He's Parabrahman, Paramatman and Parameshvara who is the energy that has created each and everything in the existence and the one inside who all will lost at doomsday. All existence dwells inside him, he is Shiv...

vsbattles.fandom.com

there seems to be a trend

This is the funniest outcome. Please find more of these.

Part of it was also given in the new Beyond-Dimensional Existence page. The example being that if a realm/character/whatever is aspatial and atemporal and yet simultaneously shown to dwarf normal reality by some size analogue (The Void from Lucifer is probably one of the best examples), it fits the bill.

Generally, "transcends," "beyond," etc, etc is phrasing that won't necessarily qualify you for it, too. Verbal explanations in general have this tricky aspect to them, since there's a lot of impressive-sounding-to-the-battleboarding-mind descriptions that can reasonably be satisfied by Type 1 BDE as well at the end of the day. Not saying this kind of stuff can't ever qualify on its own, of course, but there's this little caveat.

This feels like it shouldn't be the answer, since Type 2 BDE and QS are separate things (hence why the former, by default, gets Low 1-A, while the latter gets 1-A).

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

This is the funniest outcome. Please find more of these.

This feels like it shouldn't be the answer, since Type 2 BDE and QS are separate things (hence why the former, by default, gets Low 1-A, while the latter gets 1-A).

type 2 BDE is also given to QS it's just specific transcendent voids tend to be on the more ontological superiority side of things

 

[Yasuda_144]

Generally, "transcends," "beyond," etc, etc is phrasing that won't necessarily qualify you for it, too. Verbal explanations in general have this tricky aspect to them, since there's a lot of impressive-sounding-to-the-battleboarding-mind descriptions that can reasonably be satisfied by Type 1 BDE as well at the end of the day. Not saying this kind of stuff can't ever qualify on its own, of course, but there's this little caveat.

What I'm curious about is whether significantly affecting a BDE 1 realm is quantifiable at all, and in if it is, in what circumstances it would be.

After all, even if such realms don't have space and time, if they contain within them beings that are are neither Tier 11 nor Tier 1, that means that they must contain elements that are measurable in some regard (at the very least, the energy said beings use to exert force over material reality).

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Mother Night (Vertigo)

Mother Night is a cosmic being from DC Comics/Vertigo, being the embodiement of the absolute emptiness that predates creation. Introduced in The Sandman: Overture, she is the mother of The Endless. Tier: Low 1-C, possibly 1-C Name: Mother Night Origin: DC Comics/Vertigo Gender: Inapplicable...

vsbattles.fandom.com

This profile is a perfect example of a being that completely lacks dimensions and fits both notions of BDE(1&2) and also has QS over all versions of Creation.

 

[Agnaa]

type 2 BDE is also given to QS it's just specific transcendent voids tend to be on the more ontological superiority side of things

Yeah, but that's sorta my point.

All QS is Type 2 BDE, but not all Type 2 BDE is QS.

So the standards for QS should not be on the BDE page.

 

[Trigger]

Krishna (Shree Krishna TV show)

Vasudev, a noble and Devaki, the princess of Mathura had just been married. As they were about to leave for Vasudev's home, Kamsa, Devaki's corrupted brother decided to drive their chariot. Just then, a divine voice announced that the eighth child of Devaki would be the one to kill Kamsa. Evil...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Shiva (Devo ke Dev Mahadev)

Shiva (also called Mahadev) is a character from a TV show called Devo ke Dev Mahadev whose plot revolves around the life of Hindu God Lord Shiva. Mahadev is described as the Supreme deity of whole existence with everything just being a part of him. He can be perceived in infinite forms and...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Mahaganapati (Vighnaharta Shree Ganesha)

Mahaganapati is a supreme deity in Television show named Vighnaharta Shree Ganesha. He's Parabrahman, Paramatman and Parameshvara who is the energy that has created each and everything in the existence and the one inside who all will lost at doomsday. All existence dwells inside him, he is Shiv...

vsbattles.fandom.com

there seems to be a trend

I just knew someone would bring up these three.
And who could forget about this guy;
Mana-Yood-sushai

 

[Deagonx]

Mother Night (Vertigo)

Mother Night is a cosmic being from DC Comics/Vertigo, being the embodiement of the absolute emptiness that predates creation. Introduced in The Sandman: Overture, she is the mother of The Endless. Tier: Low 1-C, possibly 1-C Name: Mother Night Origin: DC Comics/Vertigo Gender: Inapplicable...

vsbattles.fandom.com

This profile is a perfect example of a being that completely lacks dimensions and fits both notions of BDE(1&2) and also has QS over all versions of Creation.

By what virtue does she have QS?

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Yeah, but that's sorta my point.

All QS is Type 2 BDE, but not all Type 2 BDE is QS.

So the standards for QS should not be on the BDE page.

Happy to discuss that in the main thread. Ordinarily, I'd agree, but this bit of information seemed to be way too tightly bound-up with something that falls under the general concept of BDE to not note it down on that page. If nothing else, I'd feature it both in it and in the generic pages (FAQ, Tiering System).

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

By what virtue does she have QS?

She's the absolute emptiness that preceded all versions of Creation and sees all the worlds as nothing but twinkles of light. Her partner Time can see the time of all Creation even the one Morpheus restored or the version where Daniel Hall is the reincarnation of the Dream as one single continuum and looks upon them as nothing but tarot cards. Night, by definition, is the quasi-equivalent of Lucifer's “Void” no amount of material and volume can match, fill, or even amount to anything to it.

 

[Iiliminal]

I just knew someone would bring up these three.
And who could forget about this guy;
Mana-Yood-sushai

Lmao

 

[Iiliminal]

honestly at this point theres probably a way to argue Low 1-A Fire Force

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

honestly at this point theres probably a way to argue Low 1-A Fire Force

nah

 

[Trigger]

honestly at this point theres probably a way to argue Low 1-A Fire Force

Nah, you'll be surprised it'll get 1-a. Trust me bro.

 

[Iiliminal]

nahhhh not 1-A no way

 

[Yasuda_144]

If Fire Force couldn't get R > F or qualitative superiority in the old system, there's very little chance of getting it in the new one
There might be a scant few verses that are Tier 1 in the new system that weren't in the old, but largely the upgrades are only gonna happen for characters that are already Low 1-C or higher

 

[Trigger]

nahhhh not 1-A no way

If Fire Force couldn't get R > F or qualitative superiority in the old system, there's very little chance of getting it in the new one
There might be a scant few verses that are Tier 1 in the new system that weren't in the old, but largely the upgrades are only gonna happen for characters that are already Low 1-C or higher

I, and by I mean a friend named Daniel has come into contact with Atsushi Ohkub, and I think we stand a good chance.

 

[Yasuda_144]

If by that you mean you're gonna ask a bunch of leading questions he has no context for, that's been tried and failed when it comes to about a bajillion verses.

Plus, the underlying problem is that anti-feats are very hard to dismiss in the new system unless the work is otherwise highly consistent with the basic traits of qualitative superiority.

 

[Trigger]

If by that you mean you're gonna ask a bunch of leading questions he has no context for, that's been tried and failed when it comes to about a bajillion verses.

Plus, the underlying problem is that anti-feats are very hard to dismiss in the new system unless the work is otherwise highly consistent with the basic traits of qualitative superiority.

No, more like having an in-depth explanation for the concept of adola and such.