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The commoners thread: Discussing Ultima's "On the Many, Many Incoherences of the Tiering System"

VeryGoofyToddler said:
Ultima do you count this and this as R>F?
Click to expand...
The first: No. The second: That album is 404'd.

Alexander said:
how specific?because it is not like a fictional world on itself,it is just a world that was created by the ''real world''in the cosmology of the verse,worlds are created using a trascendental programming that allows all possible things to happen according to the programming,even if they sound contradictory.
so this real world,created the ''videogame''using that trascendental programming
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Would need to see specific scans, but if the thing from the fictional world somehow breaks through into the real world on its own, that is in fact an anti-feat.

Elyartaker said:
Hello ultima I needed to ask this from you
is interaction with higher levels of existence via advanced technology considered anti feat for R>F?
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Yeah. Unless there's in-verse factors remediating that. I've already talked a bit here about how ascending to higher and lower layers can be coherent depending on how the verse's cosmology works.
 
You can only interact with reality as fiction if A) a resident of that reality or a higher reality helps, or B) the body and world is fictional but their soul/heart/true self/whatever originates from a higher reality and that is what is used. Otherwise it's an anti-feat.

Basically, fiction can't interact with reality, only reality acting under the guise of fiction can interact with reality.
 
Everything12 said:
You can only interact with reality as fiction if A) a resident of that reality or a higher reality helps, or B) the body and world is fictional but their soul/heart/true self/whatever originates from a higher reality and that is what is used. Otherwise it's an anti-feat.

Basically, fiction can't interact with reality, only reality acting under the guise of fiction can interact with reality.
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There's also more esoteric stuff, like the first two cases here, for instance.

VeryGoofyToddler said:
The first one probably won't but I'll add some extra insight with: this, this, and this.

The second one was this.
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The first is just Scoria talking about how Yahweh doesn't seem to care about anyone or anything other than Lucifer and Michael. Second is just Lucifer using "author/character" poetically to distinguish between "Creator/Ruler" and "Creation/Subject." Third is... nothing, really.

The fourth is just saying the Silver City is outside creation and can observe the universe from that vantage point, which likewise is pretty bad evidence.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
The first is just Scoria talking about how Yahweh doesn't seem to care about anyone or anything other than Lucifer and Michael. Second is just Lucifer using "author/character" poetically to distinguish between "Creator/Ruler" and "Creation/Subject." Third is... nothing, really.
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That's the point. Creation is like a game/book/fiction that God(position) plays with. None of it matters, affects, or changes him unless he wants to interact with them directly which can't work as he can only with aspects or lower emanations.
Ultima_Reality said:
The fourth is just saying the Silver City is outside creation and can observe the universe from that vantage point, which likewise is pretty bad evidence.
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Would it still be 1-A due to superiority over Creation thus time, space, causality, and dimensions? Strictly talking about the City and not the residents other than the Primum Mobile, Lucifer, and Michael.
 
VeryGoofyToddler said:
Would it still be 1-A due to superiority over Creation thus time, space, causality, and dimensions? Strictly talking about the City and not the residents other than the Primum Mobile, Lucifer, and Michael.
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Don't think so, since the Silver City isn't really of a transcendent nature. It's just a regular city built by the Lilim that got whisked away into Heaven, as per Lucifer #50.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
Don't think so, since the Silver City isn't really of a transcendent nature. It's just a regular city built by the Lilim that got whisked away into Heaven, as per Lucifer #50.
Click to expand...
Do you believe in the notion that the Sandman version is closer since it is not Heaven nor Paradise and it's outside in the Void, unlike the Lucifer series?

Mazikeen does say it's still infinite in that same story. If that means much.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
There's also more esoteric stuff, like the first two cases here, for instance.
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How would you describe that? As a unique feature of the cosmology that extends throughout realities that is ontological? enough that it doesn't suggest the sort of continuity that the likes of dimensions do, that would otherwise be an anti-feat?

At least that's how I would describe it, not sure if that would be an accurate description, or SCP is metafictional enough that is can have rules that reality and fiction share that doesn't really harm it's reality-fiction relationship, which is probably helped by all the focus and evidence it gives these relationships.
 
Eseseso said:
I'm just so excited for these next revisions to take an entire year because why would we have anything be easy on this wiki.
Click to expand...
Just the basic logic and overview of Ultima's system is now complete. The next phase will be for the R>F requirements and other things that will be 1-A, and I think it will be an even more difficult revision with a lot of discussions going on. (Especially here the requirements for things like BDE and "omnipotence" will be discussed)

I hope it will be solved somehow. Because it is more important how such systems "work in practice" and this is a kind of "trial and error" method
 
BestMGQScalerEver said:
Chinese SCP:
SYT-Theory-Broken-god.png
Click to expand...
As far as I know, Chinese scp seems to be far more than that.
 
VeryGoofyToddler said:
Do you believe in the notion that the Sandman version is closer since it is not Heaven nor Paradise and it's outside in the Void, unlike the Lucifer series?

Mazikeen does say it's still infinite in that same story. If that means much.
Click to expand...
I don't think so, still, seeing as the Silver City even in Sandman is only described as being outside creation, and not as being superior to it in nature, per se.
 
Unqver said:
This novel only mentions countless dimensions of time and space, without explicitly expressing that dimensions are geometric. When the protagonist's dimension is elevated to four dimensions in the ending, he believes that the entire three-dimensional world was originally a dream, but everything in the dream could also be real

Add the original text：
1, "That's right," Su Jie said This is indeed a paradox, and it is this paradox that can prove that the past, present, and future are all separate processes of development, interconnected but not interfering with each other. This is a divergent trend of countless dimensions, where time and space make up the world, and the world is divergent, not a straight line. You came today and asked me to tell your fortune, but it was actually because of anxiety in your thinking Just like humans, I have developed a fear of the future and my own life and death. Fear of life and death is one of the fundamental characteristics of life
2. "As I said, truth, falsehood, falsehood, truth, and falsehood are all aspects of understanding dimensions. The information that occurs within the dimension you are in is true, and your current state is far from perfect." Su Jie said, "For example, if you think I am fake now, but I can still beat you."
3. Is this very unusual? Your realm is still a bit inferior. Although your consciousness has a very high spiritual content, it is difficult to distinguish between reality and illusion, or to distinguish which dimension matter is in. It can be said that everything is true, even your dreams are actually true, just in different dimensions from us. To distinguish between truth and falsehood, it is actually to distinguish the dimension in which matter is located At this moment, Su Jie had a completely new understanding of reality and illusion.

1，“没错。”苏劫道：“这的确是一个悖论，正是这个悖论，可以证明过去和现在还有未来，都是单独发展的历程，相互之间互有联系，但相互之间，却并不干涉。这是一种无数维度的发散走向，时间和空间组成了世界，而世界，是发散的，不是一条直线。你今天来，让我为你算命，其实是因为你的思维之中产生了不安，你已经和人一样，对于未来，对于自己的生死存亡，有了恐惧心。对生死有恐惧心，这是生命的基本特征之一。”
2，“我说了，真真假假，假假真真，都是对于维度的认识，所发生的信息，在你所处的这个维度之中，就是真的，你现在的境界还差得远。”苏劫道：“比如你现在认为，我是假的，但是我照样可以打你。”
3，这很稀奇么？你的境界还是差了一些，虽然你的意识之中含灵量非常的高，可是很难分辨真实和虚幻，或者说是分辨物质在哪个维度，可以说，任何东西，都是真的，哪怕是你的梦，其实也是真的，只不过和我们在不同的维度而已，我们要分辨真假，实际上就是辨别物质所处的维度。”苏劫此时此刻，对于真实和虚幻，又有了一种全新的理解。
"Deep down inside, you actually don't believe in these mysterious things." Su Jiedao: Although you rely on this to make a living, your heart is very clear. However, cultural and cultural heritage are intangible spiritual wealth, and fate is actually just a kind of fit. It is not so mysterious. Just like a student who studies, some people naturally love mathematics, while others naturally love Chinese. People who love mathematics, even if they don't listen attentively in class, can still get high scores, which is also one of the reasons Fate, innate interest. In psychology, I call it atypical spiritual fit. Of course, as long as a person's spiritual realm reaches a certain level and comprehends the true colorless emptiness, non action and non form, they can fully align with the dimensions of time and space, as well as various great paths. This is called being able to bond with all sentient beings, non sentient beings, and this realm is very high
The mountains, waters, and cultural atmosphere of this place are always present in his spiritual world, or in other words, the soul here and his soul are deeply intertwined.
So Su Jie doesn't need any martial arts dragon veins at all.
Rooted here, spirit here, bloodline here, being in a foreign land, and having a home in the heart, what kind of dragon luck do we need?
Su Jie's spiritual realm has been elevated to an infinite level
The focus of Su Jie's current practice is on breaking through the spiritual level. He mainly uses his own spirit to connect with heaven and earth, time and space, the general trend, and humanity, so that his spirit can truly break through certain limitations, be able to travel freely, break free from constraints, and achieve true freedom and freedom.
In fact, after reaching a certain level of cultivation, people tend to prioritize spiritual cultivation over physical exercise.
The martial arts masters of all time have never been like this.
Even fighters tend to prioritize spiritual cultivation in the end. Because they know that the power of the flesh and blood of the human body is limited, and only the realm of the soul is infinite.
1，你的内心深处，其实根本不相信这些玄之又玄的东西。”苏劫道：“虽然你靠这个吃饭，但你的内心非常清楚。不过文运龙脉这些东西，也就是一种无形的精神财富，而缘分这东西，实际上是一种契合度而已。也并没有那么神秘。就如一个学生读书，有的人天生喜欢数学，有的人则是天生喜欢语文。喜欢数学的人，哪怕是上课不认真听讲，也可以考到高分，这也是一种缘分，与生俱来的兴趣。这在心理学上我称之为非典型精神契合度。当然，只要人的精神境界到达了一定程度，参悟了真正的无色无空，无为无相，就可以和时空维度，各种大道都完全契合。这就叫做和所有众生，非众生都能结缘，此境界，那就非常之高了。”
2此地的山山水水，人文气息，都在他的精神世界中时时刻刻存留着，或者说是这里的魂和他的魂已经心心相印。
所以苏劫根本不需要什么武运龙脉。
根在这里，精神在这里，血脉在这里，身在他乡，心亦有归宿，还要什么龙脉气运呢？
苏劫的精神境界已经提高到一个无限的层次
3苏劫现在修行的重点放在精神层次的突破上,他主要是运用自身的精神和天地、时空、大势、人文相互对接,使得自己的精神真正突破某种限制,能够畅游大千,打破束缚,得到真正的大自在,大自由。
其实修为到达了一定境界的人之后,都把修炼的比重放到心灵修为之上,而不是一味的肉体锻炼。
历来的武学大师,莫不是如此。
哪怕是格斗家,也最后偏重了心灵修行。因为他们知道,人体血肉之躯的力量是有限的,而只有心灵的境界是无限的。
The world is originally a dream, and everything is illusory, but the illusion in the illusion, in the dream, may also be true.
"大千世界，本来一梦，一切虚幻，但虚幻之中的虚幻，梦中之中，也有可能就是真实。
Click to expand...
Additionally, make some modifications. The protagonist ascended to four-dimensional before the grand finale and experienced three lifetimes in the universe. These lifetimes were like reality to him, but the characters inside were unable to interact with the real protagonist. At the end of the grand finale, the protagonist truly believed that the entire world was just an illusory dream
 
Ultima_Reality said:
I don't think so, still, seeing as the Silver City even in Sandman is only described as being outside creation, and not as being superior to it in nature, per se.
Click to expand...
The analogy highlights how the entry of Creation is just a child’s toy which we treated as having QS in their current revision. The scan does seem to depict that.
 
Forgive me if I fudge this somewhat. When Seraph reaches “Nirvana” at the end of DDS? Since “I am the World and the World is me?” Does this not confer tier 0? If the axiom is the highest entity, but everyone else is also the axiom itself? Do they “cancel” each other out? From my brief understanding of Monad, it can’t be if: it is not one, be born from anything, and nothing like it? When Stephen says “surpass” does he mean it similar to this manner? Going back to what it originally was in the first place?
 
It's a valid question. There are tons of examples of fictional character's messing with their higher realities. Relegating that to simple a "anti-feat" for R>F, does an unfair disservice to those characters.
 
Isaiah_ZaMangaka said:
Ah Ultima, I found the original question about that infinite regression thing I was babbling about:

Post in thread 'The commoners thread: Discussing Ultima's "On the Many, Many Incoherences of the Tiering System"'
https://vsbattles.com/threads/the-c...ces-of-the-tiering-system.159822/post-6308227

Post in thread 'The commoners thread: Discussing Ultima's "On the Many, Many Incoherences of the Tiering System"'
https://vsbattles.com/threads/the-c...ces-of-the-tiering-system.159822/post-6318507

Not sure if this’ll help much, but it’s worth a shot. Even through text, my communication be ass sometimes
Click to expand...
Aii so I found this profile, pretty much answers everything I was wondering about. I wasn’t sure if there were any actual examples of what I was trying to convey.
 
Iamunanimousinthat said:
It's a valid question. There are tons of examples of fictional character's messing with their higher realities. Relegating that to simple a "anti-feat" for R>F, does an unfair disservice to those characters.
Click to expand...
That's a fundamental issue with the tiering system.

If you want that to change, you'd have to convince a lotta staff members to vote differently, and do so pretty quickly.
 
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