The commoners thread: Discussing Ultima's "On the Many, Many Incoherences of the Tiering System"

[Everything12]

Also some Kabbalah and Chinese philosophies as well I believe, and probably a bunch of other stuff.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

My immediate thought was Sunyata as the foundation for a cosmology and everything eventually returns to Sunyata and are aspects of Sunyata/avatars of sunyata/ for a verses cosmology and then a verse has something like alayavijana and Amalavijana states of consciousness.

That was my train of thought.

I'm just rambling lol please ignore

 

[Trigger]

Where would Cthulhu Mythos scale to?

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Basically, aliens grant human wishes in exchange for becoming magical girls; which they harvest the emotional energy of to prevent the heat death of the universe. One magical girl has a wish where she travels back in time in order to save Madoka, creating countless alternate universes focused on this one person. The aliens use this to grant Madoka's wish, which causes her ascend to a law of existence divorced from the world and her past self that rewrites the world into one where every magical girl in all universe, past, present, and future were saved.

If it's a case like, "Oh, this amount of magical energy nets [tier lower than 1-A], while this greater amount of the same energy nets [1-A]," then that's indeed something I'd consider an anti-feat. If it's not really a linear increase of this sort, it could potentially be fine, though.

For Last Boss, the context is the universe is a magic spell created by the goddess' mana (energy), and once she left the protagonist turned the universe back into mana and absorbed it to increase her power in order to enter the higher reality. Doubt the context changes anything.

The mana being converted into something of a lower state of existence by the Goddess isn't incoherent on its own, and neither is it returning to that state once the "materialization" of it is destroyed. Largely, the problem lies with the dudes in question absorbing it on their own. I'd indeed consider this an anti-feat in a vacuum.

I think that there are certain approaches in which someone from a lower plane might be able to rise to the higher plane without something that seems like someone of a higher plane pulled them to the higher reality.

Take a cosmology in which you start as a boundless transcendental soul above time and space. Then that essence becomes "limited" by self imposed rules, limiting itself to time and space.

The limited lifeform that appears from that would be limited to time and space. But if there's a way to achieve enlightenment and notice that the limitations aren't absolute and then remove the shackles of time and space, that being could be able to ascend to their original nature.

So, in a way the source of power is of a higher nature, but at that point it's limited to the physical plane in action. In that case, there could be enlightenment methods that use nothing more than inner metaphysical potential.

That's a pretty good example, yeah. Another way to exemplify this would be through a cosmology where all planes of existence are really just a series of descending levels created by some primordial force "materializing" itself more and more at each step.

In that case, absolutely everything is really just one and the same substance, just in a different state (Like how ice, water and vapor are just different states of H2O), and so beings are technically present in all layers simultaneously, and accessing higher realms is really just a matter of "shifting" focus to another layer you're already in.

 

[Everything12]

So the problem lies in interacting with it in terms of absorbing the mana, makes sense.

 

[Lynieryz]

If it's a case like, "Oh, this amount of magical energy nets [tier lower than 1-A], while this greater amount of the same energy nets [1-A]," then that's indeed something I'd consider an anti-feat. If it's not really a linear increase of this sort, it could potentially be fine, though.

Everything has a karmic value, and what happened is that with each timeline altered by Homura in an attempt to save Madoka, Madoka's karmic value increased, and the value increased to the point that her existence started to be defined as the most important thing in the cosmology. The Incubators fulfill wishes through the manifestation of karmic value, and the limit of a wish is defined by the karmic value of the person making the wish. When Madoka's wish was fulfilled, her karmic value was so immense that it caused her to transcend the entire cosmology and become the "Law of Cycles."

 

[Isaiah_ZaMangaka]

That's a pretty good example, yeah. Another way to exemplify this would be through a cosmology where all planes of existence are really just a series of descending levels created by some primordial force "materializing" itself more and more at each step.

In that case, absolutely everything is really just one and the same substance, just in a different state (Like how ice, water and vapor are just different states of H2O), and so beings are technically present in all layers simultaneously, and accessing higher realms is really just a matter of "shifting" focus to another layer you're already in.

This wouldn’t imply continuity though, right? That example kinda sounds similar to something I’ve been wondering for a while: like say a being entering the fictional world by creating an infinite regression until they downgrade into a nature allowing them to finally enter.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

This wouldn’t imply continuity though, right? That example kinda sounds similar to something I’ve been wondering for a while: like say a being entering the fictional world by creating an infinite regression until they downgrade into a nature allowing them to finally enter.

As long as each descension from one state to another is a discrete shift, it doesn't imply continuity between layers in the sense that's harmful to 1-A, no. It's not like the higher state is "dividing" itself until it becomes something lesser.

 

[Agnaa]

I think SCP has R>F dimensions if I'm not mistaken.

You're mistaken.

idk why I see this coming up so much.

The SCP-3812 article says shit along the lines of "R>F differences are kind of like higher dimensions, in that they let higher beings easily manipulate lower ones. But they vastly exceed dimensional differences. We can call them metaphysical dimensions, but we're mostly gonna call them narratives."

Speaking of, Ultima, with all this stuff about R>F jumps sometimes disqualifying themselves from being considered R>F

At the end of the day, all that matters is that the interaction between fiction and reality doesn't come from the fiction's own power.

Would you consider SCP-1304 (a form of ritual murder that, when performed in a piece of fiction, causes an analogue of the murdered character to appear in the world viewing it as fiction which lives a life similar to the fictional one), SCP-2747 (a cluster of symbols and narrative elements that, once accumulated, mutually annihilate a fictional world. The gap left by this mutual annihilation is one of the symbols which can accumulate, causing this process to repeat and travel up a reality-fiction stack), or SCP-3812 (an author wanted to know if they could create something which by definition superseded itself, it did and it quickly started ascending up and up through R>F differences, soon superseding its author) to contradict the legitness of those R>F differences?

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

As long as each descension from one state to another is a discrete shift, it doesn't imply continuity between layers in the sense that's harmful to 1-A, no. It's not like the higher state is "dividing" itself until it becomes something lesser.

Question. Would being able to perceive or look at a "tier 0" being be a contradiction? I assume it would be but just wondering.

 

[Phoenks]

I'm aware that SCP stuff is fully metaphysical territory I just meant they are described that way.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

Got a question.

Will statements like "beyond the concept of space and time" or just being alien to spacetime as a concept qualify for 1-A?

 

[Greatsage13th]

Got a question.

Will statements like "beyond the concept of space and time" or just being alien to spacetime as a concept qualify for 1-A?

no

 

[Deagonx]

Indeed. Anything outside the universe is beyond space and time.

 

[Ben_CleverName]

Indeed. Anything outside the universe is beyond space and time.

I mean... not really. Unless a verse just decides to limit "space" to a single "universe" or the context to such a statement is meant to be "It's outside the space & time of this universe". I agree existing beyond space and time isn't inherently anything transcendental or implying superiority but it seems kind of weird to just assume "anything outside the universe is beyond space". Why wouldn't you just assume the things outside the universe are their own spaces (thus not "outside" of space overall) or are at least part of some different space (excluding more metaphysical things like a dream/spirit world or a realm of consciousness or something)?

 

[Deagonx]

I mean... not really

The word "beyond" means outside of. Any non spatial realm outside of the universe is beyond space and time. It doesn't make them 1-A

And even many spatial realms have indeed been referred to as "beyond space and time."

 

[Agnaa]

Got a question.

Will statements like "beyond the concept of space and time" or just being alien to spacetime as a concept qualify for 1-A?

It sounds like the former would, from what Ultima said:

Why "Beyond the concept of dimensions" ought to be treated as such draws from the above, and has the advantage of being a little.more obvious on what it means. For that, I refer to this explanation instead, which boils down to: If you transcend the idea, the definition, the notion, the quality of "dimension" itself, then you are, definitionally, above any spaces of any amount of dimensions. Doesn't matter if it's 3 or 4 or 6 or aleph_2 or an inaccessible cardinal.

By his argument, I don't see why something "beyond the notion of space/time itself" would be equivalent to higher-dimensional spaces.

Indeed. Anything outside the universe is beyond space and time.

The word "beyond" means outside of. Any non spatial realm outside of the universe is beyond space and time. It doesn't make them 1-A

And even many spatial realms have indeed been referred to as "beyond space and time."

Tread carefully here. You're not Ultima, Ultima has much looser standards, and people currently seem to be lining up to vote for Ultima's standards, including the looseness of what qualifies as 1-A.

 

[Enter_Bluey]

For the last boss thing I just wanna ask, what part about the absorbing the Goddess's mana work makes it an anti-feat? I'm slow on the new stuff Cause yeah MC gains administration over the universe, then they start absorbing the universe and needed the goddess own power to even meet her. Since yeah everything is basically her power

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Would you consider SCP-1304 (a form of ritual murder that, when performed in a piece of fiction, causes an analogue of the murdered character to appear in the world viewing it as fiction which lives a life similar to the fictional one), SCP-2747 (a cluster of symbols and narrative elements that, once accumulated, mutually annihilate a fictional world. The gap left by this mutual annihilation is one of the symbols which can accumulate, causing this process to repeat and travel up a reality-fiction stack), or SCP-3812 (an author wanted to know if they could create something which by definition superseded itself, it did and it quickly started ascending up and up through R>F differences, soon superseding its author) to contradict the legitness of those R>F differences?

The first two are interesting. They don't seem to imply a "structural" continuity between the lower layer and the higher layer, so much as a "causal" continuity, so to speak, so that the fiction can rise to manifest in reality not through its own 'physicality' but solely due to the causal link between the two (E.g. 2747 raising to a higher narrative because the gaping void left behind by a work of fiction that doesn't exist anymore is, itself, a token of it and thus a condition for it to manifest). I wouldn't take holistic stuff like this as anti-feats, no.

Now, as for 3812: He does receive his capability to ascend to higher R>F layers from a being that itself exists in one of said higher layers, but this ability also allows it to ascend further beyond even the being he originally received it from, which muddles the issue, since it implies Ben somehow had the ability to empower a being to the point it transcended even himself (As well as authors above him, who logically would have written him into existence and thus gave him the ability to give 3812 that ability). So, yeah, it indeed makes no sense whatsoever on its own.

Got a question.

Will statements like "beyond the concept of space and time" or just being alien to spacetime as a concept qualify for 1-A?

The latter? No. If the former denotes "You are superior to the concepts of space and time," then obviously it's 1-A, yes. I think a good example of this is this scan.

Although I frankly can't think of a single instance where "Beyond the concept of [cosmic thing]" would not be done in a context indicative of superiority, in general, unlike "Beyond space and time," which indeed has much lower of a bar, but I guess you can come up with a weird edge case where it doesn't mean superiority, if you want to.

 

[Agnaa]

The first two are interesting. They don't seem to imply a "structural" continuity between the lower layer and the higher layer, so much as a "causal" continuity, so to speak, so that the fiction can rise to manifest in reality not through its own 'physicality' but solely due to the causal link between the two (E.g. 2747 raising to a higher narrative because the gaping void left behind by a work of fiction that doesn't exist anymore is, itself, a token of it and thus a condition for it to manifest). I wouldn't take holistic stuff like this as anti-feats, no.

Yeah fair.

Now, as for 3812: He does receive its capability to ascend to higher R>F layers from a being that itself exists in one of said higher layers, but this ability also allows it to ascend further beyond even the being he originally received it from, which muddles the issue, since it implies Ben somehow had the ability to empower a being to the point it transcended even himself (As well as authors above him, who logically would have written him into existence and thus gave him the ability to give 3812 that ability). So, yeah, it indeed makes no sense whatsoever on its own.

I think the idea's more that it's sort of a loophole. If you give something the property "Will become more real than itself, while retaining all of its properties", once that reaches the same level as its creator it would still have that property, despite the creator not being able to directly give that property to objects on its level of reality.

I still think it's reasonable to see that as wack, but I can see the argument behind it, and it's something which SCP articles around this time played with a lot. Operation ÓverMeta involved finding useful fictional beings, and making them real while retaining their properties so they could do useful work.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

The entire DKD comm jumping in joy rn

What the [redacted]. This is actually insane.

We know God is 0. Is Maya at least 1-A and Pralaya High 1-A?

Funnily enough we can get The Divine Creator to 0 as well as it's explicitly stated by DeMatteis that every depiction of God he's made in his works are literally the exact same God.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

Funnily enough we can get The Divine Creator to 0 as well as it's explicitly stated by DeMatteis that every depiction of God he's made in his works are literally the exact same God.

Isn't the Divine Creator seen as TOAA now?

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

We currently treat it as such yes, but IMO , and I'm pretty sure Ultima agrees with me, there is a lot of contradictions to that, especially based on how Divine Creator is described and everything and how much that differs from The One Above All's portrayal (the only thing they share is that their weapon is love, that's kind of it).

Also another thing is that Adam Ka'dmon was retconned completely out of existence in a completely different form when brought into the canon in the newer Man-Thing issues [he's supposed to be bonded to Man-Thing] , and completely retconned what happened in the end of Peter Parker Annual 1999, which makes it already very sus if DeMatteis' portrayal of The Divine Creator still applies to TOAA if they changed such a important aspect of his stories.

 

[Rabbit2002]

Question: What will be the tier of "Non-Having-No-Immortality" in the following paragraphs according to Ultima's new tier? Note: People who cannot visualize, think, visualize.. It also includes characters who possess BDE type 2

But because of this, his eyes opened up a lot, knowing that the ninth layer of immortality without immortality was not the ultimate, I'm afraid, and the real realm was still behind.
There was still the tenth layer of immortality.
But how exactly to name the tenth layer of immortality, Gudunsha himself couldn't even think of it, because it wasn't very appropriate to name it by any name.
There were no words to describe this realm, not even the soul could sense the greatness of this realm, no magnificent words (flowery language) or pictures can depict the billionth part of this realm.
This was the realm after no immortality. Chapter 968

It seemed to be a pagoda, divided into ten layers of immortality, from large to small.
The first tier was the Void Immortality, which was very huge and served as the foundation, the second tier was the Micro Immortality, the third tier was the Small Immortality, the fourth tier was the Medium Immortality, the fifth tier was the Great Immortality, the sixth tier was the Constant Immortality, the seventh tier was the True Immortality, the eighth tier was the Everlasting Immortality, and the ninth tier was the Imperishable Immortality. And the tenth layer was a realm that was difficult to heed.
The tenth layer of the pagoda that Gudunsha's Dragonless Mind Technique condensed into, the highest layer, on which countless Qi, matter, destiny, worlds, beings and even things that were there and not there were brewing and drumming**, and finally, Gudunsha made a sudden movement.
His eyes opened with unprecedented insight.
"I finally understand the realm after the absence of immortality, what is the tenth level of immortality, that is neither immortality nor non-immortality, inexplicable, ineffable, if one is forced to call it, then one can call it 'Non-Having-No-Immortality/Annulled Amaranth"
As soon as the word "Non-Having-No-Immortality" was uttered, in an instant, this pagoda glowed with light, and then dispersed, and then entered Gudunsha's body, transforming into a single ray of light, these rays of light, which were neither rays of light nor non-rays of light, were a realm that everyone could not comprehend.
Gudunsha finally mapped out his future path.
The immortal realm, the eighth layer in front of it, were all immortal, while the ninth layer, were non-immortal.
The tenth layer, on the other hand, was neither immortal nor immortal-less. In other words, it was still feasible for this realm to be called 'Non-Having-No-Immortality'. Chapter 989

At that time, all beings are he and he is all beings, and non-beings are also he and he is also non-beings. All that is tangible is he, and all that is intangible is he, and neither tangible nor intangible is he. That which exists is him, that which does not exist is him, and that which is neither existence nor non-existence is him.
This state is "Non-Having-No-Immortality". Chapter 1010

Just as Gu Chensha spoke, there were pieces of unintelligible, unspeakable, unpredictable, unpredictable, unintelligible, unexplainable, unknowable, unobservable, unresearchable things on the top of his head.
This thing has never happened in the world.
It is neither material nor energy, nor immaterial, nor non-energy, nor mind, nor non-mind. No one can understand what this power is, nor can anyone see what this power is.
Even with the cultivation bases of Wen Hong, Zhuge Ya, Lou Baiyue and others, they couldn't understand what this thing was at all, they seemed to have become stupid.
However, this force soon enveloped them and formed a large cocoon on their bodies.
This big cocoon presents a color that has never been seen in the world. It can even be said that it is not called a color, neither a color nor a non-color.
In short, in the multiverse, even the most advanced creatures, such as Mr. Wuwu, cannot understand what kind of existence this is. It is not that they cannot reach this state, but they cannot imagine and understand that this kind of power is beyond their way of thinking.
What is scary is not the realm that cannot be reached through hard cultivation.
The scary thing is that you can't even imagine the existence of this state, and you can't understand it.
The realm that Gu Chensha is now urging to display is this realm.
This is still one-tenth of the realm of "Non-Having-No-Immortality". - Chapter 1069

 

[Unqver]

Question: What will be the tier of "Non-Having-No-Immortality" in the following paragraphs according to Ultima's new tier? Note: People who cannot visualize, think, visualize.. It also includes characters who possess BDE type 2

Hao Xuan level (crossed out)

 

[Ben_CleverName]

The word "beyond" means outside of. Any non spatial realm outside of the universe is beyond space and time. It doesn't make them 1-A

And even many spatial realms have indeed been referred to as "beyond space and time."

I never said that they would automatically be 1-A. I literally agreed that they wouldn't be. And yes, I know what beyond means, but location implies spatiality by definition. It doesn't necessarily have to be aspatial to be beyond the universe either way, which was my whole point. Being beyond the universe doesn't imply aspatiality.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Funnily enough we can get The Divine Creator to 0 as well as it's explicitly stated by DeMatteis that every depiction of God he's made in his works are literally the exact same God.

Yes, Matteis interpretation of God across his works are 0.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

The Divine Creator is weird, however. Not really of Job Burke but there apparently was a previous primordial Universe of the age different from our age. That Universe before God slept and dreamed of Creation to know hirself better. I asked Matteis and he just said lots of things were going on his head when he made that. Perhaps that Universe had achieved Shamaballa or perhaps it was that Golden Age of perfection but it was weird.

Also, Clieto is a female aspect of God hence why she seemed more powerful than the other Fallen Stars. She very much should be High 1-A.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Hm. Yeah that is pretty weird.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I was rereading Daydreamers and Franklin is quite powerful. He could scale to High 1-A at the very least. I mean if they didn’t get him to change his mind at the end, things could of went south.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

I was rereading Daydreamers and Franklin is quite powerful. He could scale to High 1-A at the very least. I mean if they didn’t get him to change his mind at the end, things could of went south.

Yeah it was crazy. Man-Thing canonically was shown in his works to be able to handle at the very least High 1-A forces as shown in Peter Parker Annual 1999, yet Franklin could casually overload Man-Thing subconsciously and being nowhere near his peak. He also accordingly was messing with the Nexus subconsciously as well.

Not sure why DeMatteis made Franklin so powerful in Daydreamers but I for sure am not complaining

 

[Deagonx]

If the former denotes "You are superior to the concepts of space and time," then obviously it's 1-A, yes. I think a good example of this is this scan.

NGL this just seems like a bog-standard void to me. The fact that a "bubble of cold matter" can protect the stronghold sort of strengthens that to me.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

bog-standard void

Average VSBWoid be like.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Ultima do you suggest the Void/Presence True Nature is 0? It’s very fitting.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Ultima do you suggest the Void/Presence True Nature is 0? It’s very fitting.

There are a few statements in Sandman Universe that make me open to a Tier 0 rating for it. Largely to do with the upper levels of the Sephiroth described at the end of The Dreaming, as well as Lucifer's considerations on the nature of the Void in Lucifer Vol. 2. And Swamp Thing #75 has the final level "past all obstacles" where God resides be described in terms very reminiscent of a monad, too, so that adds to it.

But I'm not particularly sure, since Sandman Overture has one blurb saying that the God attempts to reach "perfect enlightenment," and that existence coming to be within the Void is its mind being clouded as it tries to concentrate. That seems to indicate a level of change and potentiality in the Godhead that might stop it from getting to 0.

 

[Deagonx]

But I'm not particularly sure, since Sandman Overture has one blurb saying that the God attempts to reach "perfect enlightenment," and that existence coming to be within the Void is its mind being clouded as it tries to concentrate. That seems to indicate a level of change and pptentiality in the Godhead that might stop it from getting to 0.

And what of the scan about the Presence being shaped by outside sources?

 

[NHTkenshin2]

I believe the term "monad" is referenced in Lucifer volume 3 as well.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

And what of the scan about the Presence being shaped by outside sources?

There is that, too, yeah. Though I am of the opinion that Yahweh is just the "shaped" version of some underlying formless Godhead, which remains untouched even as he is brought into form, so if anything I'd be just inclined to group the Vertigo God under two keys: Yahweh, the actual, personal God that chats with people and fathered Lucifer and Michael, and the actual God that's one with the Void. I'm really just not that convinced the latter can be 0.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

But I'm not particularly sure, since Sandman Overture has one blurb saying that the God attempts to reach "perfect enlightenment," and that existence coming to be within the Void is its mind being clouded as it tries to concentrate. That seems to indicate a level of change and potentiality in the Godhead that might stop it from getting to 0.

He already did. The message is supporting the views of the Monk who apparently wants to strip everything of Creation so that “God” would as oppose to God already did.

Yahweh mentions himself to be Buddha. If he was created or made then reaching that would make sense. I don’t think the message was that he was trying to reach it, simply what the Monks believed it to be, a weird Tao view probably.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

There is that, too, yeah. Though I am of the opinion that Yahweh is just the "shaped" version of some underlying formless Godhead, which remains untouched even as he is brought into form, so if anything I'd be just inclined to group the Vertigo God under two keys: Yahweh, the actual, personal God that chats with people and fathered Lucifer and Michael, and the actual God that's one with the Void. I'm really just not that convinced the latter can be 0.

Given the rich Gnostic background which formulates the idea of “Gnosis(Mind)” as well as The One(Monad). I say it’s easily that. The idea that everything plays in his mind, where he interacts with some sort of aspect through his actions would not at all limit him.

The Avatar who is God according to Meher Baba is human, yet paradoxically God at the same time. Yahweh was always God, dreams made that logic from an aeterno since the beginning less beginning. This means there was no “point” when Yahweh wasn’t God or where God could be limited after his concealed view(Kabbalah view of God prior to manifestation). It’s definitely make sense, if not God from Matteis shouldn’t be 0 as well.