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The commoners thread: Discussing Ultima's "On the Many, Many Incoherences of the Tiering System"

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Eseseso said:
If we look ONLY at all staff with the right to vote (admins, thread mods, bureaucrats), then we get 10 for and 4 against this, as shown here.

I'm not sure dragging back all these staff to vote would be the best idea since they might not be keen on looking through the many, many pages and paragraphs of argument and reasoning just to see if a minor change to the original argument was made.
Click to expand...
Thread Mods have no voting rights here.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
Thread Mods have no voting rights here.
Click to expand...
Ok, then let's take a look:

Agree​

Antvasima (Agrees as long as the new tiers have detailed requirements)​

Ultima_Reality (Thread Starter)​

DarkDragonMedeus (Agrees with 1-A being the tier for qualitative superiorities to dimensionality, initially neutral on R>F being 1-A by default before eventually agreeing with it too)​

DarkGrath (Agreed with everything at first, failed to change her mind after hearing the counters)​

Elizhaa (Agrees with everything)​

Sir_Ovens (Agrees with everything)​

Andytrenom (Agrees with 1-A being the tier for qualitative superiorities to dimensionality, disagrees with R>F being 1-A by default)​

Everything12 (Agrees with everything)​

​

Disagree​

DontTalkDT (Thinks the notion of composite hierarchies already addresses Ultima's concerns regarding R>F equalization)​

Agnaa (Disagrees with everything)​

Qawsedf234 (Thinks it's unnecessary to create a new system aimed at categorizing all of fiction effectively, as such is impossible)​

​



Yeesh... I knew this vote would end up lopsided, but this is an absolute slaughter in favor of Ultima💀.


So that's 3 against and 8 for.
 
Eseseso said:
I'm not sure dragging back all these staff to vote would be the best idea since they might not be keen on looking through the many, many pages and paragraphs of argument and reasoning just to see if a minor change to the original argument was made.
Click to expand...
I, personally, think that's bullshit, because Ultima prevented me from making any arguments in the thread for two months while those staff members voted.

If you can just decide which of your detractors are allowed to argue while 80% of staff vote, you can end up with something very lopsided, if you pick the person with the worse arguments to go first.

And they don't need to look through pages and paragraphs of argument; just the summaries that people made. I do think it's really lame that other people's summaries were so long, but it is what it is.
 
Eseseso said:
I'm not sure dragging back all these staff to vote would be the best idea since they might not be keen on looking through the many, many pages and paragraphs of argument and reasoning just to see if a minor change to the original argument was made.
Click to expand...
Having people formally reaffirm their positions is important, also. You may think that the possibility of them changing minds is slim, but nevertheless a ceremonial is obviously needed because this probability is never 0. Winging it is obviously not the way to go.
 
Agnaa said:
I, personally, think that's bullshit, because Ultima prevented me from making any arguments in the thread for two months while those staff members voted.

If you can just decide which of your detractors are allowed to argue while 80% of staff vote, you can end up with something very lopsided, if you pick the person with the worse arguments to go first.
Click to expand...
Why did Ultima prevent you from arguing for two months?
Agnaa said:
And they don't need to look through pages and paragraphs of argument; just the summaries that people made. I do think it's really lame that other people's summaries were so long, but it is what it is.
Click to expand...
That's fair enough.
 
Eseseso said:
Why did Ultima prevent you from arguing for two months?
Click to expand...
Because he wanted to focus on talking things out with DT alone.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
Having people formally reaffirm their positions is important, also. You may think that the possibility of them changing minds is slim, but nevertheless a ceremonial is obviously needed because this probability is never 0. Winging it is obviously not the way to go.
Click to expand...
I understand.

Plus I have literally zero power here, so I couldn't stop you if I wanted to.
Agnaa said:
Because he wanted to focus on talking things out with DT alone.
Click to expand...
I see.

In that case I think you are right to want the voters to give reaffirmation, which Ultima seems to support, though I do think both you and Ultima should link the admins to the direct posts with the final summaries.
 
DT did so in the post pinging all staff.
 
Kairach said:
With the new tiering system will the Elder Scrolls lose tier 0? Also what tier will the Dark Tower verse be after this?
Click to expand...
Can I get a statement or an answer on this, unless there's nobody knowledgeable on either of these verses in this discussion.
 
deonment said:
TES keeps its 0
Dark Tower is in a horrible state rn and would need a complete overhaul before people even begin to think about tiers
Click to expand...
Noted, I'm reading the series right now so I'll keep my eyes out for any threads for an overhaul on the verse.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
Having people formally reaffirm their positions is important, also. You may think that the possibility of them changing minds is slim, but nevertheless a ceremonial is obviously needed because this probability is never 0. Winging it is obviously not the way to go.
Click to expand...
Agreed.

Also, could you clarify how stats like Lifting Strength, Speed as well as Acausality and cause and effect will be affected for 1-A or above characters with respect to baseline reality or lower realities. Also what about the cases where the higher reality has normal humans, then how will the stats be indexed with respect to baseline reality and the higher reality from where the humans originate.
 
Audibly laughed at this
GarrixianXD said:
Here's a simple proof of all the contradictions of this discussion:

main-qimg-defccb8af8e263df37d4c2b4e6c7e006-lq
Click to expand...
 
Agnaa said:
Not at it being right/wrong, just about you saying "This is a simple proof of the contradictions" and posting an image of 20 equations.
Click to expand...
Still remember when I created this:

lim {x ==》2} (tan ((x/π+xπℤ)^-(sin^x(θ) + cos^x(θ))))(csc ((1/π+xπℤ)^-(e^xiπ)))(sec ((x/3π+xπℤ)^(e^iπ)))(cot ((1/xπ+xπℤ)^-((e^iθ + e^-iθ/x)^x + (e^iθ - e^-iθ/xi)^x)))
 
Fiction has no consistency, applying everything could be useful for feedback People might find out some flaws in these system while attempting to upgrade on content revision. I have a feeling they might need something like a beta-test.
 
marosuke said:
Fiction has no consistency, applying everything could be useful for feedback People might find out some flaws in these system while attempting to upgrade on content revision. I have a feeling they might need something like a beta-test.
Click to expand...
Set theory isn't fiction honestly.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Touhou does have R > F stuff, which I had originally planned for getting the verse to 1-C alongside some other stuff (it was a very chaotic day in the Touhou revision server when Ultima's thread dropped). So I've been forced to reexamine the logic behind the R > F stuff from a new perspective to make sure it all fits within the new system. There are a lot of anti-feats, but those can hopefully be explained away with how the series explains the mechanics of things becoming more or less real depending on what conceptual state they're in, as well as how one achieves those states. Apart from that, it seems to meet every other criteria, although I won't know for certain until the new guidelines are written out and applied (and I get a chance to see where other verses succeed and fail).

Nah, that's for something else entirely.
Click to expand...
I am sure that the R>F bullshit in this system will be much more difficult than the current R>F. Because R>F in this system also requires BDE to be mandatory. You are either with it or you are nothing.


I think that will be dealt with in part 2, but I can tell you that at least it will become difficult. But let's see, I can't wait to see which verses will downgrade, lose their R>F properties and other things :coffee:
 
Georredannea15 said:
I am sure that the R>F bullshit in this system will be much more difficult than the current R>F. Because R>F in this system also requires BDE to be mandatory. You are either with it or you are nothing.


I think that will be dealt with in part 2, but I can tell you that at least it will become difficult. But let's see, I can't wait to see which verses will downgrade, lose their R>F properties and other things :coffee:
Click to expand...
Wait, I thought the BDE2 requirement was a misunderstanding?
 
Characters with R>F will not need to have statements of BDE, if I understand Ultima's system correctly.

However, they are rated above characters with BDE that don't have statements of being more real, and they will be downgraded if they're shown to be within the dimensionality of less-real things (or more likely, if their real realm is shown to be an extension of the dimensionality of the place they see as less real).
 
I don't know if Ultima will be maintaining the latter type. I figured he'd just have it be 1-A or nothing.
 
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