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The commoners thread: Discussing Ultima's "On the Many, Many Incoherences of the Tiering System"

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Just in case I need to clarify a bit more, the Real Being (A) is made out of that same Real Energy and they give it to the Fictional Being (B), allowing for interaction with other Real Beings. Then that energy gets absorbed by another Fictional Being (C) from Character B, allowing for the same interaction capabilities.
 
Just in case I need to clarify a bit more, the Real Being (A) is made out of that same Real Energy and they give it to the Fictional Being (B), allowing for interaction with other Real Beings. Then that energy gets absorbed by another Fictional Being (C) from Character B, allowing for the same interaction capabilities.
It would be an anti-feat, still Real Energy, no one other than the Real Being or others like them should be able to transfer that energy around. Unless the Real Being gave the Fictional Being the ability to transfer Real Energy.
 
gokuverse level >>>>>> boundless and outerverse fodders
Goku get slammed by the OG Goku.


And with Ultima revision, his last key is tier 0.

Cry with it.
 
Goku get slammed by the OG Goku.


And with Ultima revision, his last key is tier 0.

Cry with it.
goku gokuverse lvl >>>> boundless fodder
 
Which Buddha?
Buddha across fiction can vary. I'm referring to how we're using things like Monad and Buddha in views from a section of Buddhism such as Mahāsāṃghika or Theravada vision of the Buddha as a Supreme entity that was human to gain the ultimate reality or Nirvana which in his “Perfect Enlightenment” became all that is by transcending desire by becoming non non-existence.
 
The bugs bunny one not getting 1-A makes sense cause "lol toonforce user has anvil size anti-feats". Mr. Mxyplx, Idk the 5th dimension is kinda hard locked as a spacial dimension and a realm of imagination which is weird.
 
But that reminds me: What margin of votes from the admins/bureaucrats (aka the only legit votes) would be enough to conclude the thread?
There's no official policy. In theory any majority could pass a revision. In practice it will likely require something more convincing.
 
But that reminds me: What margin of votes from the admins/bureaucrats (aka the only legit votes) would be enough to conclude the thread?
There's no official policy. In theory any majority could pass a revision. In practice it will likely require something more convincing.
It is a good question though. For CRTs do simple majoritys pass? i.e. 4-3 or 5-4.
Please be careful with these sorts of answers. It is a vibe-based thing, but when things are only a few votes off, that usually forces both to come to a compromise.
 
Can you expand on what you mean about being careful? I don't understand my mistake.

It is a vibe-based thing, but when things are only a few votes off, that usually forces both to come to a compromise.
This is true, but it's very situation dependent. In many cases there's no possible compromise.
 
I just don't want you to give off the impression that when there's a 6-5 staff split over whether to give an ability, or nothing at all, that the 6 can just go "Yep, we have the majority, add it."

They'd have to knock it down to a likely/possibly.

When there is no possible compromise, and it's fairly close, we generally try to get more staff members to evaluate it.
 
I agree, I'm not saying that one could/should do that, I am just saying it's sort of ad-hoc. We don't actually have a written policy about it. There's nothing in our rules as written that would prevent a 6-5 thread from passing, per se.

At some point though we should likely make an attempt to clarify that.

IMO I just see a 3 vote difference as the decider but I'm no staff so I have no say in this.
For me it depends on the amount of total votes. For instance, I would consider a 3-1 thread successful, but maybe not 8-6.
 
Buddha across fiction can vary. I'm referring to how we're using things like Monad and Buddha in views from a section of Buddhism such as Mahāsāṃghika or Theravada vision of the Buddha as a Supreme entity that was human to gain the ultimate reality or Nirvana which in his “Perfect Enlightenment” became all that is by transcending desire by becoming non non-existence.
I think you're confusing too many things here.

Nirvana isn't Brahman (Ultimate Reality).

Likewise, Buddha isn't a Supreme being, mostly because that title has too much baggage and misapprehends what the Buddha is.

Also there is no being, Buddha had surpassed the idea of a self to cling to when he attained Enlightenment.

Likewise, Buddha doesn't exist or not exist or non-exist. Buddha's existence cannot be labelled so. When the sutras say "There is no self" they don't mean "The Self is non-existent" because that isn't true. They say there is no view to be held about the self, likewise, there is no view to be held about Buddha's state of existence.

Specifically, this is one of the Unanswered questions within Buddhism;

Then, when it was evening, Ven. Malunkyaputta arose from seclusion and went to the Blessed One. On arrival, having bowed down, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One, "Lord, just now, as I was alone in seclusion, this train of thought arose in my awareness: 'These positions that are undeclared, set aside, discarded by the Blessed One... I don't approve, I don't accept that the Blessed One has not declared them to me. I'll go ask the Blessed One about this matter. If he declares to me that "The cosmos is eternal,"... or that "After death a Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist," then I will live the holy life under him. If he does not declare to me that "The cosmos is eternal,"... or that "After death a Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist," then I will renounce the training and return to the lower life.'

"Lord, if the Blessed One knows that 'The cosmos is eternal,' then may he declare to me that 'The cosmos is eternal.' If he knows that 'The cosmos is not eternal,' then may he declare to me that 'The cosmos is not eternal.' But if he doesn't know or see whether the cosmos is eternal or not eternal, then, in one who is unknowing & unseeing, the straightforward thing is to admit, 'I don't know. I don't see.'... If he doesn't know or see whether after death a Tathagata exists... does not exist... both exists & does not exist... neither exists nor does not exist,' then, in one who is unknowing & unseeing, the straightforward thing is to admit, 'I don't know. I don't see.'"

Ultimately, yes, Buddha would be 0, but because you cannot hold a view about what he is.
 
It really just depends on what school of Buddhism the fiction is being used and if its being used accurately enough to warrant a proper tier.

For example, not every school if Buddhism teaches the idea of an 8th or even a of 9th stage of consciousness.
 
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I think you're confusing too many things here.

Nirvana isn't Brahman (Ultimate Reality).
Nirvana and Buddhahood in some takes is the Ultimate Reality not to be confused with Brahman because Buddhism takes inspiration from Hinduism as well. I was not at all eluding to Ultimate Reality as Brahman just because the idea originates from Hinduism.

Likewise, Buddha isn't a Supreme being, mostly because that title has too much baggage and misapprehends what the Buddha is.
As I said, in some views although not too many. Some do view him as supreme whether as a person or a transcendent being. Sources vary and there are no absolutes though in most cases he is just a human.
Also there is no being, Buddha had surpassed the idea of a self to cling to when he attained Enlightenment.

Likewise, Buddha doesn't exist or not exist or non-exist. Buddha's existence cannot be labelled so. When the sutras say "There is no self" they don't mean "The Self is non-existent" because that isn't true. They say there is no view to be held about the self, likewise, there is no view to be held about Buddha's state of existence.
This is Universal across different interpretations of Buddhism? I know what Enlightenment is and the notion of Self is not exactly the same across multiple takes on Buddhism.
Specifically, this is one of the Unanswered questions within Buddhism;



Ultimately, yes, Buddha would be 0, but because you cannot hold a view about what he is.
That's is the jist that I was getting.
 
It really just depends on what school of Buddhism the fiction is being used and if its being used accurately enough to warrant a proper tier.

For example, not every school if Buddhism teaches the idea of an 8th or even a of 9th stage of consciousness.
Exactly. Religion shouldn't be considered absolute by views because different moral ethics change and bend certain things.

It always depends. It never truly is and Buddhism is no exception. Which honestly should be common sense.
 
Shouldn't Ant's vote be included?
He made it clear at different points during the thread that he was in favor of whatever Ultima was proposing
We're requiring re-votes after the summaries, since I wasn't allowed to present my arguments earlier on in the thread.
 
Nirvana and Buddhahood in some takes is the Ultimate Reality not to be confused with Brahman because Buddhism takes inspiration from Hinduism as well. I was not at all eluding to Ultimate Reality as Brahman just because the idea originates from Hinduism.
The source for Nirvana being the Ultimate reality is from a book called "Buddhism" by Peter Harvey, a famous Scholar on Buddhism and a professor of it, but not from any Sutras. More so, they're taking his assigning of Nirvana being the Ultimate reality as being.

However, I did actually check out their source for that, since I actually love to read what other people who actually know their stuff on Buddhism have to say on the topic and they don't say what the wikipedia article says, for example;

In the self-emptiness view, the ultimate truth is that there is no ultimate reality, no reality with an inherent nature/existence; there are just non-ultimate conventional realities. Seeing Nirvana is seeing emptiness, in the sense of seeing that everything is empty of ultimacy. In the other-emptiness view, while conventional realities are still seen as empty of ultimacy, there is seen to be an ultimate reality, emptiness, which is a positive reality, but is empty of defilements. This is the basis of everything. The self-emptiness view is akin to ideas in early Buddhism in finding no ultimate basis that is the support of everything else. - An Introduction to Buddhism by Peter Harvey, pg. 127
It is a very interesting read, but the entire book is over 500 pages long, only that it covers more than Theravada Buddhism so I plan to give it a good read, though from what I read, it's good.

But the definitions Peter Harvey provides in the book don't line up with Wikipedia's definitions of an Ultimate reality;

Ultimate reality is "the supreme, final, and fundamental power in all reality".[1] This may overlap with the concept of the Absolute in certain philosophies. -Wikipedia
As unconditioned, Nirvana can have no spatial or temporal relationship to anything, even by negation: no place or time can be nearer to or further from it. It is not separate from the conditioned world, but is, as it were, always available to be experienced. As it is also the stopping of conditioned dhammas, this seems to imply that, ultimately, these are not fundamentally real. This connects with some of the things said of the ‘signless’ concentration - An Introduction to Buddhism by Peter Harvey, pg. 96
Doesn't really fit.
As I said, in some views although not too many. Some do view him as supreme whether as a person or a transcendent being. Sources vary and there are no absolutes though in most cases he is just a human.
Kinda true. It depends on where you look, and by this I mean, in certain traditions people venerate Buddha (and other Buddhas) as transcendent beings within Samsara, but they're all ultimately equals in actuality.

This is Universal across different interpretations of Buddhism? I know what Enlightenment is and the notion of Self is not exactly the same across multiple takes on Buddhism.
Yeah, the Pali canon (the source for this) is explicitly canonical to all Buddhist canons. The Great Scripture Store (Chinese canon) and the Buddhavacana (Tibetan canon) have the Pali canon within them.

The Buddhavacana does have some sutta from the Pali canon missing though.

That's is the jist that I was getting.
Yeah, that's good then. I was more so just clarifying on the position of "Ultimate Reality" since Brahman is that and Buddhists specifically argued against Brahman.
 
Yeah, that's good then. I was more so just clarifying on the position of "Ultimate Reality" since Brahman is that and Buddhists specifically argued against Brahman.
Yeah, the point I was also trying to make is something equivalent in nature. Perhaps considering it as some sort of “Ultimate Reality” does make it shaky but I believe the idea was there.

Yeah, most Buddhists do not believe in the notion of Brahman, at least not in that way.
 
I want to say for the record: I feel like the revisions largely just replace our current arbitrary stopping point for R>F with an equally arbitrary stopping point for R>F, and for that reason I feel that the best solution is largely to simply not tier R>F.

I've already said that but I wanted to say it again as my last will and testament before this revision (almost certainly) passes.

It is what it is, though. I'll adapt to the site standards even if I do not always agree with them.
 
I've already said that but I wanted to say it again as my last will and testament before this revision (almost certainly) passes.
Eminem_hollow_purple.png
 
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