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The commoners thread: Discussing Ultima's "On the Many, Many Incoherences of the Tiering System"

Hello.
I'm mostly here regarding the effect of platonic concept if done correctly.

As currently in the wiki independence from the physicality of things or the concept where object participates in is enough for type 1. But there are cases where in as said it doesn't fully follow the philosophy of Platonic concept in a way that they are independent but do not exhibit nor show nature as explained such as (a perfect whole to be reached or achieved. Or neoplatonism and some such)

As now we stopped using platonic and false platonic to determine concept types but carries on some key things like independence from the physicality (theory of forms). Or whatever object is governs. Such as why it is possible for reality to exist first before a certain type 1 comes into existence as long as it is fully established to be completely unaffected by the object it governs etc while also fundamentally governing reality.

Would an argument of true Platonic concept be listed as ontological difference (1-A or something) be included on ways to achieve it. And would concept types remain the same but a true Platonic concept wouldn't just be type 1 but also has tiers for it?

Take note this is for those that fully abides by the philosophy and was described/shown to be and not flimsy verse specific interpretations of it that is limited only to what they take away or make inspiration from the original philosophy.

Edit: another question
Since BDE type 2 will get a pruning on profiles does affected profiles can be argued further to include more necessary details that might actually make them qualify?
 
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I would say that a true platonic concept is definitely 1-A at the very minimum. They're completely independent and detached from the universe, and everything in the universe merely "participates" in them as imperfect replicas, that is to say that everything is just part of more "real" wholeness that are the forms themselves. Space and time are largely irrelevant to the conversation when discussing their ontology.

If a verse was to tastefully use them I could see them being good evidence for qualitative differences.

The difference between something participating in the form of "beauty," and the form of beauty itself, is definitely a qualitative difference.
 
Phoenks said:
I would say that a true platonic concept is definitely 1-A at the very minimum. They're completely independent and detached from the universe, and everything in the universe merely "participates" in them as imperfect replicas, that is to say that everything is just part of more "real" wholeness that are the forms themselves. Space and time are largely irrelevant to the conversation when discussing their ontology.

If a verse was to tastefully use them I could see them being good evidence for qualitative differences.

The difference between something participating in the form of "beauty," and the form of beauty itself, is definitely a qualitative difference.
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Marvel has some faithful uses that would most definitely be 1-A but DC not really (probably).

Here for example in a doctor strange comic Fall Sunrise
image.png

image.png

image.png
 
I do remember DC having a dimension of idea which is what Mr mzxannoyingnametospell explained
Though in DC case they put it like heirarxhy of dimensional existence or something

This was during the whole world forger series/release

Where he kinda tricked supes to enter it but instead he got trapped in a starless area
 
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Ultima_Reality said:
I find that extremely doubtful. Yahweh certainly is a "manifest" version of some deeper underlying principle (Brought into shape by dreams), but he also:

1. Changes (Seen when he leaves creation behind, and outright "detaches" himself from it)
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He chose it for himself. The reason why he did it was to test Michael and Lucifer and to make the message a Creation does not need him. Plus, it was really just an experiment to see how they would react and who would step up for the job.
Ultima_Reality said:
2. Can grant his same position and state of existence to other beings that henceforth become his equals
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It's not meant to make Lucifer an equal. It's meant to say he would be “him.” One unified entity possessed all the traits that he had. He won't be “Lucifer” anymore. He would be God as his Presence is still God. Lucifer won't know his experience or any separation.
Ultima_Reality said:
3. Can be potentially replaced (As seen with the Titan Brothers who became the new faces of God after the Presence left creation, which also ties into how his power does derive from dreams)
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This is not true. Lucifer tells the Titans that powers on that scale take time to be cemented. They weren't becoming Yahweh's equal, they were becoming Elohims’ of Creation by doing what Yahweh was placed to do. Yahweh never needed to be God as seen he can make all rules go back since the beginning. When is the reason the Void has the rule “everything” goes back as the Presence placed it there.

Dreams do not affect him. They just afro mention to help give him a face that humans could understand. He transcends everyone by an infinite margin and Void is part of him. He's the absolute point and he could just do anything. All things derived from him, his “aspect” of Yahweh is still Omnipotent but he wants to interact with Creation. Technically, they're all fiction to him and he doesn't need “any” of them including all Creations. Elaine as God could save all the Creations in the Void but Yahweh was the equal to Buddha in his Perfect Enlightenment state in Nirvana where he is the absolute point.
 
I think that a revision thread to remove the ability from all pages where it has been inappropriately applied seem like a good idea then.
Click to expand...

So... uhh... who gonna do it :unsure:

I don't mind doing it myself
 
Ultima_Reality said:
No.
Click to expand...
Ultima, quick question:

So say a “realer” character temporarily sacrificed their transcendent superiority over a “fiction” character via some construct or device or somethin’ else (reason: to interact with them). Say they’re AP, however, was unchanged. Would that make sense or nah?
 
Chaotic_Existentialist said:
The quote from the interview sort of misaligns with the games where CU was the thing to rise out of humanity while it developed(P3 Club Book) with the axiom in the same interview being defined as what created humanity to begin with.
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I mean it wouldn't be the first Japanese verse I know that does this or something like it, both Yu-Gi-Oh! and Digimon do something similar if not the same
 
deonment said:
I mean it wouldn't be the first Japanese verse I know that does this or something like it, both Yu-Gi-Oh! and Digimon do something similar if not the same
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You'd be picking your poison either way since either interpretation goes against certain statements I just stick to whatever causes the least contradictions
 
In SMT, and by extension Persona, is the Collective Unconscious kinda like Truth from FMA/FMAB? If the All is One and One is All understanding is similar to I am thou, thou art I given the Mental Nature of the verse...Would that grant Megami Tensei tier 0 status under the understanding of Monad?


My own understanding of the concept is quite limited, but a lot of elements from Megami Tensei draw from real world religions and philosophies. Couldn’t help but notice similarities between ideas like Kabbalah, Sacred Geometry, Holographic Principle, and Information Paradox. Ideas like Axiom and Monad also pop up under these searches.


Honestly, I don’t have anything conclusive myself just vague connections that might be pointing to some understood idea, whether that’s the axiom or something greater. Especially when the games throw around ideas similar to things like together we are greater than the sum of our parts and usually the greatest enemy is something humanity created itself. Almost as if all this is happening in the “mind” of one entity fighting against itself or talking to itself? Humanity (me) has the potential to surpass myself (axiom)?


But yeah?
 
Lasting900 said:
In SMT, and by extension Persona, is the Collective Unconscious kinda like Truth from FMA/FMAB? If the All is One and One is All understanding is similar to I am thou, thou art I given the Mental Nature of the verse...Would that grant Megami Tensei tier 0 status under the understanding of Monad?


My own understanding of the concept is quite limited, but a lot of elements from Megami Tensei draw from real world religions and philosophies. Couldn’t help but notice similarities between ideas like Kabbalah, Sacred Geometry, Holographic Principle, and Information Paradox. Ideas like Axiom and Monad also pop up under these searches.


Honestly, I don’t have anything conclusive myself just vague connections that might be pointing to some understood idea, whether that’s the axiom or something greater. Especially when the games throw around ideas similar to things like together we are greater than the sum of our parts and usually the greatest enemy is something humanity created itself. Almost as if all this is happening in the “mind” of one entity fighting against itself or talking to itself? Humanity (me) has the potential to surpass myself (axiom)?


But yeah?
Click to expand...
Under the current interpretation of the verse by VSBW probably not unless they actually will argue Nirvana being above above laws of logic which should theoretically be tier 0 if logical omnipotence qualifies for Tier 0 which is supported by the novels
 
Chaotic_Existentialist said:
Quantum Devil Saga Vol. 5 and also supported by Last Bible as its a world stripped of any sense of individual identity and distinction between anything hence wouldn't abide by two-valued logic either
Click to expand...
You’re saying these are potential pieces of evidence for Tier 0 IF “logical omnipotence” is accepted as a valid pathway for Tier 0 status?
 
Lasting900 said:
You’re saying these are potential pieces of evidence for Tier 0 IF “logical omnipotence” is accepted as a valid pathway for Tier 0 status?
Click to expand...
Yeah. Logical Omnipotence is the ability to do anything logically possible. Logical possibilities function under the laws of thought so if someone>laws of thought they'd be by extension above logical omnipotence
 
Chaotic_Existentialist said:
Yeah. Logical Omnipotence is the ability to do anything logically possible. Logical possibilities function under the laws of thought so if someone>laws of thought they'd be by extension above logical omnipotence
Click to expand...
Wow. Guess I’m patiently waiting for MT to finally earn their Tier 0 status.

What are the biggest barriers to this conclusion, besides this thread’s topic currently for us commoners?
 
Lasting900 said:
Wow. Guess I’m patiently waiting for MT to finally earn their Tier 0 status.

What are the biggest barriers to this conclusion, besides this thread’s topic currently for us commoners?
Click to expand...
They probably wont upgrade it to Tier 0. I used to talk to Milly Rocking Bandit on discord and they never really presented anything that qualifies for Tier 0 despite claiming that VSBW has scans that nobody in the comm does so unless they put the money where their mouths are at and come out with scans that will flip the meta on it's head its not happening based on the currently public evidence. Although VSBW seems to be taking notes from Psbattles's tiering systems and SMT there is rated above the baseline of what boundless in vsbw would be
 
Chaotic_Existentialist said:
If he is the person I think he is he put like the blue channel from backrooms at extended modal realism level, the blank at totality of everything conceivable/indescribability due to self-transcendence and the conceptual sea/pillars at above all attributes
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honestly idk i was playing around im not familiarw ith the standards

Chaotic_Existentialist said:
You and I both know that SMT ***** on backrooms on psbattles especially with the upcoming upgrade
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i didnt even know theres an upgrade do yuall have a disc server send
 
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