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The commoners thread: Discussing Ultima's "On the Many, Many Incoherences of the Tiering System"

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Well, I mean, in that case, not only is "12-D" not popular, but it having a tier by itself doesn't really make much sense to me. What was the basis for it in the first place?
 
Phoenks said:
I mean personally I'd revise the entirety of Tier 1 if I had made the tiering system...

Low 1-C would be strictly 5-D (Just the amount of 5-D characters honestly warrants this in my opinion. It's the catch-all tier for god beings that transcend their realities)
1-C would be 6-D to 9-D (Usually pretty rare dimensionality-wise)
High 1-C would be 10-D to 26-D (A lot of quantum mechanic cosmologies fall within this range. It's a pretty big gap but it makes sense imo. Maybe you could split it somehow, but I still think this makes more sense than cutting off at 11-D)
1-B would be 26-D+
High 1-B would be Aleph-0-D
High 1-B+ would be Aleph-1-D up to any whatever the **** cardinality of dimensions (The amount of verses that actually make a distinction between infinite dimensions and higher-cardinalities of dimensions is probably incredibly limited, so it's probably fair to merge this all together)
Low 1-A would be a collection of all dimensions and space and math whatever you want to call it. Type IV Multiverse. Absolute Infinity. Von Neumann Universe.

After that I guess it's just the ultima stuff.

1-A is existential/ontological/qualitative superiority (relative to the concept of space) and hierarchies of said existential superiority (An example being chains of reality-fiction differences, like in Umineko or the SCP Foundation).
High 1-A is a form of superiority that is ontologically beyond even existential superiorities in the same way that form of superiority is superior to space. Every "layer" of High 1-A would then be another superior system of transcendence. With each one having its own, potentially endless hierarchy of layers as well.
0 is, of course, beyond all systems, superiorities, qualities, quantities, etc. Basically logical omnipotence or negative theology, I guess...
Click to expand...
I like it though I am too sleepy to understand what high 1-A means,
 
Jozaysmith? said:
Tohou project is one
DT is literally a supporter, its going into tier 1 without any second thoughts
Click to expand...
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

Oh, sorry. You were serious? In that case, let me laugh even harder.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
 
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Phoenks said:
I mean, I just don't think the concept of 1-B could be merged with something else lol. To merge finite dimensions with infinite dimensions, or to merge quantum mechanic cosmologies with every higher finite amount of dimensions seems pretty strange.

Do you think so?
Click to expand...
Not really, if not many verses actually utilised "quantum mechanic cosmologies", we wouldn't really need a term for it. Hell, idk how many verses which land in those tiers now actually do because of quantum mechanics.

Similarly, I wouldn't be surprised if we had a tier break at 196,884-D, if a bunch of verses had cosmologies based on the monster group, as SCP once did.
Griess constructed M as the automorphism group of the Griess algebra, a 196,884-dimensional commutative nonassociative algebra over the real numbers
Click to expand...
Phoenks said:
Well, I mean, in that case, not only is "12-D" not popular, but it having a tier by itself doesn't really make much sense to me. What was the basis for it in the first place?
Click to expand...
It was a tier for encompassing or lying just outside of quantum mechanic cosmologies.
 
Phoenks said:
I mean personally I'd revise the entirety of Tier 1 if I had made the tiering system...

Low 1-C would be strictly 5-D (Just the amount of 5-D characters honestly warrants this in my opinion. It's the catch-all tier for god beings that transcend their realities)
1-C would be 6-D to 9-D (Usually pretty rare dimensionality-wise)
High 1-C would be 10-D to 26-D (A lot of quantum mechanic cosmologies fall within this range. It's a pretty big gap but it makes sense imo. Maybe you could split it somehow, but I still think this makes more sense than cutting off at 11-D)
1-B would be 26-D+
High 1-B would be Aleph-0-D
High 1-B+ would be Aleph-1-D up to any whatever the **** cardinality of dimensions (The amount of verses that actually make a distinction between infinite dimensions and higher-cardinalities of dimensions is probably incredibly limited, so it's probably fair to merge this all together)
Low 1-A would be a collection of all dimensions and space and math whatever you want to call it. Type IV Multiverse. Absolute Infinity. Von Neumann Universe.

After that I guess it's just the ultima stuff.

1-A is existential/ontological/qualitative superiority (relative to the concept of space) and hierarchies of said existential superiority (An example being chains of reality-fiction differences, like in Umineko or the SCP Foundation).
High 1-A is a form of superiority that is ontologically beyond even existential superiorities in the same way that form of superiority is superior to space. Every "layer" of High 1-A would then be another superior system of transcendence. With each one having its own, potentially endless hierarchy of layers as well.
0 is, of course, beyond all systems, superiorities, qualities, quantities, etc. Basically logical omnipotence or negative theology, I guess...
Click to expand...
Well I'll be damned, that was beautiful.
 
Ren1999 said:
Does the Cthulhu mythos have R>f? If so, can its R>f meet the requirements for the revision discussed now?
Click to expand...
I do not think Cthulhu Mythos has R>F, but it certainly has ontological/existential superiority, which is qualitative superiority. Even Ultimate Gods and Hypnos couldn't be more blatantly superior to space and time at every level. Lovecraft even uses terms like "Archetypal Infinity" which is very clearly just his absolute interpretation of "infinity" as a concept. And things surpass that.

Effectively it's the same thing as R>F, and there's many levels of that. I think CM has a chance at being Tier 0, even. Yog-Sothoth is supposed to be an encompassment of everything that is, including all qualities and archetypes and everything.
 
Trigger said:
Veldanava and Arcues I'm sure, but what make MGK relevant? Just asking, I'm just confused.
Click to expand...
Bro, most of them have already been bombed not just they.

Don't think that the TD, R>F and BDE requirements in the current system will be the same in this system. They will be much more difficult, much more specific and apply to much rarer situations.
 
Iamunanimousinthat said:
That reminds me that, ontological superiority isn't really defined or given requirements on the wiki.
Click to expand...
It's just a vague way to describe transcendence not of a dimensional nature (like instead of 4-D 5-D etc it'd just be higher planes of existence with various superiorities like being above concepts of lower plane or viewing lower plane as fiction)
 
BestMGQScalerEver said:
It's just a vague way to describe transcendence not of a dimensional nature (like instead of 4-D 5-D etc it'd just be higher planes of existence with various superiorities like being above concepts of lower plane or viewing lower plane as fiction)
Click to expand...
No.

Ontological superiority involves being more real/fundamental. It's not just "everything that isn't dimensional".
 
I think it's pretty self-explanatory. It refers to when something is intrinsically, fundamentally superior in nature to something else. Rather than it being some kind of quantifiable or easily definable gap in nature, the nature itself is simply superior to the nature of something else.

So if you are ontologically superior to space, it means your nature is fundamentally superior to space.
 
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Phoenks said:
I think it's pretty self-explanatory. It refers to when something is intrinsically, fundamentally superior in nature to something else. Rather than it being some kind of quantifiable or easily definable gap in nature, the nature itself is simply superior to the nature of something else.

So if you are ontologically superior to space, it means your nature is fundamentally superior to space.
Click to expand...
Terrible definition. By this argument, it would supersede omnipotence, since omnipotence is easy to define.
 
Agnaa said:
Terrible definition. By this argument, it would supersede omnipotence, since omnipotence is easy to define.
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Yeah, "easily definable" doesn't make much sense there. You could take that out. I meant it in a different way, but I think I got the main point across.
 
Agnaa said:
Terrible definition. By this argument, it would supersede omnipotence, since omnipotence is easy to define.
Click to expand...
Not everyone is omnipotent nor can we quantify omnipotence simply because we define it as one thing or another. So it doesn't really go against what was being said. The definition is sublime but it's scratching the surface of what beings are in nature to be superior to something.
 
At the very least it seems like CM will be High 1-A

Dreamlands already surpass every extension of space-time, which would be 1-A. There's an endless hierarchy of them which are separated by qualitative superiorities, so 1-A+ if that's still a thing.

The Ultimate Void is unreachable by the Dreamlands and seems to also be fundamentally superior in nature due to being outside of the laws and physics present in the dreams. I'd guess that's High 1-A.

After that things get confusing.

Chaotic_Existentialist said:
That'd be funny but SMT prolly gets R>F via Ishtar perceiving the entire narrative of Catherine as a TV show and Adminstrators perceiving the entire reality as a computer program so
Click to expand...
Pretty sure Ultima went over why this isn't enough for his version of R>F.
 
Phoenks said:
At the very least it seems like CM will be High 1-A

Dreamlands already surpass every extension of space-time, which would be 1-A. There's an endless hierarchy of them which are separated by qualitative superiorities, so 1-A+ if that's still a thing.

The Ultimate Void is unreachable by the Dreamlands and seems to also be fundamentally superior in nature due to being outside of the laws and physics present in the dreams. I'd guess that's High 1-A.

After that things get confusing.


Pretty sure Ultima went over why this isn't enough for his version of R>F.
Click to expand...
Before writing this summary, I took the time to do some digging and found that some characters are currently accepted as holding a Reality-Fiction Transcendence over a reality due to some pieces of evidence that are rather underwhelming. These profiles, for instance, treat purely visual depictions of characters viewing reality as TV channels, or a film, as gameboards, as evidence of R>F.

As I've said before, I more or less completely reject the usage of such things as primary evidence for a Reality-Fiction Transcendence. Those would be relegated to being supplementary evidence, at best, but alone would never suffice. And as has already been said, I likewise have very little sympathy for gag feats and the like.
Click to expand...
Yep
 
Phoenks said:
I think it's pretty self-explanatory. It refers to when something is intrinsically, fundamentally superior in nature to something else. Rather than it being some kind of quantifiable or easily definable gap in nature, the nature itself is simply superior to the nature of something else.

So if you are ontologically superior to space, it means your nature is fundamentally superior to space.
Click to expand...
I'd more precisely define an ontological superiority as being just "Your state of existence is so superior that you can't really be expressed as the sum of anything lesser than yourself."

I've had people tell me that this is just an inaccessibly cardinal, or somesuch, but that's not really true. An inaccessible cardinal's "inaccessibility" comes from the fact that it can't be obtained by unions of sets smaller than itself, in smaller quantities than itself. But if you have the union of κ-many sets (Where κ is the inaccessible cardinal), you can in fact obtain it.

An ontological superiority is distinguished from this by the fact it isn't really any such union. There isn't such a thing as "The union of reality-many fictional things is reality," because the gap between the two is not numerical or quantitative whatsoever.
 
Phoenks said:
At the very least it seems like CM will be High 1-A

Dreamlands already surpass every extension of space-time, which would be 1-A. There's an endless hierarchy of them which are separated by qualitative superiorities, so 1-A+ if that's still a thing.

The Ultimate Void is unreachable by the Dreamlands and seems to also be fundamentally superior in nature due to being outside of the laws and physics present in the dreams. I'd guess that's High 1-A.

After that things get confusing.


Pretty sure Ultima went over why this isn't enough for his version of R>F.
Click to expand...
I stopped paying attention to the thread after Ultima and DTDT started throwing bibles at one another. Mind referring me to the specific comment?
 
”Bible” is crazy lmao

But considering the qualifications for R>F Transcendence, i wanna try explaining it in my own words (just to see if I’m understanding it correctly):

1) With a lesser world, there must be a higher world existing beyond it that’s ”more real”. Additionally, there must be no continuity between them (so like you can‘t get there via Dimensional Travel or something?).

2) “Realer” character has to be transcendently more powerful than the “lesser real” world.

3) The “lesser real” character can never be able to interact or harm the “realer“ character on their own. If they can, it’s gotta be through a valid outside mean (like an amp from a “realer” character or some kinda artifact?), otherwise, you’re faced with a contradiction.

Correct me if I’m wrong or missing anything
 
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