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The commoners thread: Discussing Ultima's "On the Many, Many Incoherences of the Tiering System"

Phoenks said:
In certain cases you simply have to.

Not many characters atm are 1-B (Only 69 out of 28,983, or 0.00238%), but it's necessary to have a tier that encompasses all the finite dimensionalities above a certain point, rather than just merging it with something else.
Click to expand...
Most popular tier is tier 2 afaik, looking at the popularity poll, but.... This new upgrade will make most of them tier 1
Tohou project is one
DT is literally a supporter, its going into tier 1 without any second thoughts
 
Phoenks said:
In certain cases you simply have to.

Not many characters atm are 1-B (Only 69 out of 28,983, or 0.00238%), but it's necessary to have a tier that encompasses all the finite dimensionalities above a certain point, rather than just merging it with something else.
Click to expand...
Do you remember that there used to be a Low 1-B? It got merged with 1-B due to only having a dozen or so characters.

Overall, our tiers are very accommodating; they have minimum bars for being achieved. If there was only one character that was 7-D, and every other character capped out at 5-D, our tiering system would end at "Can create/destroy 5-D constructs".

When we first indexed a character that ended up lower than the conventional 11-C definition, we didn't add Low 11-C or tier 12, we changed the definition of 11-C from "0-D" to "0-D or lower".

So, no, how many characters land there is one of the primary considerations of tiers.
 
Agnaa said:
Do you remember that there used to be a Low 1-B? It got merged with 1-B due to only having a dozen or so characters.
Click to expand...
No? I joined in late 2019, I don't remember that being a thing. What was Low 1-B?

Agnaa said:
Overall, our tiers are very accommodating; they have minimum bars for being achieved. If there was only one character that was 7-D, and every other character capped out at 5-D, our tiering system would end at "Can create/destroy 5-D constructs".

When we first indexed a character that ended up lower than the conventional 11-C definition, we didn't add Low 11-C or tier 12, we changed the definition of 11-C from "0-D" to "0-D or lower".

So, no, how many characters land there is one of the primary considerations of tiers.
Click to expand...
I mean, I just don't think the concept of 1-B could be merged with something else lol. To merge finite dimensions with infinite dimensions, or to merge quantum mechanic cosmologies with every higher finite amount of dimensions seems pretty strange.

Do you think so?
 
Well, I mean, in that case, not only is "12-D" not popular, but it having a tier by itself doesn't really make much sense to me. What was the basis for it in the first place?
 
Phoenks said:
I mean personally I'd revise the entirety of Tier 1 if I had made the tiering system...

Low 1-C would be strictly 5-D (Just the amount of 5-D characters honestly warrants this in my opinion. It's the catch-all tier for god beings that transcend their realities)
1-C would be 6-D to 9-D (Usually pretty rare dimensionality-wise)
High 1-C would be 10-D to 26-D (A lot of quantum mechanic cosmologies fall within this range. It's a pretty big gap but it makes sense imo. Maybe you could split it somehow, but I still think this makes more sense than cutting off at 11-D)
1-B would be 26-D+
High 1-B would be Aleph-0-D
High 1-B+ would be Aleph-1-D up to any whatever the **** cardinality of dimensions (The amount of verses that actually make a distinction between infinite dimensions and higher-cardinalities of dimensions is probably incredibly limited, so it's probably fair to merge this all together)
Low 1-A would be a collection of all dimensions and space and math whatever you want to call it. Type IV Multiverse. Absolute Infinity. Von Neumann Universe.

After that I guess it's just the ultima stuff.

1-A is existential/ontological/qualitative superiority (relative to the concept of space) and hierarchies of said existential superiority (An example being chains of reality-fiction differences, like in Umineko or the SCP Foundation).
High 1-A is a form of superiority that is ontologically beyond even existential superiorities in the same way that form of superiority is superior to space. Every "layer" of High 1-A would then be another superior system of transcendence. With each one having its own, potentially endless hierarchy of layers as well.
0 is, of course, beyond all systems, superiorities, qualities, quantities, etc. Basically logical omnipotence or negative theology, I guess...
Click to expand...
I like it though I am too sleepy to understand what high 1-A means,
 
Jozaysmith? said:
Tohou project is one
DT is literally a supporter, its going into tier 1 without any second thoughts
Click to expand...
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

Oh, sorry. You were serious? In that case, let me laugh even harder.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
 
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Phoenks said:
I mean, I just don't think the concept of 1-B could be merged with something else lol. To merge finite dimensions with infinite dimensions, or to merge quantum mechanic cosmologies with every higher finite amount of dimensions seems pretty strange.

Do you think so?
Click to expand...
Not really, if not many verses actually utilised "quantum mechanic cosmologies", we wouldn't really need a term for it. Hell, idk how many verses which land in those tiers now actually do because of quantum mechanics.

Similarly, I wouldn't be surprised if we had a tier break at 196,884-D, if a bunch of verses had cosmologies based on the monster group, as SCP once did.
Griess constructed M as the automorphism group of the Griess algebra, a 196,884-dimensional commutative nonassociative algebra over the real numbers
Click to expand...
Phoenks said:
Well, I mean, in that case, not only is "12-D" not popular, but it having a tier by itself doesn't really make much sense to me. What was the basis for it in the first place?
Click to expand...
It was a tier for encompassing or lying just outside of quantum mechanic cosmologies.
 
Phoenks said:
I mean personally I'd revise the entirety of Tier 1 if I had made the tiering system...

Low 1-C would be strictly 5-D (Just the amount of 5-D characters honestly warrants this in my opinion. It's the catch-all tier for god beings that transcend their realities)
1-C would be 6-D to 9-D (Usually pretty rare dimensionality-wise)
High 1-C would be 10-D to 26-D (A lot of quantum mechanic cosmologies fall within this range. It's a pretty big gap but it makes sense imo. Maybe you could split it somehow, but I still think this makes more sense than cutting off at 11-D)
1-B would be 26-D+
High 1-B would be Aleph-0-D
High 1-B+ would be Aleph-1-D up to any whatever the **** cardinality of dimensions (The amount of verses that actually make a distinction between infinite dimensions and higher-cardinalities of dimensions is probably incredibly limited, so it's probably fair to merge this all together)
Low 1-A would be a collection of all dimensions and space and math whatever you want to call it. Type IV Multiverse. Absolute Infinity. Von Neumann Universe.

After that I guess it's just the ultima stuff.

1-A is existential/ontological/qualitative superiority (relative to the concept of space) and hierarchies of said existential superiority (An example being chains of reality-fiction differences, like in Umineko or the SCP Foundation).
High 1-A is a form of superiority that is ontologically beyond even existential superiorities in the same way that form of superiority is superior to space. Every "layer" of High 1-A would then be another superior system of transcendence. With each one having its own, potentially endless hierarchy of layers as well.
0 is, of course, beyond all systems, superiorities, qualities, quantities, etc. Basically logical omnipotence or negative theology, I guess...
Click to expand...
Well I'll be damned, that was beautiful.
 
Ren1999 said:
Does the Cthulhu mythos have R>f? If so, can its R>f meet the requirements for the revision discussed now?
Click to expand...
I do not think Cthulhu Mythos has R>F, but it certainly has ontological/existential superiority, which is qualitative superiority. Even Ultimate Gods and Hypnos couldn't be more blatantly superior to space and time at every level. Lovecraft even uses terms like "Archetypal Infinity" which is very clearly just his absolute interpretation of "infinity" as a concept. And things surpass that.

Effectively it's the same thing as R>F, and there's many levels of that. I think CM has a chance at being Tier 0, even. Yog-Sothoth is supposed to be an encompassment of everything that is, including all qualities and archetypes and everything.
 
Trigger said:
Veldanava and Arcues I'm sure, but what make MGK relevant? Just asking, I'm just confused.
Click to expand...
Bro, most of them have already been bombed not just they.

Don't think that the TD, R>F and BDE requirements in the current system will be the same in this system. They will be much more difficult, much more specific and apply to much rarer situations.
 
Iamunanimousinthat said:
That reminds me that, ontological superiority isn't really defined or given requirements on the wiki.
Click to expand...
It's just a vague way to describe transcendence not of a dimensional nature (like instead of 4-D 5-D etc it'd just be higher planes of existence with various superiorities like being above concepts of lower plane or viewing lower plane as fiction)
 
BestMGQScalerEver said:
It's just a vague way to describe transcendence not of a dimensional nature (like instead of 4-D 5-D etc it'd just be higher planes of existence with various superiorities like being above concepts of lower plane or viewing lower plane as fiction)
Click to expand...
No.

Ontological superiority involves being more real/fundamental. It's not just "everything that isn't dimensional".
 
I think it's pretty self-explanatory. It refers to when something is intrinsically, fundamentally superior in nature to something else. Rather than it being some kind of quantifiable or easily definable gap in nature, the nature itself is simply superior to the nature of something else.

So if you are ontologically superior to space, it means your nature is fundamentally superior to space.
 
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Phoenks said:
I think it's pretty self-explanatory. It refers to when something is intrinsically, fundamentally superior in nature to something else. Rather than it being some kind of quantifiable or easily definable gap in nature, the nature itself is simply superior to the nature of something else.

So if you are ontologically superior to space, it means your nature is fundamentally superior to space.
Click to expand...
Terrible definition. By this argument, it would supersede omnipotence, since omnipotence is easy to define.
 
Agnaa said:
Terrible definition. By this argument, it would supersede omnipotence, since omnipotence is easy to define.
Click to expand...
Yeah, "easily definable" doesn't make much sense there. You could take that out. I meant it in a different way, but I think I got the main point across.
 
Agnaa said:
Terrible definition. By this argument, it would supersede omnipotence, since omnipotence is easy to define.
Click to expand...
Not everyone is omnipotent nor can we quantify omnipotence simply because we define it as one thing or another. So it doesn't really go against what was being said. The definition is sublime but it's scratching the surface of what beings are in nature to be superior to something.
 
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