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The commoners thread: Discussing Ultima's "On the Many, Many Incoherences of the Tiering System"

Ultima_Reality said:
Yeah. When you hit Tier 0, the distinction between "character" and "place" really just comes down to whether the thing is an intelligence of sorts or if it's just mindless and impersonal.
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In theory could a character some how scale to the Tier 0 cosmology as a smurf for 1 or a few hax?
 
TheUnshakableOne said:
Nah it isn't lol
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Screenshot_20231224-153116_Photo_Editor.jpg
 
Ultima_Reality said:
Pretty much what the mid game fan up there said. All of SCP. Probably Twin Peaks characters. God from Unsong. Most characters from World of Darkness.
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From its description, The Clear Light seems that it would probably still qualify for Tier 0 unless there's something missing. Though I do think its obvious that half of their ratings will be gone.
 
BestMGQScalerEver said:
vsbattles.fandom.com

Jehovah (World of Darkness)

Jehovah, sometimes identified as YHVH, Allah, or simply God, is the Supreme Creator of the Abrahamic Religions, recognized as the one and only God in Christianity, Judaism and Islam, of whose Divine Presence all other divinities in alternate faiths and religions are nothing but pale shadows and...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com

(i think? WoD is a clusterfuck)
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Yeah. WoD is a veritable mess on the wiki so don't pay too much attention to the profiles.
 
Deidalius said:
Are all Tier 0s equally strong?
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Yeah

ÆONS said:
Why exactly?
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Well, a Tier 0 under the proposed system has to be totally undifferentiated and possess no "degrees" to its power and nature, which is one single irreducible totality. God, on paper, is described as such in the story, but in practice:

“Leibniz was studying the I Ching, and he noticed that its yin and yang sticks, when arranged in hexagrams, corresponded to a new form of arithmetic, because he was Leibniz and of course he noticed that. So he invented binary numbers and wrote a letter to the Duke of Brunswick saying that he had explained how God could create the universe out of nothing. It goes like this. You’ve got God, who is 1. You’ve got nothingness, which is 0. And that’s all you need to create everything. 1s and 0s arranged in a long enough string.”

“How, exactly?”

“The kabbalistic conception is that God withdrew from Himself to create the world. I, for example, am beautiful and intelligent, but not so physically strong. God is perfectly beautiful and intelligent and strong, so by withdrawing a little bit of His beauty and intelligence, and a lot of His strength, and some other things, we end up with an Ana.”

“Except you’re not an off-shade of brown,” said Erica.

“And also, God mostly just withdrew from the original universe in such a way that made it have laws of physics that generated you,” I added.

“Same difference,” said Ana.
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So, clearly God's attributes have degrees and differentiation to them, so much so they can be reduced and subtracted to make the universe. That kills any possibility of Tier 0 for him, I'd say.
Eseseso said:
Also, what's the plan regarding Agnaa disagreeing with your stuff?

Does this kill the thread's chances of being accepted?
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I'm decently confident that Agnaa and I can reach an agreement pretty quickly at the rate things are going. Even if we don't, it'll ultimately come down to a vote, so it doesn't really matter, if the opposition's side ultimately finds itself outvoted.
 
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Ultima_Reality said:
Yeah


Well, a Tier 0 under the proposed system has to be totally undifferentiated and possess no "degrees" to its power and nature, which is one single irreducible totality. God, on paper, is described as such in the story, but in practice:


So, clearly God's attributes have degrees and differentiation to them, so much so they can be reduced and subtracted to make the universe. That kills any possibility of Tier 0 for him, I'd say.

I'm decently confident that Agnaa and I can reach an agreement pretty quickly at the rate things are going. Even if we don't, it'll ultimately come down to a vote, so it doesn't really matter, if the opposition's side ultimately finds itself outvoted.
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DT veto

But probably not since he seems to usually just let what majority of people want go through.
 
No, I do not think that we should rate every single aspatiotemporal character's AP/Dura as either Unknown or 1-A or above, when their feats of interacting with reality are consistently 9-A. And I don't think such 9-A feats would contradict them being aspatiotemporal either.
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Imagine being above volume, area and vectors themselves only to die to volume/Area/vector-based 8-C attacks because you somehow face 9-A attacks all day even though its actually supposed to be doing absolutely nothing to you due to the fact it literally can't.

Imagine transcending the fundamental nature of dimensionality itself but the author of the tier-shit work of fiction only makes you make big nice 9-A holes in wall every chapter with your reality warping powers, but god so help him when a building topples the poor character beyond space and time.

Merry Christmas Everybody

Merry ******* Christmas

🎄🎅

I actually don't even wanna talk about the fact that we are comfortable with picking and choosing what level of transcendence counts as an AP feat and what doesn't
If transcendence in the form of BDE Type 2 (transcending dimensions thus lacking them) is not an AP feat to the point that even qualifying for "unknown" is a no no then transcending the 3rd 4th 5th... dimension should not be an AP feat too. I may like the idea of BDE Type 2s getting unknown, 1-A or higher towards accuracy, but I absolutely LOVE and would prefer consistency more. nuke both or keep both. thanks.
 
Arnoldstone18 said:
Imagine being above volume, area and vectors themselves
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Not above, without, was the claim Ultima made.
If a thing doesn't have volume, you can't really equalize it to a volume.
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In fact, I also made it clear that I was just talking about aspatiotemporal characters
every single aspatiotemporal character''s
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Arnoldstone18 said:
only to die to volume/Area/vector-based 8-C attacks because you somehow face 9-A attacks all day even though its actually supposed to be doing absolutely nothing to you due to the fact it literally can't.
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citation needed
Arnoldstone18 said:
Imagine transcending the fundamental nature of dimensionality itself
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Again, not transcending, just lacking.
Arnoldstone18 said:
but the author of the tier-shit work of fiction only makes you make big nice 9-A holes in wall every chapter with your reality warping powers, but god so help him when a building topples the poor character beyond space and time.
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I wasn't so much imagining a building toppling, but a character who can harm aspatiotemporal characters, with other feats and anti-feats limiting their power at 9-A.
Arnoldstone18 said:
If transcendence in the form of BDE Type 2 (transcending dimensions thus lacking them) is not an AP feat
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It is.
Arnoldstone18 said:
to the point that even qualifying for "unknown" is a no no
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I was against "Unknown" in the hypothetical I posited, since it seems like a way of trying to avoid the more accurate rating of 9-A.
 
Agnaa said:
Again, not transcending, just lacking.
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No and yes, respectively

Both type 1 and 2 are lacking.... The entire page is currently based on lacking... So it comes down to context. BDE Type 2 lacks dimensions based on transcending em.

Agnaa said:
Not above, without, was the claim Ultima made.
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I'm 99.9% sure that the context in which Ultima made the claim won't render 'without' and 'above' mutually exclusive. context being BDE Type 2.

Agnaa said:
citation needed
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shut up

Agnaa said:
It is.
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good.

you deserve a kiss. not from me tho until you settle this with ultima :3.

Agnaa said:
I was against "Unknown" in the hypothetical I posited, since it seems like a way of trying to avoid the more accurate rating of 9-A.
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you can't expect characters of such stupid tiershit nature to display tiershit AP unless its fighting other characters of similar or higher nature. Its literally overkill, the character would be better off just ignoring or erasing 9-A problems.

what if the story doesn't call for it?

besides you, probably unknowingly considering you think Ultima wasn't referring to lacking dimensions via transcending them, admitted that transcending dimensions is an AP feat. Wouldn't whet feat take precedence over other insignificant feats?
 
Arnoldstone18 said:
No and yes, respectively

Both type 1 and 2 are lacking.... The entire page is currently based on lacking... So it comes down to context. BDE Type 2 lacks dimensions based on transcending em.
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To be more clear, I was talking about a character that only lacked dimensions, and did not also transcend them.
Arnoldstone18 said:
I'm 99.9% sure that the context in which Ultima made the claim won't render 'without' and 'above' mutually exclusive. context being BDE Type 2.
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Probably, but I do find interrogating why we find volume equalizable for characters that only lack volume, and not transcend it is an interesting one, in that it shows a contradiction.
Arnoldstone18 said:
you can't expect characters of such stupid tiershit nature to display tiershit AP unless its fighting other characters of similar or higher nature.

what if the story doesn't call for it?
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It's one thing to not display tiershit AP constantly. It's another thing to have enough anti-feats to make any tiershit interpretation non-viable.
Arnoldstone18 said:
besides you, probably unknowingly considering you think Ultima wasn't referring to lacking dimensions via transcending them, admitted that transcending dimensions is an AP feat. Wouldn't whet feat take precedence over other insignificant feats?
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When it involves transcending, I'd consider sufficient anti-feats against a higher-tier to indicate that they shouldn't get an ability involving transcending in the first place. That's why I'm focusing on the example of merely lacking.
 
Coolcoolcool. It was good! It led me to add this section to my previous post in the main thread:
Since it has come to my intention that this section is unclear, I should clarify. Despite the conversation having focused on Type 2 BDE, I'm taking a brief detour into Type 1 BDE, to demonstrate a contradiction with the way you're suggesting to treat Type 2 BDE. If you agree that we can equalize something "without volume" to something with a volume for Type 1, you should agree that we can do that for Type 2, at least when, in the case of Type 2, the volume-analogue we're equalizing to is above the volume that's transcended in the character's original setting. And if you don't allow that for Type 1, I'd view your suggested system as quite absurd.
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Agnaa said:
Coolcoolcool. It was good! It led me to add this section to my previous post in the main thread:
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btw i predict he'll stick to not equalizing volume with no volume for type 1 because its literally the wrong thing to do. Essentially making every type 1 character unknown.

which they probably already are, idk any type 1 character that can interact with reality without a host or possessing something or having avatars...
 
Arnoldstone18 said:
btw i predict he'll stick to not equalizing volume with no volume for type 1 because its literally the wrong thing to do. Essentially making every type 1 character unknown.

which they probably already are, idk any type 1 character that can interact with reality without a host or possessing something or having avatars...
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Well yeah, but my idea for how they'd reach that would be through UES shenanigans, scaling, and magic.

Or, if they can toggle their physiology between the two, but some could argue that both would just have different tiers, even though that feels a little wack.
 
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