The commoners thread: Discussing Ultima's "On the Many, Many Incoherences of the Tiering System"

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Dumbass Narrator just had to split them apart. Though, I guess the fact they could be split apart was in itself, an anti-feat.

IMO I just think the verse is 1-A. dunno about tier 0 or high 1-A+ but Ultima might have other words when he plays/reads through the VN since his main concern is the "new absolute reality".

 

[ToaruCounterfeitCRC]

For instance, the Eastern Orthodox Church (according to many) does not adhere to metaphysical simplicity, generally recognizing that the trinity constitutes a "real" distinction. They would, however, assign pretty much all of the other same characteristics. Like God is "that which finds no existence or subsistence in another or any other thing" or "God's ousia has no necessity or subsistence that needs or is dependent on anything other than itself" They'd still adhere to negative theology, the whole bit.

So, the idea that we would render the Roman Catholic version of a Monad "Tier 0" but not the Eastern Orthodox version because they accept that the trinity is not reducible to unity (as that would make the trinity, in essence, an illusion in their view) is really wacky, and the particular issue with this is that I doubt most of the characters that will end up being assigned Tier 0 will explain in enough detail to determine whether or not they meet all these qualities. People will likely just say "welp looks like a Monad to me" and assume it.

Based what I read about Orthodox catechism, this part about the Trinity does not invalidate the Monadhood (that described by Ultima). As you've indicated, Orthodox theologists believe that the Triune God is One and that three persons are co-substantial (of one essence) as much as Catholic theologists do. Inasmuch as, the very person that insists this distinction does not reject divine simplicity himself, noted by many scholars. The Orthodox Church perhaps decides that the energies of God extending to His creation are so much a truth of the divine mysteries that it should not be overlooked (as not real). I argue that it ultimately differs little from how the Kabbalistic idea of Ayin/Ein Sof/Ohr Ein Sof and subsequent Tzimtzum does not affect the monadhood of said Unity.

In fact, all of our understanding of God, what we say about Him, comes from what He has done in the world, from His energies. It is God's energies then that have revealed to us Who He is, and to another degree, it is God's energies that we have participated in. God in His immanence, in His transcendent acts, in His desire to save the human race, has manifested Himself as Trinity.

Lest this conversation of essence and energies appear irrelevant, let me say that without a clear understanding of it, our theology of the Trinity becomes muddled and eventually heretical. We have experienced in God a differentiation, Father, Son and Holy Spirit; and yet we affirm He is one. For Orthodox, the energies of God are distinct from His essence, much like your actions are not you but a distinct extension of you. At the same time we affirm that the energies of God are Divine and uncreated.

Now, what each of the Persons of the Trinity shares totally in, is in the essence. And what each person differs in is contained within their personhood, the way they hypostasize their essence. It is kind of like how your personality is the manifestation of your personhood. Take for example, the procession of the Holy Spirit. Procession can either be shared by all three and thus be part of the essence of God, or, procession of the Holy Spirit can be ascribed to the personhood of one of the three. To ascribe it to more than one is to disrupt the unity or to confuse the personhood (Draw a chart showing those characteristics that are shared by all 3 Persons of the Trinity, like love, and those properties that belong only to one Person of the Trinity, like begotten, fountain head). -- Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America

I digress.

snip

Ultima said he'd be quite strict limiting nonsensical rant's applicability. His argument of Monad's "superiority" based on the lack of metaphysical parts make such requirement unavoidable. I figure it eventually boils down to how we might critique a Monad's Eternal Will (i.e. the entirety of said verse itself) to discern whether or not such a Monad being properly established. I also found your concern in the Staff Thread about the portrayal of a Monad's free will, or the lack thereof, is valid but not fatal. You have said most fictional works will never delve that deep into the subject; I think a distinction between one eternal Will and arbitary free will is almost non-existent when said tier 0 is never protrayed from its own subjective view; on the other hand, any depiction of the subjective view, assuming the lack of understanding from work's author, would almost certainly disqualify the verse. I find certain ways of depicting infinitely transcendent beings as if they're simply more powerful men obnoxious anyway.

 

[Deagonx]

Based what I read about Orthodox catechism, this part about the Trinity does not invalidate the Monadhood (that described by Ultima). As you've indicated, Orthodox theologists believe that the Triune God is One and that three persons are co-substantial (of one essence) as much as Catholic theologists do. Inasmuch as, the very person that insists this distinction does not reject divine simplicity himself, noted by many scholars. The Orthodox Church perhaps decides that the energies of God extending to His creation are so much a truth of the divine mysteries that it should not be overlooked (as not real).

The Orthodox Church doesn't take the metaphysical simplicity doctrine to the same extent, asserting that the three Divine Persons have a real distinction. Ultima's thread incorporates the metaphysical simplicity of folks like Aquinas, disallowing any distinction, not just a unified substance.

We have experienced in God a differentiation, Father, Son and Holy Spirit; and yet we affirm He is one. For Orthodox, the energies of God are distinct from His essence, much like your actions are not you but a distinct extension of you. At the same time we affirm that the energies of God are Divine and uncreated

As such, this understanding of God would be disqualified. The distinction of God's energy and essence is disallowed. That's the reason for my protest, as it is ultimately meaningless.

 

[ToaruCounterfeitCRC]

As such, this understanding of God would be disqualified. The distinction of God's energy and essence is disallowed. That's the reason for my protest, as it is ultimately meaningless.

The issue is that the distinction of God's energy and essence is not an ontological distinction, but rather subjective (or mythical) distinction that extends down to the creation. If such distinction is considered as metaphysical differentiation, a Kabbalistic cosmology would violate Ultima's proposal at the Tzimtzum step. But Ultima has said the concept of Ein Sof embodies tier 0 Monadhood multiple times, I doubt he would say such separation being a disqualifier.

 

[Deagonx]

The issue is that the distinction of God's energy and essence is not an ontological distinction, but rather subjective (or mythical) distinction that extends down to the creation

I don't know what you mean by "ontological distinction" precisely but, for metaphysical composition to be avoided, God's energy and essence must be identical.

The key difference in the Orthodox and Roman views is whether this distinction is real. The Orthodox Church says its real.

If such distinction is considered as metaphysical differentiation, a Kabbalistic cosmology would violate Ultima's proposal at the Tzimtzum step.

I believe Ultima has failed to appreciate just how radical of a doctrine divine simplicity truly is. The only reason the Roman Catholic version wouldn't be disqualified by the Trinity is because they've asserted all of those distinctions are fake.

 

[ToaruCounterfeitCRC]

I don't know what you mean by "ontological distinction" precisely but, for metaphysical composition to be avoided, God's energy and essence must be identical.

It's probably a disagreement on the doctrine of mysticism (or the lack thereof). To me it seems that energy/essence distinction must be real to accommodate the limit of perception of Divine Mystery being real lest one can become God.
What I mean by ontological distinction:

For Orthodox, the energies of God are distinct from His essence, much like your actions are not you but a distinct extension of you. At the same time we affirm that the energies of God are Divine and uncreated

So Orthodoxy denies the energies of God being His ontological component (much like your actions are not you but a distinct extension of you). However they proclaims the energies of God are Divine and uncreated being extension of His ontology.

I believe Ultima has failed to appreciate just how radical of a doctrine divine simplicity truly is.

I agree. Absolute Divine Simplicity is radical, yes. Ultimately, I feel Ultima just wants its doctrine of lacking metaphysical (or better worded as lacking qualitively discriminating) parts to establish supremacy over his previous tiers within the logical framework of this website. His ambitious wording perhaps raises too much concern.

 

[Deagonx]

So Orthodoxy denies the energies of God being His ontological component (much like your actions are not you but a distinct extension of you). However they proclaims the energies of God are Divine and uncreated being extension of His ontology.

To quote some literature on the subject.
"The quintessence of the Palamite error may be states as follows: Between the essence and activity of God there is a real distinction, inasmuch as the latter radiates from the former as something inferior, though still, in a sense, divine. God's different attributes are merely radiations of the Divine Essence, and they solidify as it were by taking on the shape of an uncreated but visible light."

So, the whole "unified essence" thing is not untrue in Orthodoxy, but they stop short of the most extreme form of Simplicity, which is the one being proposed. There is a real distinction of God's attributes.

I agree. Absolute Divine Simplicity is radical, yes. Ultimately, I feel Ultima just wants its doctrine of lacking metaphysical (or better worded as lacking qualitively discriminating) parts to establish supremacy over his previous tiers within the logical framework of this website. His ambitious wording perhaps raises too much concern.

If it were merely a unified essence without physical parts that'd be fine. The idea of a lack of metaphysical distinction insofar as something cannot have attributes is ridiculous in my opinion, and altogether unmeaningful. Perhaps I'm saying the Emperor has no clothes here, but I don't believe it should be instituted within our system.

 

[Tdjwo]

I thought the Tier 0 revision would be more interesting than the Low 1A and 1A thread, but instead, it's probably the most boring thread I've ever seen.

I feel like this time around, everyones just yapping left and right arguing on the same point for 3+ pages. Why is Deagonx even allowed to comment multiple times again? His opinion is just as valueless as mine since we ain't admins or bureaucrats.

 

[Deagonx]

Why is Deagonx even allowed to comment multiple times again?

All staff members are allowed to comment on staff threads, even the ones that cant vote on policy revisions. This includes CGMs and Content Mods as well.

 

[ÆONS]

I thought the Tier 0 revision would be more interesting than the Low 1A and 1A thread, but instead, it's probably the most boring thread I've ever seen.

I feel like this time around, everyones just yapping left and right arguing on the same point for 3+ pages. Why is Deagonx even allowed to comment multiple times again? His opinion is just as valueless as mine since we ain't admins or bureaucrats.

Tier 0 content is 98% philosopher jargon. Quite different from Tiers Low 1-A to High 1-A which at least can be made comprehensible for ordinary users.

 

[Grand_Astartes]

I thought the Tier 0 revision would be more interesting than the Low 1A and 1A thread, but instead, it's probably the most boring thread I've ever seen.

I feel like this time around, everyones just yapping left and right arguing on the same point for 3+ pages. Why is Deagonx even allowed to comment multiple times again? His opinion is just as valueless as mine since we ain't admins or bureaucrats.

Geez take it easy lol. Most of it does seem like yap because T0 in itself is already yap. Doesn't mean the discussion about that yap isn't valuable.

 

[Tdjwo]

All staff members are allowed to comment on staff threads, even the ones that cant vote on policy revisions. This includes CGMs and Content Mods as well.

I see. I'm just confused since you're the only non-admin/bureaucrat who's repeatedly been commenting.

Tier 0 content is 98% philosopher jargon. Quite different from Tiers Low 1-A to High 1-A which at least can be made comprehensible for ordinary users.

I do understand most of what's going on in the thread. I just think the back and forth on the same subtopic is unnecessary at this point.

Geez take it easy lol. Most of it does seem like yap because T0 in itself is already yap, at least imo. Doesn't mean the discussion about that yap isn't valuable.

I never said the discussion wasn't valuable. Where did you get that from?

 

[Deagonx]

I'm just confused since you're the only non-admin/bureaucrat who's repeatedly been commenting.

The amount of staff members who care about TierShit™ is remarkably low.

 

[Grand_Astartes]

Tbf it brings up the question of why a lot of them don't

 

[Tdjwo]

Tbf it brings up the question of why a lot of them don't

Cuz its boring as shit. Same with H1A. Although, ultima's new tier 0 sounds more interesting. But according to what I see in the thread so far, it might become just as boring as the tier 0 we've been using.

 

[Grand_Astartes]

Cuz its boring as shit. Same with H1A. Although, ultima's new tier 0 sounds more interesting. But according to what I see in the thread so far, it might become just as boring as the tier 0 we've been using.

Probably true, I guess also the sheer hyper-focus on a specific thing that seems to be in each system can kind of turn people away from wanting to interact. Last time it was cardinality and whatnot, now this. Not to diss anyone who liked those systems ofc

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

Tbf it brings up the question of why a lot of them don't

Because whether you create a tiering system based on mathematical or metaphysical principles, most of the tier 1 requirements tend to be arbitrary and confusing as hell. I think the recent [Bigger than 2-A=Low 1-C when?] and [Re-evaluation of temporal dimension standards] drama permanently killed off the remaining staff interest in tier 1 stuff. Those revisions pretty much exposed how chaotic it can get when literally every tier 1 expert has a completely different interpretation of the most fundamental standards (I guess that’s what happens when 2 people recreate your whole tiering system from the ground up).

 

[Theoretical_Toxic19]

That, is in and of itself, a definition.

I know this is the ineffability paradox, I know but it misinterprets the notion of negative theology. It can be addressed this way tho.

Take for example a string of propositional variables {x1, x2, x3....}

Such that for every proposition x (the proposition x being that T exceeds some description x), you can take x to be T exceeds intelligibility.

T transcends predicate x (this holds truth value) but can't fully represent T

Hence we move to the other propositions

T transcends the description or predicate x2 (transcends the description of it transcending x1, which this proposition suffices the first proposition) but is not enough to fully capture T.

Frameworks that use negative theology, use it in unison with kataphatic theology. Plotinus and Pseudo-Dionysus take divinity to manifest in various aspects. These aspects are supposed to be a way in which the God-head reveals himself into creation in a manner in which his creation can understand it. They speak about how the one is everything/in everything but is not identical to everything, distinguishing between the one as a generative force (the one when he emanates everything and acts as a source of creation) and the ones totality which still exceeds intellect.

You regularly find this in kabbalah too, where the atzmus represents the essence of God which is absolutely ineffable. However it begins to manifest into creation as ein sof, it's still beyond attributes and somewhat ineffable but not completely because it's restricted to the expression to infinity.

. It creates an attributional black hole where nothing we say, even the things that are meant to establish this framework in the first place, can be accepted. As far as I am concerned, that is illogical and self-defeating.

It's more metaphysical rather than logical but yes. Technical logical in itself is incomplete so it shouldn't be the sole proprietor to judge whether or not certain can actually exist.

From when I asked him, it is. If I remember correctly, he believes that no sensical omnipotence exists besides logical omnipotence. If a being can do it, it's logical. He would not put a being described as able to do "anything logically consistent" and "anything at all, including logically inconsistent things" on different tiers.

Logical omnipotence is incompatible with monadhood tho, there's an issue with how monadhood is tier 0 and exceeds categories and attributes but doesn't exceed logically inconsistent things. Because logical omnipotence is restricted to influencing anything that's logically consistent, which is good because the omnipotence paradox can't be applied to it.

Monadhood doesn't exceed only logically consistent things but anything that falls within intelligibility, since human intellect can grasp logically inconsistent notions. The monad exceeds even that.

The hierarchy starting from 1-A, up to the meta-qualitative hierarchies in turn are incompatible with logical omnipotence too. The qualitative differences are inspired by acosmism, in acosmist frameworks if there's an objective reality and the material world is considered false or illusionary. Then there's no other objective reality that views the lower reality as illusionary too, because it'll be logically inconsistent.

It's like putting something in the category of being real, then having another thing beyond that viewing the one before as illusionary. That means the one that was considered real, is no longer truly under the category being real because it's viewed as illusionary by another Ultimate reality that is categorically considered real as well. The entire proposal was supposed to fix the so called "inconsistencies in the tiering system" but creates even more inconsistencies than the tiering system had beforehand.

For example you can reduce the inconsistencies using the old standards by just redefining qualitative transcendences, instead of just making new standards that are even more inconsistent than the old standards.

Since every hierarchy from 1-A and high 1-A and up, is filled with categorical contradictions. The tier 0 entity which is seemingly logically omnipotent is incompatible with the hierarchy of logical contradictory things that seemingly exist below it. At that point the proposal for high 1-A+ is also logically incoherent. Since modal realism strictly uses classical logic as a modal scope to establish the possibilities.

I'd agree maybe with high 1-A+ if it was metaphysical possibilities, which are regarded as absolute possibilities. Which encompass not only logical possibilities restricted to classical logic, but even non-classical logical systems which are in turn inconsistent with classical logic but consistent with the fundamental nature of reality; like quantum logic.

So the inconsistencies with these standards can be summarized as follows

• Monadhood, is tier 0 but incompatible with logical omnipotence

• Logical omnipotence is incompatible with the hierarchy of r>f below it

• the hierarchy of r>f in itself is logically inconsistency

• The idea of modal realism being high 1-A+ is incompatible with the hierarchy below itself (because the hierarchy in itself is logically inconsistent)

If you compare it to the old standards.

• The only inconsistency is a singular definition of one notion. That being the definition of qualitative gaps or descriptions of it.

Alternatively the current standards can work if there's one r>f ultimate reality and anything beyond it doesn't view the one below it as illusionary. The high 1-A+ standards can work, if they were metaphysical possibilities instead of logical possibilities.

 

[Agnaa]

The yappers have breached containment.

 

[GrathOfLux]

The yappers have breached containment.

 

[Kairach]

Is Singular Point gonna become outer?

 

[AdamVhenJP]

Is Singular Point gonna become outer?

Not sure, but they're a hyperspace or Hyperverse

 

[Unqver]

question：What will be gained from the following description?

Spoiler

Prototype
"Everything has its prototype, at least the existence that can be called is like this."The previously unfriendly, but now very friendly Metamorphosis Domain Transcender spoke so politely, proving that Su Zhou' s years of exploration and search have been effective: "Songs have prototypes, drawings have prototypes, mathematics has prototypes, order has prototypes... Everything, even life and story, has prototypes."
[The great beings... that is, the prototypes, their names are the meanings of the prototypes they choose]
[原型]

[一切都有着原型，至少能被称呼的存在就是如此]

那位当初很不友好，现在很友好的象形之域超越者如此道，祂的谈吐相当客气，证明苏昼这么多年时间的探索和寻觅有所成效:[歌曲有着原型，图画有着原型，数学有着原型，秩序有着原型.....任何事物，甚至包括生命与故事，也都有着原型]

[伟大存在.....也就是原型们，祂们的称谓，就是他们选择的原型之意义]

Do the unattainable supreme gods and ultimate origins in mythology also have a prototype
If there really exists a prototype for the supreme meanings of religion, mythology, fantasy, and philosophy, such as the "Dao" of the day of the strong character, the "Brahma" without beginning or end, the omniscient and omnipotent "Lord", and the absolute existence of “The one. ..."
Can such a prototype represent 'true correctness'
Including all our correctness, even further correctness, can fulfill our wishes and make our love more vibrant
神话中那些不可企及的至高神，终极的本源，是否也有一个[原型]?]

[强字之日的“道”、无始无终的梵”、全知全能的“主”、绝对存在的“太....这些宗教、神话、幻想、哲学上的至高意义如果真的存在一个[原型]的话]

[那样的原型，是否能代表‘真正的正确'? ]

[包涵我们所有的正确，甚至更进一步的正确，能够达成我们的愿望，令我们的爱更加发扬的正确.....

No one can answer me?

 

[Deidalius]

No one can answer me?

I can, that's clearly High 3-A

 

[Unqver]

I can, that's clearly High 3-A

bro，It's not funny.

 

[Karabach-barabach]

bro，It's not funny.

What did you expect? Not enough context

 

[Grand_Astartes]

No one can answer me?

I wouldn't even say High 3-A, there's like no context for anything at all just rambling. From my personal interpretation it just sounds like it is talking about concepts

 

[Unqver]

What did you expect? Not enough context

Then, let me introduce the most powerful stepping stone (torrent) at this level first.

 

[Unqver]

Then, let me introduce the most powerful stepping stone (torrent) at this level first.

Spoiler: torrent

Whether it's insects, ants, flowers, plants, houses, crowds, cities, countries, civilizations, planets, suns, galaxies; Whether it is the plane, the world, the universe, or even all the spatiotemporal complexes, they are essentially consistent.
That's all a derivative of the the one Mixed element just like the unpolarized Tai Chi, which divides yin and yang, and the black and white two colors give rise to endless things. The essence of all things is the divine power flowing out of the Tai Yi Hun Yuan, so all things are with thethe one Mixed elemente. Except for the the one Mixed element , everything is a "meaningless nothingness"
Stepping out from the summit of this dream world, one can transcend from the dream and become a presence in the real world.
This is what is called 'soaring', transforming from illusion to reality and becoming a higher level existence.
The emptiness nurtures reality, and sentient beings in reality dream, just like the Tai Chi of yin with yang and yin with yang.
Staring at the illusion in the foam, then turning to look around at the infinite foam illusion in the infinite void, Su zhou slowly nodded: "In the world of existence, all living beings dream and imagine; in the world of nothingness, the world condenses in dreams.... Existence and nothingness, bubble and reality, so mixed into infinity, is indeed a torrent."

the one Mixed element swallowed Su zhou into his diverse embryonic form of the "Dream of emptiness", and then, with infinite divine power, transformed his diverse embryonic form into a larger level of spatiotemporal emptiness dream Not only that, the robe began to stack infinitely, trying to suppress Su zhou and seal it in the infinite cycle of dreams! Su zhou attempted to break free from his dreams and return to his true self. Even though his torrential path is infinite and eternal, and the elements of 'absolute' have not yet been fully understood, the young man who has created Candle Day Sky can fully guarantee his absolute reality.
At that moment, with Su zhou's thoughts, he walked out of his dream and became real
.
A person has inspiration in their mind, and the relationship between inspiration and people is the first layer of illusion and reality. Inspiration diverged, leading him to write a book, and the relationship between this book and inspiration is the second layer of illusion and reality.
The characters in the book are naturally divided into the existence of ink and the existence without ink, one is the character, and the other is the background board. The relationship between the background board and the characters is the third layer of illusion and reality.
And the character of this background board, which was not described in the book and unknown to both the reader and the author, had a dream. The relationship between the dream and the characters on the background board in this book is the illusion and reality of the fourth layer.
People and books, books and people in books, people in books also have dreams, and in this book, which may even have never been written before, passersby in people's dreams also have dreams, and this dream still has dreams in dreams
Su Day was sealed at the farthest end of the Infinite Dream. He wanted to jump out of the infinite layer, but there was still an infinite layer waiting for him to continue climbing.

The delusional Creator and the True Realm possess the power to regulate delusions and come true at will. Any avenue, any creature, any mind, any technique, any thing, any realm, any knowledge and thought, all things and phenomena are reflected in the mirror of the Robe, and the truth is acknowledged.

无论是虫蚁，花草，房屋，人群，城市，国家，文明，星球，太阳，星系;无论是位面，世界，宇宙乃至于一切的时空统合体，本质上都是一致的。

那都是“太一混元’的衍生一- -正 如同无极化太极，太极分阴阳，而黑白二色又衍生出无穷无尽的万物，万物本质都是太一混元流淌而出的神力，故而万物皆与太一混元同在。除却太一混元外， 一切的万事万物都是‘没有意义的虚无’
从这梦中世界山巅走出，就能从梦中超脱，成为真实界的存在。

这便是所谓的‘飞升’，从虚幻成为真实，成为更高等等阶的存在。

空无中孕育着真实，而真实中的众生做着梦，正如阴中有阳，阳中有阴的太极。

凝视着泡沫中的幻影，然后转过头，环视无限空无中的无限泡沫幻影，苏昼缓缓点头:“存在的世界中，众生做梦想象;而虚无的世界中，梦中凝聚世界....存在与虚无，泡影与真实，如此混一化作无限，不愧是洪流啊。”
太一混元将苏昼吞入自己的多元雏形的‘空无之梦’中，然后又以无限的神力，将自己的多元雏形化作更大层次时空的空无之梦.....不仅仅如此，袍开始无限次的叠加，要将苏昼镇压，封印在梦中梦中梦的无限循环中!
苏昼尝试性地挣脱梦幻，将自己复归真实，即便他的洪流之道是无限与永恒’，‘绝对’之要素还没有领悟完全，但已经造就了烛昼天的青年完全可以保证自己的绝对真实。

登时，随着苏昼的意念，他就从梦中走出，成为了真实。
不过，在走出的瞬间，苏昼就立刻察觉,自己如今所在的真实，仍然是一一个‘梦’。

“有意思。

他笑了起来，又是一步迈出，而这一步，却不仅仅是攀登一层，而是犹如一步三界般，一步击碎无限层次的梦境封印，直接抵达最顶层的真实。

登时，太一混元塑造的无穷封印破碎了-一但苏昼却微微皱眉。

因为他还在梦幻之中。

苏昼继续迈步，但无论他突破几次梦幻与真实构筑的太极，无论“飞升’多少次，他都无法攀登至顶端一一即 便是无限次的飞升，仍然还有无限高的‘相对真实'去追逐。

虚幻与真实的轮回，一次又一次超脱，一次又一次的飞升，也不过是进入又一一个虚幻的轮回。

苏昼可以确保自己是真实的，但没有办法抵达‘绝对的真实’。

一个 人脑海中有灵感， 灵感发散，这灵感与人的关系，便是第一层的虚幻与真实。
灵感发散，令他下笔写成了一本书，这书与灵感的关系，便是第二层的虚幻与真实。

书中的人物自然是分下了笔墨的存在和没有下笔墨的存在之分，一个是角色，一个是背景板，这背景板和角色之间的关系，便是第三层的虚幻和真实。

而这背景板的角色，在书没有讲述，读者和作者都不知道的情况下做了一个梦，这书中之梦和背景板人物的关系，便是第四层的虚幻和真实。

人与书，书与书中人，书中人亦有梦，而在这个甚至可能从未有过笔墨的书中人之梦内的路人亦有梦，这梦仍然有梦中梦.....

苏昼就被封印在那无穷之梦的最远端，他想要跳出一层，跳出无限层，仍然有无限的一层等待着他继续去攀爬。

妄心造物主和真界，就具备这样随意调控妄想和成真的力量，任何大道，任何生灵，任何心智，任何技法，任何事物，任何境界，任何所知所想，万物万象，都是袍们的镜中倒映，以及承认之真。

Positioned as, great being >transcendent>torrent

 

[AdamVhenJP]

Spoiler: torrent

Whether it's insects, ants, flowers, plants, houses, crowds, cities, countries, civilizations, planets, suns, galaxies; Whether it is the plane, the world, the universe, or even all the spatiotemporal complexes, they are essentially consistent.
That's all a derivative of the the one Mixed element just like the unpolarized Tai Chi, which divides yin and yang, and the black and white two colors give rise to endless things. The essence of all things is the divine power flowing out of the Tai Yi Hun Yuan, so all things are with thethe one Mixed elemente. Except for the the one Mixed element , everything is a "meaningless nothingness"
Stepping out from the summit of this dream world, one can transcend from the dream and become a presence in the real world.
This is what is called 'soaring', transforming from illusion to reality and becoming a higher level existence.
The emptiness nurtures reality, and sentient beings in reality dream, just like the Tai Chi of yin with yang and yin with yang.
Staring at the illusion in the foam, then turning to look around at the infinite foam illusion in the infinite void, Su zhou slowly nodded: "In the world of existence, all living beings dream and imagine; in the world of nothingness, the world condenses in dreams.... Existence and nothingness, bubble and reality, so mixed into infinity, is indeed a torrent."

the one Mixed element swallowed Su zhou into his diverse embryonic form of the "Dream of emptiness", and then, with infinite divine power, transformed his diverse embryonic form into a larger level of spatiotemporal emptiness dream Not only that, the robe began to stack infinitely, trying to suppress Su zhou and seal it in the infinite cycle of dreams! Su zhou attempted to break free from his dreams and return to his true self. Even though his torrential path is infinite and eternal, and the elements of 'absolute' have not yet been fully understood, the young man who has created Candle Day Sky can fully guarantee his absolute reality.
At that moment, with Su zhou's thoughts, he walked out of his dream and became real
.
A person has inspiration in their mind, and the relationship between inspiration and people is the first layer of illusion and reality. Inspiration diverged, leading him to write a book, and the relationship between this book and inspiration is the second layer of illusion and reality.
The characters in the book are naturally divided into the existence of ink and the existence without ink, one is the character, and the other is the background board. The relationship between the background board and the characters is the third layer of illusion and reality.
And the character of this background board, which was not described in the book and unknown to both the reader and the author, had a dream. The relationship between the dream and the characters on the background board in this book is the illusion and reality of the fourth layer.
People and books, books and people in books, people in books also have dreams, and in this book, which may even have never been written before, passersby in people's dreams also have dreams, and this dream still has dreams in dreams
Su Day was sealed at the farthest end of the Infinite Dream. He wanted to jump out of the infinite layer, but there was still an infinite layer waiting for him to continue climbing.

The delusional Creator and the True Realm possess the power to regulate delusions and come true at will. Any avenue, any creature, any mind, any technique, any thing, any realm, any knowledge and thought, all things and phenomena are reflected in the mirror of the Robe, and the truth is acknowledged.

无论是虫蚁，花草，房屋，人群，城市，国家，文明，星球，太阳，星系;无论是位面，世界，宇宙乃至于一切的时空统合体，本质上都是一致的。

那都是“太一混元’的衍生一- -正 如同无极化太极，太极分阴阳，而黑白二色又衍生出无穷无尽的万物，万物本质都是太一混元流淌而出的神力，故而万物皆与太一混元同在。除却太一混元外， 一切的万事万物都是‘没有意义的虚无’
从这梦中世界山巅走出，就能从梦中超脱，成为真实界的存在。

这便是所谓的‘飞升’，从虚幻成为真实，成为更高等等阶的存在。

空无中孕育着真实，而真实中的众生做着梦，正如阴中有阳，阳中有阴的太极。

凝视着泡沫中的幻影，然后转过头，环视无限空无中的无限泡沫幻影，苏昼缓缓点头:“存在的世界中，众生做梦想象;而虚无的世界中，梦中凝聚世界....存在与虚无，泡影与真实，如此混一化作无限，不愧是洪流啊。”
太一混元将苏昼吞入自己的多元雏形的‘空无之梦’中，然后又以无限的神力，将自己的多元雏形化作更大层次时空的空无之梦.....不仅仅如此，袍开始无限次的叠加，要将苏昼镇压，封印在梦中梦中梦的无限循环中!
苏昼尝试性地挣脱梦幻，将自己复归真实，即便他的洪流之道是无限与永恒’，‘绝对’之要素还没有领悟完全，但已经造就了烛昼天的青年完全可以保证自己的绝对真实。

登时，随着苏昼的意念，他就从梦中走出，成为了真实。
不过，在走出的瞬间，苏昼就立刻察觉,自己如今所在的真实，仍然是一一个‘梦’。

“有意思。

他笑了起来，又是一步迈出，而这一步，却不仅仅是攀登一层，而是犹如一步三界般，一步击碎无限层次的梦境封印，直接抵达最顶层的真实。

登时，太一混元塑造的无穷封印破碎了-一但苏昼却微微皱眉。

因为他还在梦幻之中。

苏昼继续迈步，但无论他突破几次梦幻与真实构筑的太极，无论“飞升’多少次，他都无法攀登至顶端一一即 便是无限次的飞升，仍然还有无限高的‘相对真实'去追逐。

虚幻与真实的轮回，一次又一次超脱，一次又一次的飞升，也不过是进入又一一个虚幻的轮回。

苏昼可以确保自己是真实的，但没有办法抵达‘绝对的真实’。

一个 人脑海中有灵感， 灵感发散，这灵感与人的关系，便是第一层的虚幻与真实。
灵感发散，令他下笔写成了一本书，这书与灵感的关系，便是第二层的虚幻与真实。

书中的人物自然是分下了笔墨的存在和没有下笔墨的存在之分，一个是角色，一个是背景板，这背景板和角色之间的关系，便是第三层的虚幻和真实。

而这背景板的角色，在书没有讲述，读者和作者都不知道的情况下做了一个梦，这书中之梦和背景板人物的关系，便是第四层的虚幻和真实。

人与书，书与书中人，书中人亦有梦，而在这个甚至可能从未有过笔墨的书中人之梦内的路人亦有梦，这梦仍然有梦中梦.....

苏昼就被封印在那无穷之梦的最远端，他想要跳出一层，跳出无限层，仍然有无限的一层等待着他继续去攀爬。

妄心造物主和真界，就具备这样随意调控妄想和成真的力量，任何大道，任何生灵，任何心智，任何技法，任何事物，任何境界，任何所知所想，万物万象，都是袍们的镜中倒映，以及承认之真。

Positioned as, great being >transcendent>torrent

Probably be 1-A or High 1-B

 

[Unqver]

Probably be 1-A or High 1-B

The protagonist breaks through infinite layers of dreams (each layer is the gap between reality and illusion), and then only a dream on a higher level. The upper level is also infinite, and there are even higher levels above the infinite upper level. This is an infinite cycle, and the first infinite layer is already H1-B, right? (Perhaps according to Ultima's rules, it will be above 1-A?)

 

[Agnaa]

We don't even know what the new tiers are going to be yet, particularly between Low 1-C and High 1-B. Chill out people.

 

[Deleted member 30746]

Ultima, do you think Void from Lucifer is suitable for High 1-A?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Ultima, do you think Void from Lucifer is suitable for High 1-A?

Personally, I do. If Ultima doesn't then I'll talk with him.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I feel like Night should be High 1-A, the Void should be High 1-A+, and Yahweh's true form is 0.

 

[Deleted member 30746]

I feel like Night should be High 1-A, the Void should be High 1-A+, and Yahweh's true form is 0.

This means that endless members are also High 1-A. But that's hard when Ultima says there isn't even a QS for Silver City.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

This means that endless members are also High 1-A. But that's hard when Ultima says there isn't even a QS for Silver City.

I’m still discussing that with him.

 

[Reiner04]

Funny tho genuine question, Indian soap Operas Tier 1-A, 0, or none?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Funny tho genuine question, Indian soap Operas Tier 1-A, 0, or none?

If he/she is equivalent in the form of Para Brahman then yes. The profile and show as I remember seem to suggest 0 or at the very least High 1-A+.

 

[Vietthai96]

probably he gonna have two keys, with a True Form key being that high