The commoners thread: Discussing Ultima's "On the Many, Many Incoherences of the Tiering System"

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

I'd be fine with closing the voting now tbh @Ultima_Reality @IdiosyncraticLawyer

Every admin who has said they'll look at it has done so, with a pretty clear leaning, and Ant won't be back from vacation for 3 weeks.

No. We have 27 admin-level and above staff, and only 9 have voted so far. I'll ping everyone who hasn't again.

 

[Vietthai96]

No. We have 27 admin-level and above staff, and only 9 have voted so far. I'll ping everyone who hasn't again.

But there is admin who not really interesting in tiering part, i remember Griffin want to avoid tier 1

 

[Phoenks]

How many of those staff actually care or know about the subject material enough to have a counting vote, though? I would guess a lot of them just downright aren't interested or simply don't have enough of an opinion or knowledge about tier 1/0 to be confident in voting.

I think trying forcing those people to vote isn't a good thing...

 

[Agnaa]

If DarkGrath is still planning to vote, we can wait for her, and for Firestorm's clarification, but it seems like most just don't care enough. Bambu and Crab have told me they won't vote.

 

[Vietthai96]

Tbf, my honest opinion on this is we need to be flexible when it come to vote right, on one hand, we have admins but not really invest in the subject, on the other hand, we have thread mods who lower rank than admin but have knowledge on tiering and these subject, hell, even @Executor_N0 who is calc group staff, have insane knowledge on these subjects

 

[Georredannea15]

I'd be fine with closing the voting now tbh @Ultima_Reality @IdiosyncraticLawyer

Every admin who has said they'll look at it has done so, with a pretty clear leaning, and Ant won't be back from vacation for 3 weeks.

Are only the votes of admins and bureaucrats counted in such wiki-wide revisions? It's not something I find very logical, but if that's the case, will we wait any longer? Or are you just going to end it? Because the current situation is 5-3 (counting only admins and bureaucrats).

It's actually 6 to 3 on the board but Ultima wants Firestorm to make his idea more clearer.

 

[Kairach]

I just want it to pass so people who think they know how to scale using math can stop, of course there will still be people who use math in scaling but having one of the biggest scaling communities go against the idea of math making you tier 0 would help with the discourse on off site stuff. It will also just boost better written series to the higher tiers, making it so those better written series get more recognition, it's a win win.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

I just want it to pass so people who think they know how to scale using math can stop, of course there will still be people who use math in scaling but having one of the biggest scaling communities go against the idea of math making you tier 0 would help with the discourse on off site stuff. It will also just boost better written series to the higher tiers, making it so those better written series get more recognition, it's a win win.

We'll probably just be forcing TikTok scalers to do philosophyslop instead of mathslop now. It will be pretty damn funny, at least.

 

[Kairach]

I have such a dry sense of humor that I can't tell if he was going on with the joke or not. Nevertheless, the voting so far has been good as it has not been that long since it was open. People just have to be patient.

I was continuing the joke.

 

[Agnaa]

Are only the votes of admins and bureaucrats counted in such wiki-wide revisions? It's not something I find very logical, but if that's the case, will we wait any longer? Or are you just going to end it? Because the current situation is 5-3 (counting only admins and bureaucrats).

It's actually 6 to 3 on the board but Ultima wants Firestorm to make his idea more clearer.

I think the answer to this is pretty clear from the post you're quoting, and the responses to it.

I just want it to pass so people who think they know how to scale using math can stop, of course there will still be people who use math in scaling but having one of the biggest scaling communities go against the idea of math making you tier 0 would help with the discourse on off site stuff. It will also just boost better written series to the higher tiers, making it so those better written series get more recognition, it's a win win.

The series ending up in higher tiers, before or after this change, are not the better written ones.

 

[Kairach]

We'll probably just be forcing TikTok scalers to do philosophyslop instead of mathslop now. It will be pretty damn funny, at least.

philosophy is a lot harder to prove than math imo, so it would be funny seeing people trying to prove something is a platonic concept rather than the series just dropping a cardinal or saying it has a type 4 multiverse or whatever.

 

[Agnaa]

philosophy is a lot harder to prove than math imo, so it would be funny seeing people trying to prove something is a platonic concept rather than the series just dropping a cardinal or saying it has a type 4 multiverse or whatever.

Plato gets invoked in fiction a lot more than Mahlo.

If you're hoping that this move in systems will lead to less out-of-context wank, you're very mistaken.

 

[Vietthai96]

If someone want to wank, they gonna wank nonetheless, regardless of what path leading to it, be it mathematic, or philosophies

 

[Georredannea15]

philosophy is a lot harder to prove than math imo, so it would be funny seeing people trying to prove something is a platonic concept rather than the series just dropping a cardinal or saying it has a type 4 multiverse or whatever.

Personally, I think it is easier to explain the true platonic forms in a verse than explain to mahlo and other large cardinals. Which means that wanks and assumptions will increase everywhere

 

[Kairach]

Plato gets invoked in fiction a lot more than Mahlo.

If you're hoping that this move in systems will lead to less out-of-context wank, you're very mistaken.

there will still be wank, yes, but less stuff that people can just drop into the argument and instantly win. "Your verse doesn't have a type 4 multiverse so mine wins" type of arguments that get thrown around a lot, with the changes I've seen proposed it seems like you need a lot more proof to reach the high tiers, with bigger gaps between 1As, a lot more strict, which is how every system should be.

 

[Kairach]

Personally, I think it is easier to explain the true platonic forms in a verse than explain to mahlo and other large cardinals. Which means that wanks and assumptions will increase everywhere

Can you give me any examples of times where this is true? From what I've seen you can just name drop cardinals and get high tiers with it.

 

[Vietthai96]

Actually, we can't get tier via just namedrop cardinal, unless said cardinal have evidences that it is actually scale, underlying the structure of the cosmology

 

[Agnaa]

there will still be wank, yes, but less stuff that people can just drop into the argument and instantly win. "Your verse doesn't have a type 4 multiverse so mine wins" type of arguments that get thrown around a lot, with the changes I've seen proposed it seems like you need a lot more proof to reach the high tiers, with bigger gaps between 1As, a lot more strict, which is how every system should be.

To be replaced by:

1. Your verse doesn't have things beyond time and space!
2. Your verse doesn't have R>F!
3. Your verse doesn't have platonic concepts!
4. Your verse doesn't have jungian archetypes!
5. Your verse doesn't have divine simplicity!
6. Your verse doesn't have apophatic theology!
7. Your verse doesn't have omnipotence!

Type IV multiverses are still going to be Low 1-A, btw, so that'll get thrown around a lot too.

As far as I can tell, there will not be more proof to reach high tiers. Ultima is vastly loosening the burden of proof for being beyond dimensions, allowing R>F to automatically jump to beyond dimensions, and allowing multiple philosophical concepts that we didn't previously tier to reach tier 0.

I am very confident that there will be more 1-A and High 1-A characters, and think there will be more tier 0 verses, but not characters, due to SCP getting screwed over by the monad requirement.

 

[Arceus0x]

due to SCP getting screwed over by the monad requirement

Xenoblade clears due to having the Monado

 

[Padaruyos]

What's the monad requirement?

 

[Kairach]

To be replaced by:

1. Your verse doesn't have things beyond time and space!
2. Your verse doesn't have R>F!
3. Your verse doesn't have platonic concepts!
4. Your verse doesn't have jungian archetypes!
5. Your verse doesn't have divine simplicity!
6. Your verse doesn't have apophatic theology!
7. Your verse doesn't have omnipotence!

Type IV multiverses are still going to be Low 1-A, btw, so that'll get thrown around a lot too.

As far as I can tell, there will not be more proof to reach high tiers. Ultima is vastly loosening the burden of proof for being beyond dimensions, allowing R>F to automatically jump to beyond dimensions, and allowing multiple philosophical concepts that we didn't previously tier to reach tier 0.

I am very confident that there will be more 1-A and High 1-A characters, and think there will be more tier 0 verses, but not characters, due to SCP getting screwed over by the monad requirement.

I get your point, but I am biased, I've been in power scaling for about a year now and have seen many verses that should be respected get hard slandered because of not using math, it's one thing to say a verse doesn't scale high but another thing to say a verse is trash because it doesn't reach tier 0. A lot of verses that are just way better written with much better cosmology get slung to the bottom of 1A or 1B because it doesn't follow the math meta, and I'm not saying there won't be a philosophy or R>F meta, there 100% will be, but a lot of better written verses work on these concepts so I see no problem with the new system.

 

[Eseseso]

1. What are Type IV multiverses, again?

2.

The series ending up in higher tiers, before or after this change, are not the better written ones.

GLARES AT ALL THE BATTLEBOARD-WRITTEN ISEKAI VERSES THAT ARE IN TIER 1 WITH FLAT PLOTS AND CHARACTERS

 

[Agnaa]

What's the monad requirement?

Having multiple different characters at tier 0 disqualifies those characters from being tier 0, even if they meet the other requirements.

There can still be multiple pages for a verse that land at tier 0, either due to them being different aspects of the same being, or by being granted power by the tier 0 being, but there cannot be different entities at tier 0 from their own merit.

I get your point, but I am biased, I've been in power scaling for about a year now and have seen many verses that should be respected get hard slandered because of not using math, it's one thing to say a verse doesn't scale high but another thing to say a verse is trash because it doesn't reach tier 0. A lot of verses that are just way better written with much better cosmology get slung to the bottom of 1A or 1B because it doesn't follow the math meta, and I'm not saying there won't be a philosophy or R>F meta, there 100% will be, but a lot of better written verses work on these concepts so I see no problem with the new system.

I've been in it for about 7 years. At that time, vsbw itself was in a philosophy meta. It sucked. We had to argue about stuff like this because it said:

According to the object's documentation (SCP-609-A, as described below), SCP-609 is intended to be a literalistic embodiment of Plato's theory of form. Researchers have conjectured that SCP-609 can be controlled through visualization because SCP-609-1 and the concept of SCP-609-1 are the same object, and that SCP-609-1 cannot be damaged or otherwise mutilated because SCP-609-1 is a manifestation of an immutable metaphysical form.

• IT CAN GO ANYWHERE! Think real hard of any place fun times can be had. Ontological 6-Ball™ is probably there already!

• IT POSSESSES THE HIGHEST AND MOST FUNDAMENTAL KIND OF REALITY! All other objects which share its form are imperfect reflections of its ultimate truth!

1. What are Type IV multiverses, again?

A multiverse where all mathematically consistent/coherent objects physically exist.

 

[Kairach]

Would there not still be tier 0 SCPs? There many different canons so one canon might have a monad requirement. Also SCP taking up like 70% of tier 0 right now is just awful, it's favored here, and with that same type of mentality there should be many more boundless characters from the verses that reach tier 0 as of now, so pushing it to only one boundless character a verse is one of the best things this change will make. Also is Warhammer keeping it's 1A?

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Would there not still be tier 0 SCPs? There many different canons so one canon might have a monad requirement. Also SCP taking up like 70% of tier 0 right now is just awful, it's favored here, and with that same type of mentality there should be many more boundless characters from the verses that reach tier 0 as of now, so pushing it to only one boundless character a verse is one of the best things this change will make. Also is Warhammer keeping it's 1A?

There are no monads in the whole setting, as far as anyone on this wiki knows.

 

[Eseseso]

Also SCP taking up like 70% of tier 0 right now is just awful, it's favored here, and with that same type of mentality there should be many more boundless characters from the verses that reach tier 0 as of now, so pushing it to only one boundless character a verse is one of the best things this change will make.

Facts.

 

[Kairach]

There are no monads in the whole setting, as far as anyone on this wiki knows.

With the multiple canons argument you could probably find one if dug for long enough.

 

[Agnaa]

Would there not still be tier 0 SCPs? There many different canons so one canon might have a monad requirement.

Maybe, by sheer coincidence of happening to land at the top of a hierarchy, but probably not by deliberate design.

Also SCP taking up like 70% of tier 0 right now is just awful

Yeah, but there's other ways to approach that.

it's favored here

Funny to see this, considering how the current tiering system, when implemented, heavily nerfed SCP, and considering how many staff members want SCP to be deleted, or have generally expressed discontent with SCP having so many tier 0s.

Also is Warhammer keeping it's 1A?

idk

There are no monads in the whole setting, as far as anyone on this wiki knows.

There are absolutely characters presented as monads, but then other writers come along and write things more all-encompassing than them.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

With the multiple canons argument you could probably find one if dug for long enough.

No, you could not. The SCP Foundation's whole cosmology gimmick is that all canons are part of a "mega-multiverse" governed by higher entities, and having things above you automatically disqualifies you from Tier 0.

There are absolutely characters presented as monads, but then other writers come along and write things more all-encompassing than them.

Show me one.

 

[Kairach]

Funny to see this, considering how the current tiering system, when implemented, heavily nerfed SCP, and considering how many staff members want SCP to be deleted, or have generally expressed discontent with SCP having so many tier 0s.

I have seen a lot of posts about these topics but it still doesn't answer why SCP has so many 0s, there are verses like Elder Scrolls that is just as big with only 2 tier 0s.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

I have seen a lot of posts about these topics but it still doesn't answer why SCP has so many 0s, there are verses like Elder Scrolls that is just as big with only 2 tier 0s.

TES absolutely isn't "just as big" as SCP under the old system.

 

[Agnaa]

Show me one.

The All-Mighty.

He-Who-Made-Light and He-Who-Made-Dark seem to have a "two aspects of a monad" vibe, imo.

I have seen a lot of posts about these topics but it still doesn't answer why SCP has so many 0s, there are verses like Elder Scrolls that is just as big with only 2 tier 0s.

Because they don't have 7000 characters, 40 of which were given special boy tier 0 versions.

 

[Kairach]

No, you could not. The SCP Foundation's whole cosmology gimmick is that all canons are part of a "mega-multiverse" governed by higher entities, and having things above you automatically disqualifies you from Tier 0.

Thank you. So what you're saying is that SCP writers are going to have a massive war over who gets the number one spot, this would be very interesting to watch.

 

[Agnaa]

Thank you. So what you're saying is that SCP writers are going to have a massive war over who gets the number one spot, this would be very interesting to watch.

No, most of them don't care.

 

[Kairach]

TES absolutely isn't "just as big" as SCP under the old system.

If you're looking at it with an outsider view point and your only info is the articles on this wiki about it then yes, but there is so much to that verse that doesn't get any light on here.

 

[Deagonx]

While my personal opinion still leans against this revision, I think it sucks that content/thread/calc mods aren't counted, so I'll move my vote to align with their general will; the agree column.

 

[Kairach]

No, most of them don't care.

Can you show me a statement from every SCP writer saying that they don't care about scaling?

 

[Phoenks]

The moment the tiering system changes and the verse gets downgraded we going to see an ultimate monad thing in SCP guaranteed

 

[deonment]

The series ending up in higher tiers, before or after this change, are not the better written ones.

LoTR:

 

[AbaddonTheDisappointment]

Also is Warhammer keeping it's 1A?

Blackcurrant has asked Ultima directly and Ultima said yes from what he recalled of the cosmology

If anything we get upgraded since the Low 1-A layer we have for the Warp would just be bumped to a full 1-A