• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

The commoners thread: Discussing Ultima's "On the Many, Many Incoherences of the Tiering System"

Status
Not open for further replies.
Isn't this moreso a problem with reality equalization in general, than it is with the tiering system?
I don't think so, really. I never thought it made a lot of sense to assign much weight to the different types or levels of reality rather than just assuming things are real. Of course SAO is a video game, but in-game Kirito would still beat up real life Kayaba
 
Isn't this moreso a problem with reality equalization in general, than it is with the tiering system?
this issue is being overblown, its perfectly fine to treat virtual worlds as 3 dimensional or above spaces to scale they, as long as you dont scale it to anyone outside the virtual world. Otherwise you have nothing to scale. Treat the virtual world as its own fictional verse. Otherwise you have braindead takes like "lmao umineko tier 11 because not real featherine human level jajaja xd"
 
I mean, let's be real, in the real world, our world, fiction also exists as collective electric impulses in our brains.
I would say no to that. Fiction isn't composed of electrical impulses, rather, impulses in the brain are just used to signal and represent the ideas in fiction. The representation itself has no physical existence.

A comic book (the object) functions about the same way. It conveys the idea of what it has drawn inside of it, to us. The fiction is simply what the drawings and dialogue in the book represent, rather than the literal molecules and stuff that make it up.
 
lmao umineko tier 11 because not real featherine human level jajaja xd goku victim
FZNWNtSVEAAI42s.jpg
 
I would say no to that. Fiction isn't composed of electrical impulses, rather, impulses in the brain are just used to signal and represent the ideas in fiction. The representation itself has no physical existence.

A comic book (the object) functions about the same way. It conveys the idea of what it has drawn inside of it, to us. The fiction is simply what the drawings and dialogue in the book represent, rather than the literal molecules and stuff that make it up.
We will just have to disagree. Everything that exists, even our ideas and thoughts can be explained using physics and standard model. Fiction is just a bunch of interactions with particles in our head. The "idea" is just that. There isn't something deeper. The idea is a bunch of electrons and particles.
 
as a fictional character he wouldn't be able to affect me in any way.
You also can't affect Superman in any way. What does a "fight" mean in a context where your opponent doesn't exist? What is "winning" if you cannot harm or kill your opponent and they cannot harm or kill you?

If we were to fight in the same level of reality, it would be another story.
Which should be the obvious premise for any discussion of this type.
 
You also can't affect Superman in any way. What does a "fight" mean in a context where your opponent doesn't exist? What is "winning" if you cannot harm or kill your opponent and they cannot harm or kill you?
We couldn't affect each other due to living in different layers of reality and fiction but that doesn't mean that every character in fiction is unable to affect lower levels of reality. It would depend on their powerset and abilities. There are lots of characters capable of controlling technology, concepts, ideas, stories, etc so a character from baseline reality affecting lower realities isn't impossible.

Or just don't make fights with characters from different tiers at all, that would be a stomp or a stalemate. Barely anyone puts Tier 11s against characters of higher tiers because most can't affect realms that are actually real.
Which should be the obvious premise for any discussion of this type.
It should not. You would be going out of your way to put those characters in the same reality despite the fact that realistically, they shouldn't be. You are all doing it for the sake of discussion rather than accuracy.

If removing reality equalization prevents current matchups from happening, just make new matchups with characters from the same tier. There is no need to inflate the capabilities of fiction-inside-fiction characters.
 
You also can't affect Superman in any way. What does a "fight" mean in a context where your opponent doesn't exist? What is "winning" if you cannot harm or kill your opponent and they cannot harm or kill you?
I think this idea is getting lost in this whole debate. The tiers are for attack potency.

If characters in the higher layer cannot interact with the lower layers, then there is zero evidence that they can hurt characters of that level from other fictions. They should get an unknown tier.
 
On "Irrelevant Speed," here is my quickest run-down of what that actually means:

Speed is defined as the rate at which a character can move.

Movement is the changing of positions.

Positions are points in space, which are defined by coordinates.

Coordinates are a product of dimensionality - Points along axes. This can be extrapolated to every degree of spatial existence. Which is why everything in the current system can currently fit into "Immeasurable." All movements are still defined by changing in positions over a period of time, even if said "time" is unquantifiable by the standard speed formula. This is because nothing is ever actually treated as being outside of these concepts entirely.

However, in Ultima's system, 1-A characters are superior in 'quality' to spatial existence. So all of the things I've mentioned above can no longer apply to them.

Thus, their "Speed" is Inapplicable, as they have transcended the concepts that speed as a concept relies on (space, time, etc).

In this way, no current rating of speed can currently define their existence or "movements" they make on the layers they exist on. "Immeasurable" is still defined by moving beyond linear time, and can be quantified within the universal concepts of space and time. This can't apply to 1-A beings in the Ultima system.

Hence, why I believe some form of "irrelevant" will see its place if the new system comes into fruition.

But, some people might be mistaken. This "speed" isn't a form of quickness, rather, it's mostly just a qualitive superiority to speed itself, rendering speed irrelevant when discussing the characters who qualify. It can't really be compared in the same way that something like immeasurable speed can be compared to infinite speed, since it's fundamentally not the same thing.

It's a lack of speed via transcending what speed is.
 
that doesn't mean that every character in fiction is unable to affect lower levels of reality. It would depend on their powerset and abilities.
Alternatively, you could just say any situation in which a character can affect fiction is just not a true Reality-Fiction relationship.

It should not. You would be going out of your way to put those characters in the same reality despite the fact that realistically, they shouldn't be. You are all doing it for the sake of discussion rather than accuracy.

If removing reality equalization prevents current matchups from happening, just make new matchups with characters from the same tier. There is no need to inflate the capabilities of fiction-inside-fiction characters.
This is wrong. All characters are equally fictional. The only way to consider any of them as being above or below each other is to both a) consider them real and b) arbitrarily decide that some layers of nothing are better than other layers of nothing. The approach you're taking is inconsistent, you're stopping the train of thought before it arrives at its conclusion.

Naruto and Featherine are both equally powerless nothings. The only way to be "truly accurate" is to consider no fictional character as having any power whatsoever and then I guess we'd just be indexing real things and people.
 
On "Irrelevant Speed," here is my quickest run-down of what that actually means:

Speed is defined as the rate at which a character can move.

Movement is the changing of positions.

Positions are points in space, which are defined by coordinates.

Coordinates are a product of dimensionality - Points along axes. This can be extrapolated to every degree of spatial existence. Which is why everything in the current system can currently fit into "Immeasurable." All movements are still defined by changing in positions over a period of time, even if said "time" is unquantifiable by the standard speed formula. This is because nothing is ever actually treated as being outside of these concepts entirely.

However, in Ultima's system, 1-A characters are superior in 'quality' to spatial existence. So all of the things I've mentioned above can no longer apply to them.

Thus, their "Speed" is Inapplicable, as they have transcended the concepts that speed as a concept relies on (space, time, etc).

In this way, no current rating of speed can currently define their existence or "movements" they make on the layers they exist on. "Immeasurable" is still defined by moving beyond linear time, and can be quantified within the universal concepts of space and time. This can't apply to 1-A beings in the Ultima system.

Hence, why I believe some form of "irrelevant" will see its place if the new system comes into fruition.

But, some people might be mistaken. This "speed" isn't a form of quickness, rather, it's mostly just a qualitive superiority to speed itself, rendering speed irrelevant when discussing the characters who qualify. It can't really be compared in the same way that something like immeasurable speed can be compared to infinite speed, since it's fundamentally not the same thing.

It's a lack of speed via transcending what speed is.
When considering Ultima's elaboration on the importance of category errors, the implementation of something akin to Irrelevant speed to the system seems like an inevitability, even if the intention to do so hasn't been expressed yet. If speed is a measure of how fast someone can move through a space, then within the constraints of how R>F transcendence is defined, asking how fast a 'real' person can move through a fictional space is absurd.
 
However, in Ultima's system, 1-A characters are superior in 'quality' to spatial existence. So all of the things I've mentioned above can no longer apply to them.

Thus, their "Speed" is Inapplicable, as they have transcended the concepts that speed as a concept relies on (space, time, etc).
Just because the layer transcends the lower layer, that doesn't mean the higher layer uses an entirely different system of math, and that space and time doesn't exist in the higher layers. The distance formula will still work in higher layers.
 
then within the constraints of how R>F transcendence is defined, asking how fast a 'real' person can move through a fictional space is absurd.
I agree, but doesn't this only make speed irrelevant relationally? As in, don't we still need to determine their speed on their own level of reality for when they are in match ups against people who are also in their own level of reality?
 
I can't be bothered to care whether this wiki changes their reality equalization standards or not. Nor I have the will to try to argue my way into making changes.

I'll simply stop arguing about it and go do something more entertaining. I'm not a person that likes to debate or argue afterall. Go do that with someone else. I'm going to go gaming.
 
Just because the layer transcends the lower layer, that doesn't mean the higher layer uses an entirely different system of math, and that space and time doesn't exist in the higher layers. The distance formula will still world in higher layers.
If it is to qualify for 1-A on Ultima's system, then utilizing a different, superior system of space-time would be necessary. If it uses the same one, then their existence could still be quantified within the standard universal concepts of space and time and couldn't reach past High 1-B.

When considering Ultima's elaboration on the importance of category errors, the implementation of something akin to Irrelevant speed to the system seems like an inevitability, even if the intention to do so hasn't been expressed yet. If speed is a measure of how fast someone can move through a space, then within the constraints of how R>F transcendence is defined, asking how fast a 'real' person can move through a fictional space is absurd.
Yeah, it's pretty inevitable with what he is suggesting.

I just wanted to clarify what Irrelevant speed is again, because the last time I did it on this thread, people acted as though I was spouting nonsense xD
 
I can't be bothered to care whether this wiki changes their reality equalization standards or not. Nor I have the will to try to argue my way into making changes.

I'll simply stop arguing about it and go do something more entertaining. I'm not a person that likes to debate or argue afterall. Go do that with someone else. I'm going to go gaming.
Based chad gamer deidalius
 
If it is to qualify for 1-A on Ultima's system, then utilizing a different, superior system of space-time would be necessary. If it uses the same one, then their existence could still be quantified within the standard universal concepts of space and time and couldn't reach past High 1-B.
That's not true. The only difference is that one is fiction and one is real. The differences between reality and fiction cannot be equated to the differences with dimenisonality. It does not mean that higher layers all use a different alien version of math. 1+1 = 2 is the same for all layers of reality unless the story specifically says it's not (and you can have a reality where 1+1 =/= 2, without R>F).
 
That's not true. The only difference is that one is fiction and one is real. The differences between reality and fiction cannot be equated to the differences with dimenisonality. It does not mean that higher layers all use a different alien version of math. 1+1 = 2 is the same for all layers of reality unless the story specifically says it's not (and you can have a reality where 1+1 =/= 2, without R>F).
I never said anything about math in the post you quoted. I specified "space-time," and went further, clarifying the "standard" universal concepts of space and time.

Math is used to quantify space and time, but is distinctly separate from the concepts themselves, so it has no affect on what I'm talking about.

I'm not saying that math can't be used to also quantify higher layers. But I am saying that standard concepts of space and time will no longer apply to those higher layers.
 
I agree, but doesn't this only make speed irrelevant relationally? As in, don't we still need to determine their speed on their own level of reality for when they are in match ups against people who are also in their own level of reality?
for characters that are still within the constraints of space-time within their layer, probably, maybe something like

Irrelevant ( as a character with a qualitative transcendence above the concept of space-time, the concept of speed is completely irrelevant to this character in relation to things they view as fiction), (Rating) otherwise.
 
That is not the same arguement at all.
What Deidalius proposed was mainly for verses that almost entirely take place inside of "fake worlds" like virtual realities (think of The Matrix,Swort Art Online,Amazing Digital Circus etc.) which are fictional/not real even inside of worlds that are fictional/not real (Double fictional as I like to call them).
My understanding is that it wouldn't apply to tier 1 characters at all. It wouldn't be used to downplay Scp-3812 and wank Kirito to be above all fiction or something stupid like that.
 
That is not the same arguement at all.
What Deidalius proposed was mainly for verses that almost entirely take place inside of "fake worlds" like virtual realities (think of The Matrix,Swort Art Online,Amazing Digital Circus etc.) which are fictional/not real even inside of worlds that are fictional/not real (Double fictional as I like to call them).
My understanding is that it wouldn't apply to tier 1 characters at all. It wouldn't be used to downplay Scp-3812 and wank Kirito to be above all fiction or something stupid like that.
The Matrix, SAO, and ADC all don't qualify for RFT in the first place, so they're irrelevant.
 
I never said anything about math in the post you quoted. I specified "space-time," and went further, clarifying the normal concepts of space and time.

Math is used to quantify space and time, but is distinctly separate from the concepts themselves, so it has no affect on what I'm talking about.

I'm not saying that math can't be used to also quantify higher layers. But I am saying that standard concepts of space and time will no longer apply to those higher layers.
Spacetime is mathematical concept. You measure speed using math. D/T = S. That formula wouldn't change in higher layers.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top