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The commoners thread: Discussing Ultima's "On the Many, Many Incoherences of the Tiering System"

IdiosyncraticLawyer said:
Already been thoroughly rejected.
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That is not the same arguement at all.
What Deidalius proposed was mainly for verses that almost entirely take place inside of "fake worlds" like virtual realities (think of The Matrix,Swort Art Online,Amazing Digital Circus etc.) which are fictional/not real even inside of worlds that are fictional/not real (Double fictional as I like to call them).
My understanding is that it wouldn't apply to tier 1 characters at all. It wouldn't be used to downplay Scp-3812 and wank Kirito to be above all fiction or something stupid like that.
 
Blunt_Claw said:
That is not the same arguement at all.
What Deidalius proposed was mainly for verses that almost entirely take place inside of "fake worlds" like virtual realities (think of The Matrix,Swort Art Online,Amazing Digital Circus etc.) which are fictional/not real even inside of worlds that are fictional/not real (Double fictional as I like to call them).
My understanding is that it wouldn't apply to tier 1 characters at all. It wouldn't be used to downplay Scp-3812 and wank Kirito to be above all fiction or something stupid like that.
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The Matrix, SAO, and ADC all don't qualify for RFT in the first place, so they're irrelevant.
 
Phoenks said:
I never said anything about math in the post you quoted. I specified "space-time," and went further, clarifying the normal concepts of space and time.

Math is used to quantify space and time, but is distinctly separate from the concepts themselves, so it has no affect on what I'm talking about.

I'm not saying that math can't be used to also quantify higher layers. But I am saying that standard concepts of space and time will no longer apply to those higher layers.
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Spacetime is mathematical concept. You measure speed using math. D/T = S. That formula wouldn't change in higher layers.
 
Iamunanimousinthat said:
Spacetime is mathematical concept. You measure speed using math. D/T = S. That formula wouldn't change in higher layers.
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It would change. Distance is dependent on spatial coordinates, which are based in spatial axes.

1-A would transcend the concept of space.

So, "D" can't be measured or applied in a "higher layer," because the concept of space is irrelevant there. You would need to substitute it for some higher (transcendental) concept of space/distance, which would be distinctly different from the one used in the standard formula. So it wouldn't even end up being the same formula.

If you disagree with Ultima's system, then that's one thing, but within this system, I'm quite certain this is how it'd work.
 
Blunt_Claw said:
Then irrelevant speed would be applied to characters that trancend space-time but wouldn't be a given to RFT without further evidence. (At least I assume so,I'm new here.)
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Then it has no difference to immeasurable speed then which is why it was removed.

Phoenks said:
It would change. Distance is dependent on spatial coordinates, which are based in spatial axes.

1-A would transcend the concept of space.

So, "D" can't be measured or applied in a "higher layer," because the concept of space is irrelevant there. You would need to substitute it for some higher (transcendental) concept of space/distance, which would be distinctly different from the one used in the standard formula. So it wouldn't even end up being the same formula.

If you disagree with Ultima's system, then that's one thing, but within this system, I'm quite certain this is how it'd work.
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1-A would not necessarily transcend the concept of space. Characters are getting 1-A for R>F transcendence. Characters can transcend lower layers, but still have the concept of space on their own layer, and still adhere to the speed formula. Higher transcendental concept of space/distance would be exactly like the lower regular concept of space distance. The only difference is one is reality and the other fiction.
 
Iamunanimousinthat said:
1-A would not necessarily transcend the concept of space. Characters are getting 1-A for R>F transcendence. Characters can transcend lower layers, but still have the concept of space on their own layer, and still adhere to the speed formula. Higher transcendental concept of space/distance would be exactly like the lower regular concept of space distance. The only difference is one is reality and the other fiction.
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I highlighted this part here, because that's quite a BIG difference, lol. If one of the formulas is fiction, then it is literally irrelevant (nonexistent) in comparison to the formula that is considered reality.

You are essentially proving what I'm saying here. They aren't at all measuring the same properties. A fictional formula can only measure things that are considered nonexistent relative to the things that the "real" formula is measuring. So there's clearly a disconnect between the very concepts they are based upon. One of the concepts would literally be nonexistent compared to the real concept. You can't equate the two in any capacity.

Additionally, you said "1-A would not necessarily transcend the concept of space," this is incorrect. You might want to reread the Ultima thread.

R>F is treated as being qualitatively superior to the universal concept of space as a whole. And it is one of the few things that can even qualify for 1-A.
 
Phoenks said:
I highlighted this part here, because that's quite a BIG difference, lol. If one of the formulas is fiction, then it is literally irrelevant (nonexistent) in comparison to the formula that is considered reality.

You are essentially proving what I'm saying here. They aren't at all measuring the same properties. A fictional formula can only measure things that are considered nonexistent relative to the things that the "real" formula is measuring. So there's clearly a disconnect between the very concepts they are based upon. One of the concepts would literally be nonexistent compared to the real concept. You can't equate the two in any capacity.

Additionally, you said "1-A would not necessarily transcend the concept of space," this is incorrect. You might want to reread the Ultima thread.

R>F is treated as being qualitatively superior to the universal concept of space as a whole. And it is one of the few things that can even qualify for 1-A.
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I would say the difference is not that big of a deal.

One is fictional distance over fictional time, to get fiction speed and the other is real distance over real time to get real speed. You'd measure distance in the fictional world as fictional meters and the distance in the real world as real meters.

Also I did read the thread. R>F is being qualitatively superior to the concepts of space in the lower layer. It doesn't mean that the higher layers don't have their own concepts of space they adhere.
 
Iamunanimousinthat said:
I would say the difference is not that big of a deal.

One is fictional distance over fictional time, to get fiction speed and the other is real distance over real time to get real speed. You'd measure distance in the fictional world as fictional meters and the distance in the real world as real meters.

Also I did read the thread. R>F is being qualitatively superior to the concepts of space in the lower layer. It doesn't mean that the higher layers don't have their own concepts of space they adhere.
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The whole point is that 1-A characters are above what is considered to be "legitimate" space-time hence why they are tier 1-A and not 10-B.
It's not fictional space-time vs real space-time,it's real space-time vs superior space-time.
 
Blunt_Claw said:
The whole point is that 1-A characters are above what is considered to be "legitimate" space-time hence why they are tier 1-A and not 10-B.
It's not fictional space-time vs real space-time,it's real space-time vs superior space-time.
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The entire point is predicated on the idea that reality is superior to fiction. If 1-A was made strictly to characters above the concept of spacetime, in all layers of reality, then almost no one will be 1-A, and lots of characters with R>F will be relegated to tier 2 due to adhering to spacetime in their own layers.
 
1-A characters are above what is considered to be legitimate non-fictional space-time. 1-A characters don't make all the characters in a lower tier fictional. Those lower tier characters are considered to be real but are nothing in comparison to 1-A.
 
Blunt_Claw said:
1-A characters are above what is considered to be legitimate non-fictional space-time. 1-A characters don't make all the characters in a lower tier fictional. Those lower tier characters are considered to be real but are nothing in comparison to 1-A.
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That's not what's being proposed. All characters who see a layer as fictional will be getting 1-A.
 
I don't know what you want me to say, the statement there is correct. I never said anything against that.

Iamunanimousinthat said:
Also I did read the thread. R>F is being qualitatively superior to the concepts of space in the lower layer. It doesn't mean that the higher layers don't have their own concepts of space they adhere.
Click to expand...

So, we agree? I'm not really sure where your disagreement is anymore.

When I say that 1-A is beyond the universal concepts of space and time, I am referring to the "baseline" layer of reality, not extending out to meta-space and whatnot, cause that's a whole different thing.

The standard concept of speed would not apply to anything beyond the standard universal concepts of space and time. So even if there is some kind of meta-space beyond that, it would still be irrelevant in regards to what we use to measure speed on the wiki at the moment.
 
Phoenks said:
I don't know what you want me to say, the statement there is correct. I never said anything against that.



So, we agree? I'm not really sure where your disagreement is anymore.

When I say that 1-A is beyond the universal concepts of space and time, I am referring to the "baseline" layer of reality, not extending out to meta-space and whatnot, cause that's a whole different thing.
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And "Baseline" reality is considered real. Therefore 1-A is superior to real space-time.
 
Phoenks said:
The standard concept of speed would not apply to anything beyond the standard universal concepts of space and time. So even if there is some kind of meta-space beyond that, it would still be irrelevant in regards to what we use to measure speed on the wiki at the moment.
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the standard concept of speed would apply to all layers unless the story says other wise.

The 1-A characters will view the lower layers as if they are nothing. Irreverent speed for being faster than nothing makes no sense. Those higher characters speed rating should be based upon their speed in their layer.
 
Iamunanimousinthat said:
the standard concept of speed would apply to all layers unless the story says other wise.
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Not really, that only applies if all layers that apply to the concept of dimensions being equal to all layers. Which becomes incoherent pretty easily when you have "transcending the concept of coordinates" be limited to all real numbers barely pushing past into alpeh 1 but still being bound by higher cardinal coordinates isn't objectively sound that's applying Mathematics to something that's not objectively Mathematical in premise. That's just playing it safe rather than being actually right.
 
Ikelaggan said:
Not really, that only applies if all layers that apply to the concept of dimensions being equal to all layers. Which becomes incoherent pretty easily when you have "transcending the concept of coordinates" be limited to all real numbers barely pushing past into alpeh 1 but still being bound by higher cardinal coordinates isn't objectively sound that's applying Mathematics to something that's not objectively Mathematical in premise. That's just playing it safe rather than being actually right.
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Yes really. When this proposal goes through, a regular three dimensional character that's just some dude, is going to be 1-A because he sees a lower layer as fiction. It has nothing to do with math or transcending mathematical concepts. It is literally "seeing something as fiction is superior" there is nothing more too it or greater explanation.

Sure, a verse can incorporate new and transcendent math and what not, but isn't a default for all 1-A. In fact, a verse can have transcendental math and still be lower than 1-A because it doesn't have R>F or qualitive superiority.
 
Iamunanimousinthat said:
Yes really. When this proposal goes through, a regular three dimensional character that's just some dude, is going to be 1-A because he sees a lower layer as fiction. It has nothing to do with math or transcending mathematical concepts. It is literally "seeing something as fiction is superior" there is nothing more too it or greater explanation.
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No, that's very much a over exaggeration to assume it works in that direction and not latter (1-A matrix isn't gonna be a thing). Yes Mathematics has nothing to do with it cause obviously no basis or axiom from a mathematical concept can reach 1-A in Ultima's proposal.
 
so what are the summary of this debate currently btw ? just for people able to follow the argument
 
Iamunanimousinthat said:
Yes really. When this proposal goes through, a regular three dimensional character that's just some dude, is going to be 1-A because he sees a lower layer as fiction.
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It's case by case, otherwise 1-A would be one of the most populated tiers on this site with the revision, because there are so many statements / showings of superiority to dreams, fictional worlds and lower realities across all of media. Think it highly depends on the context given and the verse itself.

Also wouldn't South Park be 1-A according to that logic?
 
BLS said:
It's case by case, otherwise 1-A would be one of the most populated tiers on this site with the revision, because there are so many statements / showings of superiority to dreams, fictional worlds and lower realities across all of media. Think it highly depends on the context given and the verse itself.

Also wouldn't South Park be 1-A according to that logic?
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There is still the requirement of establishing the baseline of the work first.
 
Ovy7 said:
This is a DT vs Ultima thread, it wold go on for 6 month, then 3 month break, then someone would randomly bump it and another 4 months long discussion would start.
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As the only staff member actively trying to clear out the staff forum backlog, which I only recently started making a dent in, that summarizes what I have to deal with daily pretty well.
 
Ovy7 said:
This is a DT vs Ultima thread, it wold go on for 6 month, then 3 month break, then someone would randomly bump it and another 4 months long discussion would start.
Click to expand...
And if the discussion is ever concluded, it will take 9 months for a thread to apply the changes to be created and then the discussion that was supposedly concluded starts again.
 
From DDM

But I think it's more so issues with things that haven't been yet updated. And some verses actually have a higher dimension more like a R>F type of transcendence, but treated like a regular quantitatively superior dimension. I know there have been a lot of controversies surrounding Marvel/DC cosmology revisions with the latter getting complaints about mistreatment compared to the former. But there is a realm called the 5th dimension that perceives 4-D universes as comic books and thus appears to be a R>F type of transcendence despite some universes having statements about 10 or 11 dimensions in the spacio-temporal context. Still don't know what the outcome would be, but we shall see.
Click to expand...

A little hope for DC fans.
 
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